Another aircraft order from CAL

[ATRCA]

I got news for you. Every pilot hired at every airline (with a very few exceptions) has been told 3-5 year upgrade. Actually happens about 5-10% of the time. In fact, I'm on my 4th airline and was told as little as one year but never more than five. If you think that is a legitimate expectation you're very new to this.

Oh yeah, you may upgrade in 3-5. Then downgrade. Then upgrade. Then sit reserve for six years. Then, voila! After more like 10 years you REALLY upgraded.

PIPE

AAhh.....it has nothing to do with "told." Guys are online in the left seat at CAL who have been with the company less than 3 yrs. That is FACT! I don't care if you are on airline number 25. Means nothing. A$$es in seats is what matters and right now there is 2.5 yr a$$ in the left seat at CAL. At UAL? ........not so much. You got 8K hrs, you have not been at this any longer than I.

 

[General Lee]

Looks like I AGAIN ignited a firestorm. Hey, I was just commenting on what COULD happen if DL/NWA goes through, followed by CAL/UAL. IF that happened, we all know UAL would need some new planes, and a newly merged company that already has ORDERS could help facilitate that.

Oh yeah, and to make Lowecur happy, UAL would have to give up 1 terminal and 500 slots at ORD to his beloved Jetblue and the E190s...

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pipe]

AAhh.....it has nothing to do with "told." Guys are online in the left seat at CAL who have been with the company less than 3 yrs. That is FACT! I don't care if you are on airline number 25. Means nothing. A$$es in seats is what matters and right now there is 2.5 yr a$$ in the left seat at CAL. At UAL? ........not so much. You got 8K hrs, you have not been at this any longer than I.

That was a typo. I thought K stood for million. I have 8 million hours.

Look, I can't argue with that - if they're in the seat, they're in the seat. Trying to argue hypothetical career expectations is absolutely ridiculous though. Take a CAL guy with 25 years. Had you evaluated his/her career expectations 25 years ago, you'd have stapled him below the janitors in a merger with just about anyone. They far exceeded their earlier career expectations years ago.

You just can't merge lists on that basis because you CANNOT define career expectations. No one can.

PIPE

 

[cabby]

And in the nineties Continetal was bankrupt too. Career expectation are as cyclical as the airline business itself. Im sure with the 20 w/b you guys own you have a better chance for that seat compared to the 80 w/b at United. Oh and aircraft orders are just that orders. they don't mean anything until there on property.

 

[ATRCA]

That was a typo. I thought K stood for million. I have 8 million hours.

Look, I can't argue with that - if they're in the seat, they're in the seat. Trying to argue hypothetical career expectations is absolutely ridiculous though. Take a CAL guy with 25 years. Had you evaluated his/her career expectations 25 years ago, you'd have stapled him below the janitors in a merger with just about anyone. They far exceeded their earlier career expectations years ago.

You just can't merge lists on that basis because you CANNOT define career expectations. No one can.

PIPE

Fair enough. Like I said, I support relative seniority integration. Just seems like most talk about career expectations as a starting point and at this point CAL is clearly better than UAL in that regard.

BTW, No McCain in 08!

 

[Cpt Oveur]

CAL has been widebody limited for too long. The bean counters are already looking at lost revenue for IAH DXB routes and others. This just shows how their 787 deliveries are just guesses now. When they signed for aircraft 19 and 20 back in '05, they were confident they would be the last 777 orders. Now that the 787 timelines are not reliable, they're not going to wait until the 53rd 787 airframe (first one in line for CAL) to come online. Well done, Continental.

 

[ATRCA]

And in the nineties Continetal was bankrupt too. Career expectation are as cyclical as the airline business itself. Im sure with the 20 w/b you guys own you have a better chance for that seat compared to the 80 w/b at United. Oh and aircraft orders are just that orders. they don't mean anything until there on property.

Where an airline was 20 yrs ago or even 10 yrs ago means nothing. Less than 10 yrs ago UAL was the $hit, had the best contract and was the place everyone wanted to be. It is not that now. Nothing about who they used to be can change where they find themselves now. CAL does not "need" a merger. Most analysts have stated that CAL is the strongest domestic airline and would do best alone. Flip side, Tilton has been talking about merger as a survival strategy for quite a while now.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Where an airline was 20 yrs ago or even 10 yrs ago means nothing. Less than 10 yrs ago UAL was the $hit, had the best contract and was the place everyone wanted to be. It is not that now. Nothing about who they used to be can change where they find themselves now. CAL does not "need" a merger. Most analysts have stated that CAL is the strongest domestic airline and would do best alone. Flip side, Tilton has been talking about merger as a survival strategy for quite a while now.

In the current landscape they are the strongest company. However, if NWA/DAL combine, CAL cannot compete against a company with strong Transatlantic, Pacific, and South American presence. SVP of Ops Mark Moran and Smiseck have said to many pilot groups that if a merger occurs, CAL will do whatever it needs to do to remain competitive, including merge with another carrier. Merging with UAL has been a rumor for years. Seeing United execs, attorneys, ex-execs in the Houston HQ doesn't do anything to stop the rumors either.

 

[ATRCA]

In the current landscape they are the strongest company. However, if NWA/DAL combine, CAL cannot compete against a company with strong Transatlantic, Pacific, and South American presence. SVP of Ops Mark Moran and Smiseck have said to many pilot groups that if a merger occurs, CAL will do whatever it needs to do to remain competitive, including merge with another carrier. Merging with UAL has been a rumor for years. Seeing United execs, attorneys, ex-execs in the Houston HQ doesn't do anything to stop the rumors either.

I agree completely. I have a healthy respect for United in particular the UAL ALPA and the unity of their pilot group. I'm not trying to throw those guys under the bus. Right now CAL is a stronger airline and CAL pilots appear to have more to lose.

 

[4got2flare]

Amazing the General is always thumping his chest about Big D orders. Hrmm... new to you China MD-90's and 10 737-700's. New to you 757's that have etops (copying CAL again) and a couple 777's. Man your on a role... How do you play that into your NW bid?