An open letter to USAPA Members

[PuffDriver]

From TWA dude:

Who cares?

Well, mostly the people who stand to bank from this stuff, lawyers. That being said, the less spent on litigation, the less dues which need to be taken from paychecks, or if the company is footing the tab, the more in the coffers for profit sharing.

From TWA dude:

Furloughs go by strict reverse-seniority order thus fences are no protection. Fences have a place but nothing is more important than the seniority number.

...and now you know why this is an issue that united a group of ununitable pilots. I might also suggest that we are talking about a merger here. Most of them came with no furlough clauses. Your point stands that seniority, in a seniority based system, is crucial. Your premise is flawed about fences protecting against out of seniority furlough. It is happening now as we speak through the use of unintended fences.

From TWA dude:

If I understand you correctly, you think the "flaw" is that career expectations vary too much so should be ignored. I don't see that as a flaw. By necessity, there's a snapshot date and conditions are evaluated based on that point in time. Picking one date is very objective indeed. The past is irrelevant, the future is irrelevant, but today we can see who stands to gain more through the merger. Nicolau was very clear in explaining that.

I couldn't disagree more. 1 day does not a career make. My point was that the USA/AWA merger is unique in that we CAN go back and see what the future held in relation to the award--albeit slightly jaded. The business plan going forward is all East. LAS: closed. Furloughs: West side. Hiring: East side. With appropriate fences, yet one seniority list, furloughs might--likely would have--been mitigated altogether. Of course, there's always tomorrows merger, which may entail furloughs, so your point about seniority being forever in a seniority based system rings true. Yet, at the same time, you unwittingly justify that which you condemn--the East actions. Yes, even going back on the word "binding". Mergers have come and gone, with binding arbitration in the seniority list disputes. Yet this one is unique in that one group has left ALPA, and held the process up-legally. Why? Of course, your answer is that they are scabs, backstabbers, selfish. I throw out that perhaps the award was so egregious as to trigger this response. I've seen merged pilot groups so angry with each other that fights break out, yet they merge as life moves on. Are they just so much more reasonable? Are the East pilots just so much more unreasonable? I think those are fair questions.


From TWA dude:

You can't look at what's happened since the merger and make any conclusions about career expectations. When there's a merger two airlines become one NEW airline and everything from that point forward is completely different. Perhaps you're unaware that in the summer of 2007 three-quarters of the sections were complete in joint contract negotiations. The airline was profitable and Parker was motivated to complete a CBA and get his synergies. Our Nego Committee was predicting a TA by autumn. The East pulled out of talks in a snit and have been loving LOA 93 ever since. (I assume the love it because they certainly haven't been trying to get a new contract since.)

I agree, but I feel that this is as close as you can come. The value in the East contract can be clearly seen via hiring on the East--even through BK. The value of the West contract can also be seen--even without BK. They haven't changed, except that the West has gotten profit sharing. A negotiating committee predicting the outcome of a TA--unknown. Which sections of the contract were left to decide? Let me guess. Ifs and buts. While you choose to believe them, I choose not to. Two subjective opinions. I could be wrong, so could you.

From TWA Dude:

Still, you're not making any convincing argument for DOH being more fair than having neutrals decide.

First, I am not trying to convince you of anything. It is merely my opinion. Second, in all likelihood, neutrals will have to be involved for fence process. That is where the inequities of DOH would have to be tempered appropriately.

We could throw out various scenarios. I would say that I though an overreaching part of the NWA/DAL award was called the pull and plug. NWA had the bulk of retirements sooner than DAL retirements kicked back in. So a certain number of the most senior NWA pilots were pulled out of the NWA list, a combined list was created, and then those NWA pilots were plugged back in at their original seniority level. In effect, NWA got credit for retirements, even though those pilots were still on the property. I think the number was 287. This was an attempt to balance out the perceived inequity. Of course, down the road, the tide will turn and those same NWA pilots will benefit from Delta retirements, but who is counting.

Moreover, the fence included only the 747 and the 777. Thirty some airplanes fenced, with the bulk of the retirements coming in the 747 category allowed no real movement on the part of the DAL pilots--since NWA pilots have the first right of refusal. Even more interesting are displacements. With the 747 classics and the bulk of the DC-9s retiring, NWA pilots could scatter much more around the system with the fence being only on the 747 and 777. Rather than being forced onto their pre merger equipment, they were allowed to displace onto former DAL equipment as well, stalemating the growth that the South was enjoying, and even downgrading former DAL pilots.

..and I guarantee that some NWA pilot can chime in here with an equal tale of woe. DOH seniority with solid fences around both sides equipment for 5 years would have been very interesting, IMO. Water under the bridge for now, but interesting to learn from, IMO. Of course such fences would be different for each individual merger, and neutrals would obviously be needed.

The difference is that two guys don't have to sit in a cockpit and argue over who is senior despite different dates of hire--which is the controlling factor for everything else at an airline--except seniority list integrations.

 

[PuffDriver]

East pilots will never regain what they've lost the last five years. Parker is paying them with monies they've given up for ego.

Like I said, money seems to be important to you. I know guys who place priority on being captain. I know others who want only a good schedule. Still others want money.

To each their own. You cannot define what they have lost, because you don't know if they have indeed lost anything. You can't quantify their scheduling system, which I dearly envy in many respects. You have no idea what money they have foregone, if any.

I get it. You want money. They don't, at least not to this point. They have had ample time to change leadership, have they not?

 

[Ocity]

wrong section.

 

[Superbird]

From TWA dude:

Well, mostly the people who stand to bank from this stuff, lawyers. That being said, the less spent on litigation, the less dues which need to be taken from paychecks, or if the company is footing the tab, the more in the coffers for profit sharing.

