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Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?
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NEDude
yada yada yada
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SWA IS NOT PFT!!!!!
Folks, let's get one thing straight here, Southwest is not in any way, shape or form, PFT. You do not pay SWA anything, NOT A CENT, for training. SWA simply requires you to have an FAA rating, one that is good everywhere, prior to starting your training.
PFT means you pay the company hiring you for required training that you cannot take anywhere else. You do not pay Southwest for the rating, and you can use it anywhere.
People may not like the fact that SWA requires a 737 type. That is fine. I do not like the fact that some domestic only operators still require an FCC radio certificate. But calling something you do not like PFT just for the sake of trashing it serves no purpose. Say you do not like, find a proper name for it, but do not call it PFT because it is not.
Folks, let's get one thing straight here, Southwest is not in any way, shape or form, PFT. You do not pay SWA anything, NOT A CENT, for training. SWA simply requires you to have an FAA rating, one that is good everywhere, prior to starting your training.
PFT means you pay the company hiring you for required training that you cannot take anywhere else. You do not pay Southwest for the rating, and you can use it anywhere.
People may not like the fact that SWA requires a 737 type. That is fine. I do not like the fact that some domestic only operators still require an FCC radio certificate. But calling something you do not like PFT just for the sake of trashing it serves no purpose. Say you do not like, find a proper name for it, but do not call it PFT because it is not.
CA1900
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That's a crock and you know it.
Requiring you to purchase a rating that's not even required by the FAA to occupy that right seat, and which every other 737 operator on the planet will provide for you at upgrade time is very much pay-for-training.
No, PFT means paying for specialized training that's required by this specific job. The fact that you end up with a type rating is immaterial. And the fact that SWA isn't the one taking your money is no more relevant than when FlightSafety was taking it for the commuters.
OK, where else can I use it? It's not as if these other operators are going to put you straight into the left seat without upgrade training just because you have the type.
You may not have a problem with it, and that's fine, but PFT is PFT any way you want to disguise it. It's forcing the pilot to pay for a lot of the airplane-specific training to save the airline a few training dollars, and I think that stinks.
Requiring you to purchase a rating that's not even required by the FAA to occupy that right seat, and which every other 737 operator on the planet will provide for you at upgrade time is very much pay-for-training.
No, PFT means paying for specialized training that's required by this specific job. The fact that you end up with a type rating is immaterial. And the fact that SWA isn't the one taking your money is no more relevant than when FlightSafety was taking it for the commuters.
OK, where else can I use it? It's not as if these other operators are going to put you straight into the left seat without upgrade training just because you have the type.
You may not have a problem with it, and that's fine, but PFT is PFT any way you want to disguise it. It's forcing the pilot to pay for a lot of the airplane-specific training to save the airline a few training dollars, and I think that stinks.
Andy Neill
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NEDude
yada yada yada
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A few things about SWA:
First the type rating does not save SWA much, if any, money at all. You must still go through indoc and systems training at SWA. Plus you have to go through new hire sim training at SWA, just like any other airline. Additionally you must pass an FAA monitored upgrade ride when you move to left seat. You must still go through IOE when upgrading to captain. And you must still have an FAA line check when upgrading. You go through the same rides when you upgrade, with or without a type rating. Having a type does not save me, or the company, any of the expense. The only difference is they don't fill out a new temporary airmans certificate at the end of your check ride. So where in the process does SWA save money if they still do the same process that everyone else has to do?
Second, where do you think the money is going when you pay flight safety for new hire training? You don't think your company has a nice financial arrangement with FSI for that training? If they didn't then the airline wouldn't be in business with FSI. Southwest does not get a kickback from anyone when you get a 737 type rating. So there is no financial gain there.
Third, the type rating you get is not company specific training that ceases to exist when you leave an airline. With PFT, when you leave the airline you have nothing, absolutely nothing, to show for your investment. When you get a type rating, you have something tangible that you can put on a resume. While most airlines may not specifically require it, when the industry is in a slow hiring phase, a type rating can help land you a job.
Lastly, any airline that requires an ATP is PFT under your definition. The ATP is not required to occupy the right seat in any airline and many airlines will provide it to you when you upgrade. And no airline is going to put you in the left seat to start out.
PFT is plainly paying your company for training that the FAA requires them to provide. This training is company specific and cannot be transeferred anywhere else. SWA does not fit that.
Just because you don't like something does not mean it is PFT. Call it something else, but don't apply a name that does not belong.
First the type rating does not save SWA much, if any, money at all. You must still go through indoc and systems training at SWA. Plus you have to go through new hire sim training at SWA, just like any other airline. Additionally you must pass an FAA monitored upgrade ride when you move to left seat. You must still go through IOE when upgrading to captain. And you must still have an FAA line check when upgrading. You go through the same rides when you upgrade, with or without a type rating. Having a type does not save me, or the company, any of the expense. The only difference is they don't fill out a new temporary airmans certificate at the end of your check ride. So where in the process does SWA save money if they still do the same process that everyone else has to do?
