Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[Dieterly]

Other famous current and FORMER PFT outfits:

Comair
ASA
ACA
removed
Chicago Express
Airtran (Valuejet)
Air South
COEX
Carnival
Miami Air
Fine Air
Arrow Air
SWA (sugarcoated PFT outfit)
Execjet

Any more?

 

[NEDude]

SWA IS NOT PFT!!!!!

Folks, let's get one thing straight here, Southwest is not in any way, shape or form, PFT. You do not pay SWA anything, NOT A CENT, for training. SWA simply requires you to have an FAA rating, one that is good everywhere, prior to starting your training.

PFT means you pay the company hiring you for required training that you cannot take anywhere else. You do not pay Southwest for the rating, and you can use it anywhere.

People may not like the fact that SWA requires a 737 type. That is fine. I do not like the fact that some domestic only operators still require an FCC radio certificate. But calling something you do not like PFT just for the sake of trashing it serves no purpose. Say you do not like, find a proper name for it, but do not call it PFT because it is not.

 

[CA1900]

That's a crock and you know it.

Requiring you to purchase a rating that's not even required by the FAA to occupy that right seat, and which every other 737 operator on the planet will provide for you at upgrade time is very much pay-for-training.

PFT means you pay the company hiring you for required training that you cannot take anywhere else.

No, PFT means paying for specialized training that's required by this specific job. The fact that you end up with a type rating is immaterial. And the fact that SWA isn't the one taking your money is no more relevant than when FlightSafety was taking it for the commuters.

...and you can use it anywhere.

OK, where else can I use it? It's not as if these other operators are going to put you straight into the left seat without upgrade training just because you have the type.

You may not have a problem with it, and that's fine, but PFT is PFT any way you want to disguise it. It's forcing the pilot to pay for a lot of the airplane-specific training to save the airline a few training dollars, and I think that stinks.

 

[Andy Neill]

Dieterly.

May I ask how it is that SkyWest made your PFT list? Perhaps I'll learn something.

 

[Jiminmem]

I don't know when Express I stopped its pay for training for those with the time, but it was definiteoy more then a year ago. I was hired almost 2 1/2 year ago and I didn't pay.

 

[NEDude]

A few things about SWA:

First the type rating does not save SWA much, if any, money at all. You must still go through indoc and systems training at SWA. Plus you have to go through new hire sim training at SWA, just like any other airline. Additionally you must pass an FAA monitored upgrade ride when you move to left seat. You must still go through IOE when upgrading to captain. And you must still have an FAA line check when upgrading. You go through the same rides when you upgrade, with or without a type rating. Having a type does not save me, or the company, any of the expense. The only difference is they don't fill out a new temporary airmans certificate at the end of your check ride. So where in the process does SWA save money if they still do the same process that everyone else has to do?

Second, where do you think the money is going when you pay flight safety for new hire training? You don't think your company has a nice financial arrangement with FSI for that training? If they didn't then the airline wouldn't be in business with FSI. Southwest does not get a kickback from anyone when you get a 737 type rating. So there is no financial gain there.

Third, the type rating you get is not company specific training that ceases to exist when you leave an airline. With PFT, when you leave the airline you have nothing, absolutely nothing, to show for your investment. When you get a type rating, you have something tangible that you can put on a resume. While most airlines may not specifically require it, when the industry is in a slow hiring phase, a type rating can help land you a job.

Lastly, any airline that requires an ATP is PFT under your definition. The ATP is not required to occupy the right seat in any airline and many airlines will provide it to you when you upgrade. And no airline is going to put you in the left seat to start out.

PFT is plainly paying your company for training that the FAA requires them to provide. This training is company specific and cannot be transeferred anywhere else. SWA does not fit that.

Just because you don't like something does not mean it is PFT. Call it something else, but don't apply a name that does not belong.

 

[Timebuilder]

Good point, NE Dude.

I was passed by for an FO job in March because I didn't have a type rating in the aircraft, and someone else did (along with a little time in type, too). I think that a 737 type shows the employer that you are trainable for their operation, and may give them a very low washout rate.

Do I like the SWA requirement? No. Do I think its PFT? No, because the "job" is a real job, in a plane requiring two pilots, and doesn't end at the end of 110, 250, or however many hours are a part of the PFT plan in question. A training contract without an up-front payment of cash at hiring wouldn't be PFT either, because the training contract is amortized by time. In a year or two of flying, you've made money and owe nothing.

Didn't this thread start out with Gulfstream? Is there dobt in anyone's mind that they are PFT, or are we having a friendly argument about that, too?

 

[bigD]

I think there's a communication problem here. There are two different definitions of PFT being used by different posters. This was kind of hashed out earlier on the thread, but it's coming up again.

Guys like Dieterly and CA1900 are using a very literal definition of PFT. You're paying for some training, and under that very broad definition I guess having to buy a type rating would somewhat qualify. But they're arguing semantics, because if they were actually following the thread at all they'd know that most of everyone here is calling PFT a situation where you're paying for not only some training (if any at all), but for the time and the job itself as well.

There's a HUGE difference between SWA wanting a type rating for their F/O's, and some 300 hour pilot spending 20K to play with the gear and radios of a 1900. By the generally accepted definition being used by almost all of the posters on this board, I doubt that any of the outfits on Dieterly's list would qualify.

