Anyone else get a phone call from United today?

[PHXFLYR]

OK, first off, no, I didn't have the same opportunity. Got all the way to medical for Marine Corps aviation program out of college and got medically disqualified - no one bothered to tell me 2 pins in an ankle from a snow-skiing accident as a teenager was a problem, even though I was running 3-5 miles a day. So no, we don't all have the same opportunities.

Second, I don't begrudge our military aviators anything... as long as they don't make life harder on everyone else through their post-military choices.

3rd, your last statement above is self-defeating. Of COURSE there will always be jobs that pay less... UNTIL the bar is raised. That's the whole POINT. That experienced and qualified aviators are taking jobs that start with such insultingly-low pay.

How do you RAISE the bar, if people keep doing it? The answer is, you don't. It stays put, and we keep spiraling down the crapper, just as you pointed out, UNTIL THERE AREN'T PILOTS TO TAKE THOSE JOBS.

Unfortunately, just as the supply is drying up at the regional level which MIGHT eventually put some upward pressure on things, we have Open Skies which will kill U.S. airline growth in terms of pilots jobs at about the same rate the supply of pilots is shrinking.

Incidentally, sorry for the earlier rant. This whole pilot contract stuff over here at AAI combined with that liberal USA today full-page article re. deregulation has gotten me pretty P.O.'d in general at where this profession has gone.

Didn't mean to insult anyone, just irritated that guys who could just as easily get an interview with a decent-paying Legacy or Cargo airline will take these kinds of salaries.

p.s. AirTran's 1st year pay is solidly middle of the pack at $45 an hour, not $28 or $32. Not that $45 is worth raving about, but it's not poverty level wage, either. Get your facts straight.

$45 per hr isn't poverty level??? For flying a gussied up DC-9 ? And you have the balls to jump all over that Lear 135 pilot for taking that job at UA??? Buddy, YGTBSM !!! Neither hourly rate is any thing to write home about. Nor do I think you have the right to complain about the bar not being raised when you call $45/hr "solidly middle of the pack" Talk about someone who needs to "get your facts straight".And beside Fed Ex or UPS,who today would you consider a "decent paying legacy or cargo carrier?" Seems to me that today that term is nothing more than an oxymoron,no?



PHXFLYR

 

[pkober]

That explains the bitterness towards mil guys.

 

[inthewind]

And that's why things will never change.

Lemme guess, you're carrying your mil pension and health insurance, right? So flying 80 hours at $32 bucks an hour is $30,000 1st year pay (not a chance in HELL I'd fly an airbus or boeing for that), but with a minimum $40k - 60k plus in military pension, you'll still make more than most 3-4 year civilian 121 guys, so no big deal, right?

But it's better than flying a Lear around Part 135,,,

Thanks for continuing to drag the bar through the mud. I'd have thought someone with your education and experience would know better...

/rant

Look here Learclown! I get a partial pension after I was retired on a disability. My ex gets all that and more every month, I got furloughed from Independence and refused to go to work at another crappy regional. I am not excited about United but it is better than where I'm at. And yes I interviewed at Airtran and for some unknown reason even with seven strong internal recs I got denied, am I bitter about it, NO! Do I berate you for it, NO! But I would like to move somewhere that doesn't have a poverty level salary cap, and has the potential to pay off in a few years.

 

[Lear70]

$45 per hr isn't poverty level???

No, it's not, but I also said it wasn't anything to celebrate. At an 80 hour a month average, it's $43,200 a year - definitely out of the median poverty level.

Neither hourly rate is any thing to write home about.

I think I already said that, but thanks for missing it, anyway.

I might also mention that I wouldn't exactly call AWA's $39.00 an hour "stellar" either,,,

Nor do I think you have the right to complain about the bar not being raised when you call $45/hr "solidly middle of the pack" Talk about someone who needs to "get your facts straight".

OK, evidently you don't know very much about current industry STARTING wages. Here's a tip: the average is $40 an hour. Go look it up. If you add FedEx, UPS, and ABX into the mix, that AVERAGE goes to $44 an hour.

So yeah, I'd say we're "solidly middle of the pack" for a STARTING wage, and the FACTS support that claim.

And beside Fed Ex or UPS,who today would you consider a "decent paying legacy or cargo carrier?" Seems to me that today that term is nothing more than an oxymoron,no?

I was speaking in terms of 1st year pay and, overall, yes, that term is an oxymoron these days but, again, you're missing the point.

The POINT was that the starting wage isn't that much better than Skybus, yet people wet themselves for the opportunity to *maybe* someday fly a widebody in the left seat.

Assuming UAL even survives the next few years...

 

[SkiFishFly]

Think before you type...