Second, where do you think the money is going when you pay flight safety for new hire training? You don't think your company has a nice financial arrangement with FSI for that training? If they didn't then the airline wouldn't be in business with FSI. Southwest does not get a kickback from anyone when you get a 737 type rating. So there is no financial gain there.
Third, the type rating you get is not company specific training that ceases to exist when you leave an airline. With PFT, when you leave the airline you have nothing, absolutely nothing, to show for your investment. When you get a type rating, you have something tangible that you can put on a resume. While most airlines may not specifically require it, when the industry is in a slow hiring phase, a type rating can help land you a job.
Lastly, any airline that requires an ATP is PFT under your definition. The ATP is not required to occupy the right seat in any airline and many airlines will provide it to you when you upgrade. And no airline is going to put you in the left seat to start out.
PFT is plainly paying your company for training that the FAA requires them to provide. This training is company specific and cannot be transeferred anywhere else. SWA does not fit that.
Just because you don't like something does not mean it is PFT. Call it something else, but don't apply a name that does not belong.
Timebuilder
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Good point, NE Dude.
I was passed by for an FO job in March because I didn't have a type rating in the aircraft, and someone else did (along with a little time in type, too). I think that a 737 type shows the employer that you are trainable for their operation, and may give them a very low washout rate.
Do I like the SWA requirement? No. Do I think its PFT? No, because the "job" is a real job, in a plane requiring two pilots, and doesn't end at the end of 110, 250, or however many hours are a part of the PFT plan in question. A training contract without an up-front payment of cash at hiring wouldn't be PFT either, because the training contract is amortized by time. In a year or two of flying, you've made money and owe nothing.
Didn't this thread start out with Gulfstream? Is there dobt in anyone's mind that they are PFT, or are we having a friendly argument about that, too?
I was passed by for an FO job in March because I didn't have a type rating in the aircraft, and someone else did (along with a little time in type, too). I think that a 737 type shows the employer that you are trainable for their operation, and may give them a very low washout rate.
Do I like the SWA requirement? No. Do I think its PFT? No, because the "job" is a real job, in a plane requiring two pilots, and doesn't end at the end of 110, 250, or however many hours are a part of the PFT plan in question. A training contract without an up-front payment of cash at hiring wouldn't be PFT either, because the training contract is amortized by time. In a year or two of flying, you've made money and owe nothing.
Didn't this thread start out with Gulfstream? Is there dobt in anyone's mind that they are PFT, or are we having a friendly argument about that, too?
bigD
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I think there's a communication problem here. There are two different definitions of PFT being used by different posters. This was kind of hashed out earlier on the thread, but it's coming up again.
Guys like Dieterly and CA1900 are using a very literal definition of PFT. You're paying for some training, and under that very broad definition I guess having to buy a type rating would somewhat qualify. But they're arguing semantics, because if they were actually following the thread at all they'd know that most of everyone here is calling PFT a situation where you're paying for not only some training (if any at all), but for the time and the job itself as well.
There's a HUGE difference between SWA wanting a type rating for their F/O's, and some 300 hour pilot spending 20K to play with the gear and radios of a 1900. By the generally accepted definition being used by almost all of the posters on this board, I doubt that any of the outfits on Dieterly's list would qualify.
Guys like Dieterly and CA1900 are using a very literal definition of PFT. You're paying for some training, and under that very broad definition I guess having to buy a type rating would somewhat qualify. But they're arguing semantics, because if they were actually following the thread at all they'd know that most of everyone here is calling PFT a situation where you're paying for not only some training (if any at all), but for the time and the job itself as well.
There's a HUGE difference between SWA wanting a type rating for their F/O's, and some 300 hour pilot spending 20K to play with the gear and radios of a 1900. By the generally accepted definition being used by almost all of the posters on this board, I doubt that any of the outfits on Dieterly's list would qualify.
Big D: The PFT was started by Comair in the early -90's, lot of airlines followed the concept, mainly by using Flight Safety as a training provider. Maybe Bobbysamd could chime in... Gulfstream and others just took it a step further.
NEDUDE: Do you work for SWA, 'cause some of claims are just pure lies. Like, ""Having a type does not save me, or the company, any of the expense.""
If it doesn't save you or the company any money, why do they require it then?
ANDY: Maybe I was wrong about SkyWest, but I thought they used to do the FlightSafety thing also. I'll correct it right away...
NEDUDE: Do you work for SWA, 'cause some of claims are just pure lies. Like, ""Having a type does not save me, or the company, any of the expense.""
