Anyone else get a phone call from United today?

[IAHERJ]

AirTran's starting pay, along with JetBlue's, is where it is for a reason. Those contracts(pay rates in the case of JetBlue) were put into place in the late 90's when neither carrier could attract pilots as easily as the majors(whose first year rates were all in the 29-35K range). I'm glad the LCC's have higher first year rates and think the legacies should fix the problems with first year compensation(we definately need to at my company). I just don't need to constantly hear from LCC guys how their first year pay is so great etc. as the reason for it is not so complimentary.

IAHERJ

 

[Lear70]

AirTran's starting pay, along with JetBlue's, is where it is for a reason. Those contracts(pay rates in the case of JetBlue) were put into place in the late 90's when neither carrier could attract pilots as easily as the majors(whose first year rates were all in the 29-35K range). I'm glad the LCC's have higher first year rates and think the legacies should fix the problems with first year compensation(we definately need to at my company). I just don't need to constantly hear from LCC guys how their first year pay is so great etc. as the reason for it is not so complimentary.

IAHERJ

My case in point.

Low supply = higher pay.

Stop taking the jobs, they'll have to do something.

Sorry you find it insulting... I remember the time when you were a humble regional F/O. You weren't at the majors in the early 90's as I recall, and neither was I. You haven't forgotten your roots so quickly over there, have you?

The question isn't about changing the past, the question is how do we change the future if people won't help themselves by not taking those jobs?

 

[IAHERJ]

No , I wasn't. I was at AirTran for 3 years and was there before you were I believe. Nothing against AirTran but I left to start over again at crappy first year pay in order to be where I wanted to be a few years down the road. That time has come and I enjoy where I fly and in what type of equipment I fly in. I enjoy the crews a lot more than I did there(I am speaking of FA's mostly as the pilots at AAI were great for the most part). I haven't forgotten where I was at the regionals. I don't lecture people for taking jobs at the legacies for 29K a year because I did it too; and after working for one of those high paying LCC's.

IAHERJ

 

[Puck Mugger]

Ummmmm.....thread creep

 

[IAHERJ]

Yep, thread creep indeed. Sorry. I think we need to fix the 1st year pay problem at the majors. AA and CAL are negotiations this year and next. Let's hope this gets done so this issue gets put to rest. I can assure you that I will not support nor vote yes on any contract that doesn't significantly improve the conpensation package for 1st year pilots at my airline. That being said, I can't blame guys for taking jobs at CAL, UAL, DAL right now as all 3 are hiring and will probably have this issue resolved in a few years(Delta is already ahead of the rest on 1st year issues). Some people look farther than year 1-3 in terms of pay and want to work for an airline that has a reach around the world and a diverse fleet. I will not berate anyone for applying and taking a job at one as I'd be the pot calling the kettle black. Now Skybus, virgin America etc. are different. With SWA, JBLE, and AAI hiring and basically doing the same type of flying; there is no excuse for someone willing to work for one of those carriers. Do I sound like a hyprocrit here? Hope not.

IAHERJ

 

[PHXFLYR]

OK, first off, no, I didn't have the same opportunity. Got all the way to medical for Marine Corps aviation program out of college and got medically disqualified - no one bothered to tell me 2 pins in an ankle from a snow-skiing accident as a teenager was a problem, even though I was running 3-5 miles a day. So no, we don't all have the same opportunities.

Second, I don't begrudge our military aviators anything... as long as they don't make life harder on everyone else through their post-military choices.

3rd, your last statement above is self-defeating. Of COURSE there will always be jobs that pay less... UNTIL the bar is raised. That's the whole POINT. That experienced and qualified aviators are taking jobs that start with such insultingly-low pay.

How do you RAISE the bar, if people keep doing it? The answer is, you don't. It stays put, and we keep spiraling down the crapper, just as you pointed out, UNTIL THERE AREN'T PILOTS TO TAKE THOSE JOBS.

Unfortunately, just as the supply is drying up at the regional level which MIGHT eventually put some upward pressure on things, we have Open Skies which will kill U.S. airline growth in terms of pilots jobs at about the same rate the supply of pilots is shrinking.

Incidentally, sorry for the earlier rant. This whole pilot contract stuff over here at AAI combined with that liberal USA today full-page article re. deregulation has gotten me pretty P.O.'d in general at where this profession has gone.

Didn't mean to insult anyone, just irritated that guys who could just as easily get an interview with a decent-paying Legacy or Cargo airline will take these kinds of salaries.

p.s. AirTran's 1st year pay is solidly middle of the pack at $45 an hour, not $28 or $32. Not that $45 is worth raving about, but it's not poverty level wage, either. Get your facts straight.

$45 per hr isn't poverty level??? For flying a gussied up DC-9 ? And you have the balls to jump all over that Lear 135 pilot for taking that job at UA??? Buddy, YGTBSM !!! Neither hourly rate is any thing to write home about. Nor do I think you have the right to complain about the bar not being raised when you call $45/hr "solidly middle of the pack" Talk about someone who needs to "get your facts straight".And beside Fed Ex or UPS,who today would you consider a "decent paying legacy or cargo carrier?" Seems to me that today that term is nothing more than an oxymoron,no?



PHXFLYR

 

[pkober]

That explains the bitterness towards mil guys.

 

[inthewind]

And that's why things will never change.

Lemme guess, you're carrying your mil pension and health insurance, right? So flying 80 hours at $32 bucks an hour is $30,000 1st year pay (not a chance in HELL I'd fly an airbus or boeing for that), but with a minimum $40k - 60k plus in military pension, you'll still make more than most 3-4 year civilian 121 guys, so no big deal, right?