 

[Dieterly]

Big D: The PFT was started by Comair in the early -90's, lot of airlines followed the concept, mainly by using Flight Safety as a training provider. Maybe Bobbysamd could chime in... Gulfstream and others just took it a step further.

NEDUDE: Do you work for SWA, 'cause some of claims are just pure lies. Like, ""Having a type does not save me, or the company, any of the expense.""

If it doesn't save you or the company any money, why do they require it then?

ANDY: Maybe I was wrong about SkyWest, but I thought they used to do the FlightSafety thing also. I'll correct it right away...

 

[Sppedmode]

Clarify Express I "PFT"

I just want to clarify the PFT requirements at Express I (prior 9-11)

If you had less than 1200 total and 200 multi: You pay the company $10,000 and they keep the money. I only know one guy (intern with 600 hrs) who had less than 1200 and "paid".

If you had between 1200-1500 total and 200-300 multi: You pay $10,000 up front, and are reimbursed over 30 months ($333.33/month).

No pay for over 1500 total and 300 multi.

I had heard that we weren't taking anymore guys with less than 1500 and 300 multi now, but with this new Gulfstream flow-thru/hiring, I hear that some guys have less than the requirements...so???

I'm curious what you guys think about the reimbursement? If you get the money back...is it really PFT??? Just like an opinion from outside the company. Thanks

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair and FSI P-F-T

I agree with Dieterly's recollection about Comair P-F-T and FSI being a P-F-T provider. I like the term, "provider." Aside from its regular school, I recall that Comair operated a parallel P-F-T program. Air Midwest had some kind of P-F-T program, too, before Mesa purchased it. FSI may well have been the P-F-T provider. Comair was hiring non-P-F-T pilots from the outside during the same time.

I can't really agree 100% that the 737 type for Southwest is really P-F-T. You will always have the type on your ticket and can market it to any company who wants it. I remember years ago that Southwest did not give sim rides as part of its interview process because all of its applicants had the type. Maybe that's changed. It seems to me that knowing you don't have to take a sim ride can ease a great deal of interview stress. On the other hand, some outfit in Phoenix, run by a SWA pilot, I believe, offered 737 types. I understood that this place had all the gouge for the Southwest interview.

I agree with Timebuilder's take on the requirement. I, too, don't think it is true P-F-T, nor do I like the requirement.

 

[LearLove]

PFT

OK I'll bite. Its easier to list the non PFT outfits than the one that did. First what quals as PFT (past, present or future)

1. Paying for sim
2. paying for ground school
3. paying for interview/interview sim
4. not being paid from day one
5. no per diem from day one (when away from base)
6. paying for book/manuals
7. paying for hotel when training is out of base
8. training contracts in any form
9. has an sic PFT program (e.i airnet)
Any company that does the above is a PFT company.

Now from my knowledge the only never PFT companies out there are: (and please correct me if I forget one or misidentify one)

1. Piedmont
2. US Airways (mainline)
3. Allegheny
4. Eagle (although I can't vouch for when they were many seperate companies, e.i. simmions ect.)
5. TSA (? I think - Also I can't believe the FAA just gave you guys a mx award. Your aircraft are the wort I've seen in the industry. Also on the TSA subject, could you guys stop scaring our pax in BGM. I'm getting sick of hearing pax complain)
6. Chalks ?
7. Mountain Air Cargo
8. Wiggins
9. Air Wiss

Please help me if I missed any.


Aother point I'd like to make. Delta and United are PFT. My father PFT with United in '76. He was hired to NY base and paid to stay in Denver for new hire training therefore PFT. Delta also does not pay while in training. Some other major also.

Also IMHO things like ERAU, ND, Dan Web ect. are PFT or just stupid. I mean pay almost 100,000 for a comm sel license when you could get pvt. thru ATP at you local FBO for under 10 grand.

Just some thoughts, I love you all, PFT too.
Happy Flying

 

[Timebuilder]

That's a pretty generous definition of PFT you have created there. I can't say that I agree with it.

Here's a question slightly off topic, maybe Andy or somone else can answer it: Skywest has an application fee ($50, I think...) that gets a mention in the hiring pac I downloaded. Is this what everyone does, or are they an exception? Seems a little steep to cover the cost of spending ten minutes determining if an applicant goes on to the next step. Would flyin at 500 call this PFT?

 

[AWACoff]

With that (correction) Gross generalization of a definition of PFT, then I PFTed at Great Lakes since I wasn't paid until I passed my checkride (technically I was paid to drive to ground school but that was a special case). They provided hotels...all I needed was to pay for food during ground school. Yep, I must be PFT trash...whatever.

 

[bobbysamd]

SkyWest App Fees

I paid something like $15-$25 in 1989 or '90. It was free before then. I applied and updated at that airline for six years. I even had a former student who had been hired there walk in an app for me, and I believe I included another check to ensure I hadn't fallen through the cracks. They returned the check and acknowledged I had paid before.

I don't remember all the places for which I ponied up app fees. It's something like the lottery - you pay your money, you takes your chances - not to mention a terrific profit center for these outfits.