If it doesn't save you or the company any money, why do they require it then?
ANDY: Maybe I was wrong about SkyWest, but I thought they used to do the FlightSafety thing also. I'll correct it right away...
Sppedmode
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Clarify Express I "PFT"
I just want to clarify the PFT requirements at Express I (prior 9-11)
If you had less than 1200 total and 200 multi: You pay the company $10,000 and they keep the money. I only know one guy (intern with 600 hrs) who had less than 1200 and "paid".
If you had between 1200-1500 total and 200-300 multi: You pay $10,000 up front, and are reimbursed over 30 months ($333.33/month).
No pay for over 1500 total and 300 multi.
I had heard that we weren't taking anymore guys with less than 1500 and 300 multi now, but with this new Gulfstream flow-thru/hiring, I hear that some guys have less than the requirements...so???
I'm curious what you guys think about the reimbursement? If you get the money back...is it really PFT??? Just like an opinion from outside the company. Thanks
I just want to clarify the PFT requirements at Express I (prior 9-11)
If you had less than 1200 total and 200 multi: You pay the company $10,000 and they keep the money. I only know one guy (intern with 600 hrs) who had less than 1200 and "paid".
If you had between 1200-1500 total and 200-300 multi: You pay $10,000 up front, and are reimbursed over 30 months ($333.33/month).
No pay for over 1500 total and 300 multi.
I had heard that we weren't taking anymore guys with less than 1500 and 300 multi now, but with this new Gulfstream flow-thru/hiring, I hear that some guys have less than the requirements...so???
I'm curious what you guys think about the reimbursement? If you get the money back...is it really PFT??? Just like an opinion from outside the company. Thanks
bobbysamd
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Comair and FSI P-F-T
I agree with Dieterly's recollection about Comair P-F-T and FSI being a P-F-T provider. I like the term, "provider." Aside from its regular school, I recall that Comair operated a parallel P-F-T program. Air Midwest had some kind of P-F-T program, too, before Mesa purchased it. FSI may well have been the P-F-T provider. Comair was hiring non-P-F-T pilots from the outside during the same time.
I can't really agree 100% that the 737 type for Southwest is really P-F-T. You will always have the type on your ticket and can market it to any company who wants it. I remember years ago that Southwest did not give sim rides as part of its interview process because all of its applicants had the type. Maybe that's changed. It seems to me that knowing you don't have to take a sim ride can ease a great deal of interview stress. On the other hand, some outfit in Phoenix, run by a SWA pilot, I believe, offered 737 types. I understood that this place had all the gouge for the Southwest interview.
I agree with Timebuilder's take on the requirement. I, too, don't think it is true P-F-T, nor do I like the requirement.
I agree with Dieterly's recollection about Comair P-F-T and FSI being a P-F-T provider. I like the term, "provider." Aside from its regular school, I recall that Comair operated a parallel P-F-T program. Air Midwest had some kind of P-F-T program, too, before Mesa purchased it. FSI may well have been the P-F-T provider. Comair was hiring non-P-F-T pilots from the outside during the same time.
I can't really agree 100% that the 737 type for Southwest is really P-F-T. You will always have the type on your ticket and can market it to any company who wants it. I remember years ago that Southwest did not give sim rides as part of its interview process because all of its applicants had the type. Maybe that's changed. It seems to me that knowing you don't have to take a sim ride can ease a great deal of interview stress. On the other hand, some outfit in Phoenix, run by a SWA pilot, I believe, offered 737 types. I understood that this place had all the gouge for the Southwest interview.
I agree with Timebuilder's take on the requirement. I, too, don't think it is true P-F-T, nor do I like the requirement.
PFT
OK I'll bite. Its easier to list the non PFT outfits than the one that did. First what quals as PFT (past, present or future)
1. Paying for sim
2. paying for ground school
3. paying for interview/interview sim
4. not being paid from day one
5. no per diem from day one (when away from base)
6. paying for book/manuals
7. paying for hotel when training is out of base
8. training contracts in any form
9. has an sic PFT program (e.i airnet)
Any company that does the above is a PFT company.
Now from my knowledge the only never PFT companies out there are: (and please correct me if I forget one or misidentify one)
1. Piedmont
2. US Airways (mainline)
3. Allegheny
4. Eagle (although I can't vouch for when they were many seperate companies, e.i. simmions ect.)
5. TSA (? I think - Also I can't believe the FAA just gave you guys a mx award. Your aircraft are the wort I've seen in the industry. Also on the TSA subject, could you guys stop scaring our pax in BGM. I'm getting sick of hearing pax complain)
6. Chalks ?
7. Mountain Air Cargo
8. Wiggins
9. Air Wiss
Please help me if I missed any.