I would venture to say that military retirees are less than 5-6 percent of the available pilot force.
The fact that they would choose to work or not work for a particular carrier would have essentially zero influence on that carriers supply of new hires.

 

[inthewind]

I would venture to say that military retirees are less than 5-6 percent of the available pilot force.
The fact that they would choose to work or not work for a particular carrier would have essentially zero influence on that carriers supply of new hires.

Thank You SkiFishFly! Those of us that served may have not had to pay for our training with cash but we paid for it with blood, sweat and tears. It cost me my wife and kids but that is the past and is over. I'm starting over and unfortunaely until UPS opens the doors again Big U is the best opportunity for now.

As far as LearClown's reference to shiny widebodies, YGTBSM! I fly a stinking lear35! I could care less about the equipment. But I will say that the reason I turned down shooty-taco's job offer was that I refused to fly a 70 seat jet for less than I made to fly a 32-seat jet at ACA

 

[Lear70]

I would venture to say that military retirees are less than 5-6 percent of the available pilot force.
The fact that they would choose to work or not work for a particular carrier would have essentially zero influence on that carriers supply of new hires.

Historically, actually, they make up between 30-40% of "Major" airline hiring but, in the last 7 years or so, many military guys have opted to stay in since the Majors weren't hiring and the Regionals truly WERE poverty level wages with crappy work rules for the most part so we didn't see those guys entering the work force.

Did you see the last couple interview lists in ops? 70 - 80% USAF. Strange, but true, given our 121 PIC requirement. I think they're waiving it for military A/C Commander time, which they should have done long ago anyway, along with Part 135 PIC time, but I digress...

Really I'm just in a crappy mood and this didn't help. I really need to get off this thing and go watch a movie or something. Long overnight in FNT - lots to do here.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Really I'm just in a crappy mood and this didn't help. I really need to get off this thing and go watch a movie or something. Long overnight in FNT - lots to do here.

There is always that brew house over across the street. They have a couple of good selections (and I'm not a big beer fan).
I'm sure they have scotch as well...

 

[Axel]

...Some people look farther than year 1-3 in terms of pay and want to work for an airline that has a reach around...

IAHERJ

If you want to work for a carrier that has a reach around, you have to go with a Legacy carrier. The regionals and charter gigs won't even give you that.

Sorry, couldn't pass that up

 

[PHXFLYR]

No, it's not, but I also said it wasn't anything to celebrate. At an 80 hour a month average, it's $43,200 a year - definitely out of the median poverty level.

I think I already said that, but thanks for missing it, anyway.

I might also mention that I wouldn't exactly call AWA's $39.00 an hour "stellar" either,,,

OK, evidently you don't know very much about current industry STARTING wages. Here's a tip: the average is $40 an hour. Go look it up. If you add FedEx, UPS, and ABX into the mix, that AVERAGE goes to $44 an hour.

So yeah, I'd say we're "solidly middle of the pack" for a STARTING wage, and the FACTS support that claim.

I was speaking in terms of 1st year pay and, overall, yes, that term is an oxymoron these days but, again, you're missing the point.

The POINT was that the starting wage isn't that much better than Skybus, yet people wet themselves for the opportunity to *maybe* someday fly a widebody in the left seat.

Assuming UAL even survives the next few years...

Boy, do we have a chip on our shoulder. (Must be the son of a USAir pilot) I'd worry less about UA over the next few years and more about your little outfit because somehow I think you "Trannies" are gonna get crushed like a bug now that Delta is firing on all 8 cylinders.And you're right. $39/hr starting pay at our house isn't exactly "stellar". But then again, you never saw me post anywhere saying that it was, or try to justify it because that was what the other airlines were paying first year pilots,now did you?


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Historically, actually, they make up between 30-40% of "Major" airline hiring but, in the last 7 years or so, many military guys have opted to stay in since the Majors weren't hiring and the Regionals truly WERE poverty level wages with crappy work rules for the most part so we didn't see those guys entering the work force.

Did you see the last couple interview lists in ops? 70 - 80% USAF. Strange, but true, given our 121 PIC requirement. I think they're waiving it for military A/C Commander time, which they should have done long ago anyway, along with Part 135 PIC time, but I digress...

Really I'm just in a crappy mood and this didn't help. I really need to get off this thing and go watch a movie or something. Long overnight in FNT - lots to do here.

Yeah....we kinda noticed. Go have a beer and lighten up Francis!! Life's too short.Cheers:beer:


PHXFLYR

 

[pilotyip]

USA Jet DA-20 F/O $51.87/hr and DC-9 F/O $57.87/hr first day of GS. BTW Lear we do not know if inthe wind is retired or not.