But it's better than flying a Lear around Part 135,,,

Thanks for continuing to drag the bar through the mud. I'd have thought someone with your education and experience would know better...

/rant

Look here Learclown! I get a partial pension after I was retired on a disability. My ex gets all that and more every month, I got furloughed from Independence and refused to go to work at another crappy regional. I am not excited about United but it is better than where I'm at. And yes I interviewed at Airtran and for some unknown reason even with seven strong internal recs I got denied, am I bitter about it, NO! Do I berate you for it, NO! But I would like to move somewhere that doesn't have a poverty level salary cap, and has the potential to pay off in a few years.

 

[Lear70]

$45 per hr isn't poverty level???

No, it's not, but I also said it wasn't anything to celebrate. At an 80 hour a month average, it's $43,200 a year - definitely out of the median poverty level.

Neither hourly rate is any thing to write home about.

I think I already said that, but thanks for missing it, anyway.

I might also mention that I wouldn't exactly call AWA's $39.00 an hour "stellar" either,,,

Nor do I think you have the right to complain about the bar not being raised when you call $45/hr "solidly middle of the pack" Talk about someone who needs to "get your facts straight".

OK, evidently you don't know very much about current industry STARTING wages. Here's a tip: the average is $40 an hour. Go look it up. If you add FedEx, UPS, and ABX into the mix, that AVERAGE goes to $44 an hour.

So yeah, I'd say we're "solidly middle of the pack" for a STARTING wage, and the FACTS support that claim.

And beside Fed Ex or UPS,who today would you consider a "decent paying legacy or cargo carrier?" Seems to me that today that term is nothing more than an oxymoron,no?

I was speaking in terms of 1st year pay and, overall, yes, that term is an oxymoron these days but, again, you're missing the point.

The POINT was that the starting wage isn't that much better than Skybus, yet people wet themselves for the opportunity to *maybe* someday fly a widebody in the left seat.

Assuming UAL even survives the next few years...

 

[SkiFishFly]

Think before you type...

I would venture to say that military retirees are less than 5-6 percent of the available pilot force.
The fact that they would choose to work or not work for a particular carrier would have essentially zero influence on that carriers supply of new hires.

 

[inthewind]

I would venture to say that military retirees are less than 5-6 percent of the available pilot force.
The fact that they would choose to work or not work for a particular carrier would have essentially zero influence on that carriers supply of new hires.

Thank You SkiFishFly! Those of us that served may have not had to pay for our training with cash but we paid for it with blood, sweat and tears. It cost me my wife and kids but that is the past and is over. I'm starting over and unfortunaely until UPS opens the doors again Big U is the best opportunity for now.

As far as LearClown's reference to shiny widebodies, YGTBSM! I fly a stinking lear35! I could care less about the equipment. But I will say that the reason I turned down shooty-taco's job offer was that I refused to fly a 70 seat jet for less than I made to fly a 32-seat jet at ACA

 

[Lear70]

I would venture to say that military retirees are less than 5-6 percent of the available pilot force.
The fact that they would choose to work or not work for a particular carrier would have essentially zero influence on that carriers supply of new hires.

Historically, actually, they make up between 30-40% of "Major" airline hiring but, in the last 7 years or so, many military guys have opted to stay in since the Majors weren't hiring and the Regionals truly WERE poverty level wages with crappy work rules for the most part so we didn't see those guys entering the work force.

Did you see the last couple interview lists in ops? 70 - 80% USAF. Strange, but true, given our 121 PIC requirement. I think they're waiving it for military A/C Commander time, which they should have done long ago anyway, along with Part 135 PIC time, but I digress...

Really I'm just in a crappy mood and this didn't help. I really need to get off this thing and go watch a movie or something. Long overnight in FNT - lots to do here.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Really I'm just in a crappy mood and this didn't help. I really need to get off this thing and go watch a movie or something. Long overnight in FNT - lots to do here.

There is always that brew house over across the street. They have a couple of good selections (and I'm not a big beer fan).
I'm sure they have scotch as well...

 

[Axel]

...Some people look farther than year 1-3 in terms of pay and want to work for an airline that has a reach around...

IAHERJ

If you want to work for a carrier that has a reach around, you have to go with a Legacy carrier. The regionals and charter gigs won't even give you that.

Sorry, couldn't pass that up

 

[PHXFLYR]

No, it's not, but I also said it wasn't anything to celebrate. At an 80 hour a month average, it's $43,200 a year - definitely out of the median poverty level.

I think I already said that, but thanks for missing it, anyway.

I might also mention that I wouldn't exactly call AWA's $39.00 an hour "stellar" either,,,

OK, evidently you don't know very much about current industry STARTING wages. Here's a tip: the average is $40 an hour. Go look it up. If you add FedEx, UPS, and ABX into the mix, that AVERAGE goes to $44 an hour.

So yeah, I'd say we're "solidly middle of the pack" for a STARTING wage, and the FACTS support that claim.

I was speaking in terms of 1st year pay and, overall, yes, that term is an oxymoron these days but, again, you're missing the point.

The POINT was that the starting wage isn't that much better than Skybus, yet people wet themselves for the opportunity to *maybe* someday fly a widebody in the left seat.

Assuming UAL even survives the next few years...

Boy, do we have a chip on our shoulder. (Must be the son of a USAir pilot) I'd worry less about UA over the next few years and more about your little outfit because somehow I think you "Trannies" are gonna get crushed like a bug now that Delta is firing on all 8 cylinders.And you're right. $39/hr starting pay at our house isn't exactly "stellar". But then again, you never saw me post anywhere saying that it was, or try to justify it because that was what the other airlines were paying first year pilots,now did you?


PHXFLYR