Aother point I'd like to make. Delta and United are PFT. My father PFT with United in '76. He was hired to NY base and paid to stay in Denver for new hire training therefore PFT. Delta also does not pay while in training. Some other major also.
Also IMHO things like ERAU, ND, Dan Web ect. are PFT or just stupid. I mean pay almost 100,000 for a comm sel license when you could get pvt. thru ATP at you local FBO for under 10 grand.
Just some thoughts, I love you all, PFT too.
Happy Flying
OK I'll bite. Its easier to list the non PFT outfits than the one that did. First what quals as PFT (past, present or future)
1. Paying for sim
2. paying for ground school
3. paying for interview/interview sim
4. not being paid from day one
5. no per diem from day one (when away from base)
6. paying for book/manuals
7. paying for hotel when training is out of base
8. training contracts in any form
9. has an sic PFT program (e.i airnet)
Any company that does the above is a PFT company.
Now from my knowledge the only never PFT companies out there are: (and please correct me if I forget one or misidentify one)
1. Piedmont
2. US Airways (mainline)
3. Allegheny
4. Eagle (although I can't vouch for when they were many seperate companies, e.i. simmions ect.)
5. TSA (? I think - Also I can't believe the FAA just gave you guys a mx award. Your aircraft are the wort I've seen in the industry. Also on the TSA subject, could you guys stop scaring our pax in BGM. I'm getting sick of hearing pax complain)
6. Chalks ?
7. Mountain Air Cargo
8. Wiggins
9. Air Wiss
Please help me if I missed any.
Aother point I'd like to make. Delta and United are PFT. My father PFT with United in '76. He was hired to NY base and paid to stay in Denver for new hire training therefore PFT. Delta also does not pay while in training. Some other major also.
Also IMHO things like ERAU, ND, Dan Web ect. are PFT or just stupid. I mean pay almost 100,000 for a comm sel license when you could get pvt. thru ATP at you local FBO for under 10 grand.
Just some thoughts, I love you all, PFT too.
Happy Flying
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Timebuilder
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That's a pretty generous definition of PFT you have created there. I can't say that I agree with it.
Here's a question slightly off topic, maybe Andy or somone else can answer it: Skywest has an application fee ($50, I think...) that gets a mention in the hiring pac I downloaded. Is this what everyone does, or are they an exception? Seems a little steep to cover the cost of spending ten minutes determining if an applicant goes on to the next step. Would flyin at 500 call this PFT?
Here's a question slightly off topic, maybe Andy or somone else can answer it: Skywest has an application fee ($50, I think...) that gets a mention in the hiring pac I downloaded. Is this what everyone does, or are they an exception? Seems a little steep to cover the cost of spending ten minutes determining if an applicant goes on to the next step. Would flyin at 500 call this PFT?
With that (correction) Gross generalization of a definition of PFT, then I PFTed at Great Lakes since I wasn't paid until I passed my checkride (technically I was paid to drive to ground school but that was a special case). They provided hotels...all I needed was to pay for food during ground school. Yep, I must be PFT trash...whatever.
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bobbysamd
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SkyWest App Fees
I paid something like $15-$25 in 1989 or '90. It was free before then. I applied and updated at that airline for six years. I even had a former student who had been hired there walk in an app for me, and I believe I included another check to ensure I hadn't fallen through the cracks. They returned the check and acknowledged I had paid before.
I don't remember all the places for which I ponied up app fees. It's something like the lottery - you pay your money, you takes your chances - not to mention a terrific profit center for these outfits.
I paid something like $15-$25 in 1989 or '90. It was free before then. I applied and updated at that airline for six years. I even had a former student who had been hired there walk in an app for me, and I believe I included another check to ensure I hadn't fallen through the cracks. They returned the check and acknowledged I had paid before.
I don't remember all the places for which I ponied up app fees. It's something like the lottery - you pay your money, you takes your chances - not to mention a terrific profit center for these outfits.
Andy Neill
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EAZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYY BOYZ
I wasn't out to degrade anyone just to put out some thoughts. So Awackoff chill out. If you think you trash then so be it. And yes I paid 50 for the Fedex app so I've PFT or some variation of pay for your job. My best friend paid his way at ACA and for UPAS to get on with Alaska. He has never been happier, I keep telling him to watch out for polar bears up there in ANC.
It is and should be fustrating and demeaning to all of us that companies get away with this (some more than others). Why do I have to give Fedex 50 bucks to apply when the box sorter or ramp guy or A&P applicant does not have too? It sucks doesn't it. Some day our generation (mid to late 20's) will be in charge and we will remember this.