 

[UAL-GSO]

Boy, do we have a chip on our shoulder. (Must be the son of a USAir pilot) I'd worry less about UA over the next few years and more about your little outfit because somehow I think you "Trannies" are gonna get crushed like a bug now that Delta is firing on all 8 cylinders.And you're right. $39/hr starting pay at our house isn't exactly "stellar". But then again, you never saw me post anywhere saying that it was, or try to justify it because that was what the other airlines were paying first year pilots,now did you?


PHXFLYR

A chip on his shoulder indeed! Funny to hear a Tranny chastise others for lowering the bar. Nothing personal, but what exactly has Airtran done over the years to "raise the bar" in this industry? Maybe someday all you guys who secretly wish for the demise of UAL and every other legacy will get your wish. Until then, YES - people will accept crappy first year wages for the chance to Captain a 777 or 747 someday. Damn, now I'm starting to get cranky...

 

[cocknbull]

Inthewind congrats on the interview my friend. Please do not let the idiots like Lear 70 bring you down. First year pay arguments or not, UAL is still a great institution. It has done a lot for the US and the worlds economy since its beginning. It is a fine company with a proud heritage. The cycle has turned in our favor and future contracts WILL reflect that. Military pension or not you will still be able to swing the boat and the kids college education in a few years time.

Good luck

Eye contact and Smile

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, I had to go unwind for a while,,, sorry, guys, I just get ticked off sometimes. InTheWind, my apologies for attacking you directly for an underlying problem this entire industry has.

PHX, no chip, just aggravated that so few people are willing to do what it takes to regain the ground this profession has lost...

Management wins, labor loses, and that INCLUDES ALL OF US.

 

[aa73]

Management wins, labor loses, and that INCLUDES ALL OF US.

Now THAT is 100% dead on balls accurate, my friend.

ESS - OH - ESS! is the only way we can get their attention. 73

 

[inthewind]

Yeah, I had to go unwind for a while,,, sorry, guys, I just get ticked off sometimes. InTheWind, my apologies for attacking you directly for an underlying problem this entire industry has.

PHX, no chip, just aggravated that so few people are willing to do what it takes to regain the ground this profession has lost...

Management wins, labor loses, and that INCLUDES ALL OF US.

Lear70 thank you for the apology, accepted. I know that the wages at United are unacceptable, however this slide began when a bunch of hoes at Mesa gave in to Johnny 'O' the rest of us paid the price. What we truly need is a union with the sack to come up with a national payscale for all like-sized jets and the pilots with the cajones to walk when the time comes. Believe me, I'll be the first to walk my post on the picket line.

 

[igneousy2]

I don't think it's fair to blame the new guys for the problems of the industry. Just answer me this -

Who is responsible for all the B scales that are and that ever were?

Who allowed all the regional flying because they were too good to fly turbo-props?

Okay...I can't wait for you to answer. It's the senior (as in guys on property at contract time) guys that didn't give a damn about what the new guys would be making - just don't touch my rate of pay. The same guys that allowed the creation of the regionals because they were too proud to fly those turbo-props.

Oh well - Everybody keeps blaming management - don't misunderstand me - they have done some very bad things - but I would say that pilots have been screwed by other pilots more than any of the worst managements at any point in the history of the airlines.

First year pay has ALWAYS been crappy - even when the pay rates weren't forced down the pilots throats through bankruptcy. So - why is the first year pay rates crap at all airlines - Why has just about every legacy gone through/currently have a B-scale- because the pilots already on the property were not willing to expend any negotiating capital to get the rates up.

Later

 

[instructordude]

No, it's not, but I also said it wasn't anything to celebrate. At an 80 hour a month average, it's $43,200 a year - definitely out of the median poverty level.

I think I already said that, but thanks for missing it, anyway.

I might also mention that I wouldn't exactly call AWA's $39.00 an hour "stellar" either,,,

OK, evidently you don't know very much about current industry STARTING wages. Here's a tip: the average is $40 an hour. Go look it up. If you add FedEx, UPS, and ABX into the mix, that AVERAGE goes to $44 an hour.

So yeah, I'd say we're "solidly middle of the pack" for a STARTING wage, and the FACTS support that claim.

I was speaking in terms of 1st year pay and, overall, yes, that term is an oxymoron these days but, again, you're missing the point.

The POINT was that the starting wage isn't that much better than Skybus, yet people wet themselves for the opportunity to *maybe* someday fly a widebody in the left seat.

Assuming UAL even survives the next few years...

Whatever Kolski.

 

[Huggyu2]

Apologies?? Handshakes?? Gentlemanly behaviour??? I'm liking the new FI.com!!!
Seriously,... well done, folks. It's good to see a heated thread where everyone can keep it civil.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program...