From TWA dude:

...and now you know why this is an issue that united a group of ununitable pilots. I might also suggest that we are talking about a merger here. Most of them came with no furlough clauses. Your point stands that seniority, in a seniority based system, is crucial. Your premise is flawed about fences protecting against out of seniority furlough. It is happening now as we speak through the use of unintended fences.

From TWA dude:

If I understand you correctly, you think the "flaw" is that career expectations vary too much so should be ignored. I don't see that as a flaw. By necessity, there's a snapshot date and conditions are evaluated based on that point in time. Picking one date is very objective indeed. The past is irrelevant, the future is irrelevant, but today we can see who stands to gain more through the merger. Nicolau was very clear in explaining that.

I couldn't disagree more. 1 day does not a career make. My point was that the USA/AWA merger is unique in that we CAN go back and see what the future held in relation to the award--albeit slightly jaded. The business plan going forward is all East. LAS: closed. Furloughs: West side. Hiring: East side. With appropriate fences, yet one seniority list, furloughs might--likely would have--been mitigated altogether. Of course, there's always tomorrows merger, which may entail furloughs, so your point about seniority being forever in a seniority based system rings true. Yet, at the same time, you unwittingly justify that which you condemn--the East actions. Yes, even going back on the word "binding". Mergers have come and gone, with binding arbitration in the seniority list disputes. Yet this one is unique in that one group has left ALPA, and held the process up-legally. Why? Of course, your answer is that they are scabs, backstabbers, selfish. I throw out that perhaps the award was so egregious as to trigger this response. I've seen merged pilot groups so angry with each other that fights break out, yet they merge as life moves on. Are they just so much more reasonable? Are the East pilots just so much more unreasonable? I think those are fair questions.


From TWA dude:

I agree, but I feel that this is as close as you can come. The value in the East contract can be clearly seen via hiring on the East--even through BK. The value of the West contract can also be seen--even without BK. They haven't changed, except that the West has gotten profit sharing. A negotiating committee predicting the outcome of a TA--unknown. Which sections of the contract were left to decide? Let me guess. Ifs and buts. While you choose to believe them, I choose not to. Two subjective opinions. I could be wrong, so could you.

From TWA Dude:

First, I am not trying to convince you of anything. It is merely my opinion. Second, in all likelihood, neutrals will have to be involved for fence process. That is where the inequities of DOH would have to be tempered appropriately.

We could throw out various scenarios. I would say that I though an overreaching part of the NWA/DAL award was called the pull and plug. NWA had the bulk of retirements sooner than DAL retirements kicked back in. So a certain number of the most senior NWA pilots were pulled out of the NWA list, a combined list was created, and then those NWA pilots were plugged back in at their original seniority level. In effect, NWA got credit for retirements, even though those pilots were still on the property. I think the number was 287. This was an attempt to balance out the perceived inequity. Of course, down the road, the tide will turn and those same NWA pilots will benefit from Delta retirements, but who is counting.

Moreover, the fence included only the 747 and the 777. Thirty some airplanes fenced, with the bulk of the retirements coming in the 747 category allowed no real movement on the part of the DAL pilots--since NWA pilots have the first right of refusal. Even more interesting are displacements. With the 747 classics and the bulk of the DC-9s retiring, NWA pilots could scatter much more around the system with the fence being only on the 747 and 777. YRather than being forced onto their pre merger equipment, they were allowed to displace onto former DAL equipment as well, stalemating the growth that the South was enjoying, and even downgrading former DAL pilots.

..and I guarantee that some NWA pilot can chime in here with an equal tale of woe. DOH seniority with solid fences around both sides equipment for 5 years would have been very interesting, IMO. Water under the bridge for now, but interesting to learn from, IMO. Of course such fences would be different for each individual merger, and neutrals would obviously be needed.

The difference is that two guys don't have to sit in a cockpit and argue over who is senior despite different dates of hire--which is the controlling factor for everything else at an airline--except seniority list integrations.

PIT and BOS closed as well. Would you believe the possibility of Bular favoring his beloved East pilots to get the lions share of growth and opportunity? Or is he really looking out for both sides?

 

[Superbird]

Integrity matters Marine or have you forgotten?

How many Captains do you fly with that are younger than you now?

How much LOS did you have when you were furloughed?

As each case "turns on its own merits" so do career expectations at airlines. Remind me what you expectations were when you were mowing lawns and changing locks.

Charlie 2,

Still waiting for your opus.

 

[PuffDriver]

PIT and BOS closed as well. Would you believe the possibility of Bular favoring his beloved East pilots to get the lions share of growth and opportunity? Or is he really looking out for both sides?

I thought the AWA guy stayed in charge. Isn't he the same driving this American merger.

How many furloughs resulted from BOS and PIT closing?

How many West trips come East and fly out of the East system, and vice versa?

We all see what we want to see.

 

[Superbird]

I thought the AWA guy stayed in charge. Isn't he the same driving this American merger.

How many furloughs resulted from BOS and PIT closing?

How many West trips come East and fly out of the East system, and vice versa?

We all see what we want to see.

Parker is the money man and CEO. He doesn't make the day to day Flight Ops decisions. Unless he's required to step in and keep usapa in want.

Cactus 1520 cleared direct Rome.

 

[PuffDriver]

Parker is the money man and CEO. He doesn't make the day to day Flight Ops decisions. Unless he's required to step in and keep usapa in want.

Cactus 1520 cleared direct Rome.

Got it. So business decisions are made with USAPA in mind

And my other questions?

 

[imacdog]

Amazing how proud the East pilots are of not honoring an agreement they signed up for. Morality and ethics aren't their strong suits for sure.

 

[charlie2]

Charlie 2,

Still waiting for your opus.

Is Opus 125 ok?