Here is something else to think about. Back when I was a senior in college and applying to guard units for UPT they required you to make your way to the interview hotel and all. At the same time I had civ. interviews for engineering jobs. These companies that wanted to interview me offered travel, food, hotel and some even paid a bonus about 100 for just interviewing with them. And the interviews were normal just review the res ask a few ?'s about you and maybe engineering theory to see if you know something and wham 40 grand a year an office and responsibility of designing a multi million dollar piece of equpiment. No app fees no PFT just treated like a professional and I hadn't even graduated yet.
O another thing about the military/guard. When I applied they wanted engineers in a big way even in the guard. Recruiters would offer to pick me up at college and drive me to the office if I would apply as a engineer in the AF, but for a pilot slot I had to try not to have them hang up the phone.
So my friend, If you have any more questions just ask, don't throw me a "whatever" like your sh!t dosen't stink.
Happy Flying
I wasn't out to degrade anyone just to put out some thoughts. So Awackoff chill out. If you think you trash then so be it. And yes I paid 50 for the Fedex app so I've PFT or some variation of pay for your job. My best friend paid his way at ACA and for UPAS to get on with Alaska. He has never been happier, I keep telling him to watch out for polar bears up there in ANC.
It is and should be fustrating and demeaning to all of us that companies get away with this (some more than others). Why do I have to give Fedex 50 bucks to apply when the box sorter or ramp guy or A&P applicant does not have too? It sucks doesn't it. Some day our generation (mid to late 20's) will be in charge and we will remember this.
Here is something else to think about. Back when I was a senior in college and applying to guard units for UPT they required you to make your way to the interview hotel and all. At the same time I had civ. interviews for engineering jobs. These companies that wanted to interview me offered travel, food, hotel and some even paid a bonus about 100 for just interviewing with them. And the interviews were normal just review the res ask a few ?'s about you and maybe engineering theory to see if you know something and wham 40 grand a year an office and responsibility of designing a multi million dollar piece of equpiment. No app fees no PFT just treated like a professional and I hadn't even graduated yet.
O another thing about the military/guard. When I applied they wanted engineers in a big way even in the guard. Recruiters would offer to pick me up at college and drive me to the office if I would apply as a engineer in the AF, but for a pilot slot I had to try not to have them hang up the phone.
So my friend, If you have any more questions just ask, don't throw me a "whatever" like your sh!t dosen't stink.
Happy Flying
generaltso
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FlyDeltasJets
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Flyin@500agl, when you grow up and start being responsible for bills maybe you will understand. I don' t agree with "PFT" (the reason I never returned Comair's phone calls 5 yrs ago), but I can understand some fees or training contracts to weed out those who flood HR desks with a resume/applications with "minimum" time or less. You young guys have alot to learn about economics. If I were HR, I would no more risk $1000 s on training for some CFI with 1000/200 hr with out a good assurance that he could pass training and would stick around to make the investment worthwhile. All the airline wannabes have "trained" the regional airlines to hire wet behind the ears pilots to fill space, pay them squat, treat them poorly, work them to death, and see them leave for the majors. Now all of pilots that thought they deserved to go to the majors after a year or so with a regional are finding out that it is not that easy and think they might try the regionals as career now that they are flying an RJ. Dont make me feel sorry for you and remind me not have my family fly on your airline that appears to be flown by such whinning under experienced pilots.
choupitula
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Here we go
Wow just like the old board everyone has to sling crap around and put someone down if they JUST PUT OUT SOME THOUGHTS. Please read the post. They were not opinions just taking the discussion further. So if you want it that way I can sling it too.
First Flydeltasjets. In that section I ment more like they don't pay for hotel in ATL when your hired. One of the only reasons I point this out is about a year ago we got this new guy in my guard unit. He came to us from the AF and is on with delta. A bunch of us were having a few beers and talking about the industry jobs ect. and he went off on this commuter pilots PFT and AF or other mil guys don't. Like I said he was new and didn't exactly know all of our backgrounds like myself a commuter pilot. You should have saw his face when he found out that this Lt. (who earlier in the day had put some hurt on him out on the range) was a commuter pilot and one that didn't PFT at that. Hope this clears things up and your having fun down there in hotlanta.
Now as for cvsfly:
First if you agree to pay my bills I'll agree to not grow up. I have an annual on my champ comming up so I'll be waiting for your check, just make it out to cash. Come on dude you can do better than than that. Who do you think you are my dad. (btw if you are that would be cool because according to ual and the air force he's been dead for over 17 years now)
Also in your rant (which, btw is about as bad as mine) back there you said that pay apps keep people from applying when they don't have the mins. I applied to fedex (and know other who did) when I got out of upt and didn't have the mins. I'm almost there and keep updating as I get the turb. pic time and upgrade at my airline.
Please wise old man teach me about economics this should be good. Another thing I'm not a "whinning under experienced pilot" nor are the ones I fly with.
Lastly you sound like the first CP I worked for when I flew charter. He was a lifer (not b/c of his time or age or exp. but b/c of his attitude) and would flip out on sic's that left for commuters. Some left for PFT jobs others went to non PFT like PDT airlines. He just couldn't stand that other people may leave for better things and he wasn't (again b/c of his attitude).
As for you other comments about working conditions and that sort, I've not encountered them here and I'm not drinking the H2O in HQ or anything. It's all about attitude.
And for the record:
My mother paid for half of my Pvt. when I was 16/17. I paid for the rest thru ATP with my own money while going to school for engineering. I never PFT at my 2 charter jobs or as a CFI. And didn't my airline. But yes I am guilty, I PFT (if PFT includes this remember they were just thoughts) by paying fdx fee and traveling to guard interviews.
Finally you should have taken the job with comair, by now you would most likely be making more that a king air charter/corp. job as a RJ capt. and have a sked as a middle of the list senority # with a retirement. Just think about it.
Happy Flying
note: correct spelling not assured
Wow just like the old board everyone has to sling crap around and put someone down if they JUST PUT OUT SOME THOUGHTS. Please read the post. They were not opinions just taking the discussion further. So if you want it that way I can sling it too.
First Flydeltasjets. In that section I ment more like they don't pay for hotel in ATL when your hired. One of the only reasons I point this out is about a year ago we got this new guy in my guard unit. He came to us from the AF and is on with delta. A bunch of us were having a few beers and talking about the industry jobs ect. and he went off on this commuter pilots PFT and AF or other mil guys don't. Like I said he was new and didn't exactly know all of our backgrounds like myself a commuter pilot. You should have saw his face when he found out that this Lt. (who earlier in the day had put some hurt on him out on the range) was a commuter pilot and one that didn't PFT at that. Hope this clears things up and your having fun down there in hotlanta.
Now as for cvsfly:
First if you agree to pay my bills I'll agree to not grow up. I have an annual on my champ comming up so I'll be waiting for your check, just make it out to cash. Come on dude you can do better than than that. Who do you think you are my dad. (btw if you are that would be cool because according to ual and the air force he's been dead for over 17 years now)
Also in your rant (which, btw is about as bad as mine) back there you said that pay apps keep people from applying when they don't have the mins. I applied to fedex (and know other who did) when I got out of upt and didn't have the mins. I'm almost there and keep updating as I get the turb. pic time and upgrade at my airline.
Please wise old man teach me about economics this should be good. Another thing I'm not a "whinning under experienced pilot" nor are the ones I fly with.
Lastly you sound like the first CP I worked for when I flew charter. He was a lifer (not b/c of his time or age or exp. but b/c of his attitude) and would flip out on sic's that left for commuters. Some left for PFT jobs others went to non PFT like PDT airlines. He just couldn't stand that other people may leave for better things and he wasn't (again b/c of his attitude).
As for you other comments about working conditions and that sort, I've not encountered them here and I'm not drinking the H2O in HQ or anything. It's all about attitude.
And for the record:
My mother paid for half of my Pvt. when I was 16/17. I paid for the rest thru ATP with my own money while going to school for engineering. I never PFT at my 2 charter jobs or as a CFI. And didn't my airline. But yes I am guilty, I PFT (if PFT includes this remember they were just thoughts) by paying fdx fee and traveling to guard interviews.
Finally you should have taken the job with comair, by now you would most likely be making more that a king air charter/corp. job as a RJ capt. and have a sked as a middle of the list senority # with a retirement. Just think about it.
Happy Flying
note: correct spelling not assured
Timebuilder
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General-
I don't know if you're a scab or not.
Since the private pilot is not a paid position, or "job", then you were not displacing a pilot who would otherwise be paid.
But you knew that. You just wanted to be a wise guy.
Maybe a better point of understanding is a comparison to a college education. No one expects you to be hired by an engineering firm while in high school, and have them pay for your college degree. You are expected to have the degree when hired, and be ready for whatever extra professional training, seminars, and certifications might be deemed necessary by you company. Engineers expect these costs will be paid by their company, since they have completed their basic education before joining the company. They expect this because they are professionals.
Legit air carriers should expect you to be a commercial pilot, appropriately rated, and ready for whatever special training THEY deem appropriate, and they should pay for THAT.
YOU should not be paying THEM.
I don't know if you're a scab or not.
Since the private pilot is not a paid position, or "job", then you were not displacing a pilot who would otherwise be paid.
But you knew that. You just wanted to be a wise guy.
Maybe a better point of understanding is a comparison to a college education. No one expects you to be hired by an engineering firm while in high school, and have them pay for your college degree. You are expected to have the degree when hired, and be ready for whatever extra professional training, seminars, and certifications might be deemed necessary by you company. Engineers expect these costs will be paid by their company, since they have completed their basic education before joining the company. They expect this because they are professionals.
Legit air carriers should expect you to be a commercial pilot, appropriately rated, and ready for whatever special training THEY deem appropriate, and they should pay for THAT.
YOU should not be paying THEM.
bobbysamd
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Pay for initial training v. P-F-T
I second Timebuilder's comments in every way about comparing flight training to going to college and how legit companies should hire you and train you without paying them.
I enjoy these discussions because they make me think of other lines of work. Let's talk about law (because that's what I'm doing now!) and radio, because that's what Timebuilder and I did before flying. In both occupations, you have to go through a certain amount of training when you start a new job. In a law office, no matter how much experience you have (translate that to quals and hours) you have to learn how files are organized, how deadlines are maintained, which standard forms to use, which software is on the computer, where the copier and postage meters are, etc. You may not be 100% familiar with these items, although you've been doing the work for years. Someone has to show you, so, yes, you still have to be trained. But, you don't pay for it.
In radio, you may have worked in the major markets, e.g., New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston, Philly, etc. But, the equipment, i.e. tape recorders, tape cartridge players, turntables, CD players, etc. will be different from radio station to radio station and every radio station does things different (translate to airplane, checklists, SOPs, etc., differences training). Someone will show you how to operate the broadcast console and transmitter, train you in the station's format, and at least supervise you for a while to ensure you can run the equipment competently while on the air. You are being trained. You are not paying for that training.
I reiterate Timebuilder's comment: It make no difference what occupation you're in, as far as training goes, "YOU should not be paying THEM."
I second Timebuilder's comments in every way about comparing flight training to going to college and how legit companies should hire you and train you without paying them.
I enjoy these discussions because they make me think of other lines of work. Let's talk about law (because that's what I'm doing now!) and radio, because that's what Timebuilder and I did before flying. In both occupations, you have to go through a certain amount of training when you start a new job. In a law office, no matter how much experience you have (translate that to quals and hours) you have to learn how files are organized, how deadlines are maintained, which standard forms to use, which software is on the computer, where the copier and postage meters are, etc. You may not be 100% familiar with these items, although you've been doing the work for years. Someone has to show you, so, yes, you still have to be trained. But, you don't pay for it.
In radio, you may have worked in the major markets, e.g., New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston, Philly, etc. But, the equipment, i.e. tape recorders, tape cartridge players, turntables, CD players, etc. will be different from radio station to radio station and every radio station does things different (translate to airplane, checklists, SOPs, etc., differences training). Someone will show you how to operate the broadcast console and transmitter, train you in the station's format, and at least supervise you for a while to ensure you can run the equipment competently while on the air. You are being trained. You are not paying for that training.
I reiterate Timebuilder's comment: It make no difference what occupation you're in, as far as training goes, "YOU should not be paying THEM."
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publisher
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Hertz
As they say at Hertz, not exactly!
It woulld not be correct to say that the engineer was going to have addtional training paid for by the company... In addition, should he change companies, it may be necessary for him to go back and add additional skills.
A doctor who works for himself as a professional has to pay for and take courses to keep current at his cost/
We should come to some kind of definition as has been pointed out. There is Pay For Training and there is Pay for Job. Two separate and distinct things.
Southwest at least has the courtesy to hire people without a rating and then let them get it.
Consider for a moment the alternative. Southwest just says you have to have the rating to apply.... people would be out spending money to get ratings that Southwest would not take on a bet.
Fedex wants to discourage random application from the unqualified. You are applying to them because I assume you want to work there. They are not chasing you down and asking you to apply..The number of applications became a burden so they slowed it down by a fee.
Trust me,, for corporate operators whether to invest in a rating for someone is a big deal. In a period when pilots are in demand and walking in less than a year, the temptation is to jsut hire someone with the rating.
As they say at Hertz, not exactly!
It woulld not be correct to say that the engineer was going to have addtional training paid for by the company... In addition, should he change companies, it may be necessary for him to go back and add additional skills.
A doctor who works for himself as a professional has to pay for and take courses to keep current at his cost/
We should come to some kind of definition as has been pointed out. There is Pay For Training and there is Pay for Job. Two separate and distinct things.
Southwest at least has the courtesy to hire people without a rating and then let them get it.
Consider for a moment the alternative. Southwest just says you have to have the rating to apply.... people would be out spending money to get ratings that Southwest would not take on a bet.
Fedex wants to discourage random application from the unqualified. You are applying to them because I assume you want to work there. They are not chasing you down and asking you to apply..The number of applications became a burden so they slowed it down by a fee.
Trust me,, for corporate operators whether to invest in a rating for someone is a big deal. In a period when pilots are in demand and walking in less than a year, the temptation is to jsut hire someone with the rating.
Timebuilder
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I don't doubt that you may have some examples to cite, Pub.
However, every engineer friend I know expects the company he works for to pick up training costs. And, pick them up they do.
My Doc buds have the PC (professional corporation, or parent company to their multi-doc practice) pick up the training costs for new procedures, recurring board certs, etc.
None of these guys plunk down $20,000 for 250 hours of operating room time. Well, maybe they would...if Britney needed an adjustment to her surgical enhancements, but outside of that, they don't pay.
However, every engineer friend I know expects the company he works for to pick up training costs. And, pick them up they do.
My Doc buds have the PC (professional corporation, or parent company to their multi-doc practice) pick up the training costs for new procedures, recurring board certs, etc.
None of these guys plunk down $20,000 for 250 hours of operating room time. Well, maybe they would...if Britney needed an adjustment to her surgical enhancements, but outside of that, they don't pay.
kilomike
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In a few years, I will be in the situation of buying an aircraft to support my company's business (a corporation). The aircraft will most likely be a small piston single or light twin, of course but the point is, the company's corporate account will pay for the aircraft AND any flight reviews or other associated training. I will NOT pay for it out of my salary. It's a business, not personal, expense. Job specific flight training should never be considered a personal expense!! IT'S A BUSINESS EXPENSE AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH.
Choupitula:
Is it USAirways mainline or Express that flies into EYW? (Although I think I'm still going to drive--I want to stop by Joe's Stone Crab in Miami for lunch---heard it was terrific--and I hear that the drive over the bridge to the Keys is quite a trip). Just curious in case I get infected with the SCUBA bug and I keep going back there for more diving trips. Looking forward to diving lessons this November!! Of course USAirways is not a scab company--I enjoy travelling on mainline and also like Allegheny and Piedmont.
Choupitula:
Is it USAirways mainline or Express that flies into EYW? (Although I think I'm still going to drive--I want to stop by Joe's Stone Crab in Miami for lunch---heard it was terrific--and I hear that the drive over the bridge to the Keys is quite a trip). Just curious in case I get infected with the SCUBA bug and I keep going back there for more diving trips. Looking forward to diving lessons this November!! Of course USAirways is not a scab company--I enjoy travelling on mainline and also like Allegheny and Piedmont.
Flyin@500agl,
Where do you get your information about TSA? All of our planes are in good condition. Our maintenance guys deserve that award. They do a good job and I have no complaints about our maintenance. In regard to BGM, we only fly the jets in there, one of the wholey owneds operates in there as well. I'm not sure how you know the complaints were from passengers on a TSA flight.
Where do you get your information about TSA? All of our planes are in good condition. Our maintenance guys deserve that award. They do a good job and I have no complaints about our maintenance. In regard to BGM, we only fly the jets in there, one of the wholey owneds operates in there as well. I'm not sure how you know the complaints were from passengers on a TSA flight.
bobbysamd
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Recurrent training outside of aviation
Just to clarify, various professionals besides pilots have to take annual recurrent training. Their rules of conduct or similar codes mandate that they take this training.
Attorneys have to take a seminar every year. It's called Continuing Legal Education, or CLE, for short. It's a business expense, tax-deductable, and paid for by your lawfirm.
Paralegals should take CLE in their speciality(ies). I have, all paid for by my employer at the time.
CPAs have to take continuing ed every year as well. I understand that schoolteachers have to take a few hours every year.
So do doctors, but, again, it's a business expense, tax-deductable, paid by the professional corporation. One example I can think of is that opthamologist bud you have. Chances are, he/she learned PRK at a professional ed seminar, which probably was held at some posh resort, such as Aspen or Vail.
Once again, the codified requirements of the professions mandate these recurrent training requirements. You can't compare it to P-F-T or pay-for-job. You take this training or you're deemed as being out of license. It's a business expense. It's just as simple as that.
Once again, great discussion.
Just to clarify, various professionals besides pilots have to take annual recurrent training. Their rules of conduct or similar codes mandate that they take this training.
Attorneys have to take a seminar every year. It's called Continuing Legal Education, or CLE, for short. It's a business expense, tax-deductable, and paid for by your lawfirm.
Paralegals should take CLE in their speciality(ies). I have, all paid for by my employer at the time.
CPAs have to take continuing ed every year as well. I understand that schoolteachers have to take a few hours every year.
So do doctors, but, again, it's a business expense, tax-deductable, paid by the professional corporation. One example I can think of is that opthamologist bud you have. Chances are, he/she learned PRK at a professional ed seminar, which probably was held at some posh resort, such as Aspen or Vail.
Once again, the codified requirements of the professions mandate these recurrent training requirements. You can't compare it to P-F-T or pay-for-job. You take this training or you're deemed as being out of license. It's a business expense. It's just as simple as that.
Once again, great discussion.
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