AMR also believes that the west pilots case is ripe!

[TWA Dude]

I don't think the Nic list would be anywhere near a 3 way,

Do you understand what is meant by "3-way"? It means the West pilots would have our own representation before the arbitration panel. If that happens we'll hand over the Nicolau List and start from there. The more important thing you'd have to decide is whether three arbitrators who've worked alongside and indeed been mentored by George Nicolau will choose to ignore his work. Do you feel lucky?

Again are you guys telling AOL to stand firm on the NIC???

We don't need to.
And BTW, we're not in control of the AOL lawyers. Of course, if we disagreed with them we would just withhold funding. You can always hope for that.

Or have you come to something you'd be willing to accept, like Silver told you to?

Might wanna re-read that transcript. Scratch that, just believe what ever the USAPA update tells you.

 

[Crzipilot]

So now you say the AOL lawyers are doing all of this on their own accord. No direction or input from the west pilots? They have taken up this case Pro Bono and coming up with their own ideas as to the direction to take the West pilots? Interesting.

I may be paraphrasing here, but I believe in your own update, it states the Judge strongly encourages the parties to sit down and come up with something other than what their positions have been?!? Or did the lawyers write that without any consideration of what the west pilots think?


So all mighty one. Tell me how a 3 way works. APA comes to table with their list. USAPA comes to table with their list (probably the East seniority list) and AOL comes to the table with the NIC. Everyone looks at it and says, Uhmmm...why is the AOL list about 3k pilots fat? Oh well you see this is the list that was supposed to be in effect if the east and west ever voted on a JCBA. It never got memorilized in section 22 so we've never used this list. But this is the list we want to start with. Oh ok, well how 'bout giving us the west seniority list and we'll start from there.......

I guess it couldn't work out that way huh? I guess you figure by showing up with the NIC award, you can effectively shoulder out what USAPA puts on the table? Do you feel lucky?

So your telling me that Nicolau is the grand poohbah of arbitrators and everyone looks at him and his decisions as being altruistic and never problematic? His word is written in stone, and other arbitrators will be struck down if they even so much as question any of his decisions (wasn't he fired from baseball arbitration for some reason?) I don't know as I don't run in those circles...

 

[Crzipilot]

Might wanna re-read that transcript. Scratch that, just believe what ever the USAPA update tells you.

Only update I saw was that docs had been posted.....so just pulling this out of the air.......about the same as you...

Since you guys have no control over your lawyers and all.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

So what compromise is acceptable to you, hbe you talked to your aol guys to tell them to hold firm on the NIC or nothing?!?

Explain how USAPA gets around the threat of the east pilots petitioning for an injunction if DOH is not used. Any compromise has to begin with DOH being struck from the USAPA constitution (probably easier than it sounds). That takes the first bullet out of the chamber.

The TA specifies that once a Single Agreement has been negotiated that the pilots will be integrated in accordance with the negotiated seniority list. Now if USAPA didn't like that, they could have tried to modify the TA, but they didn't. If the MOU is that Single Agreement (which the judge appears to be warming up to) and that MOU specifies that the TA goes away at the POR, then the case is ripe now for injunctive relief.

I think the motivation for fighting the west should be ebbing away since the integration with APA could make the NIC look like a bargain. If USAPA accepts the Nic and submits it to M-B for integration into the combined New American list, those who have smashed-and-grabbed their positions thus far will retain them under no bump no flush and Addington I and II are defused. No one will likely operate under the Nic list for more than a very short time (as opposed to USAPA's 7 year land grab) since the New American list will eclipse it. Those USAPA sows are going to lose their trough as soon as APA takes over, so their acquiescence to the Nic jeopardizes only their reputation among other east pilots, and let's be honest, how much is that really worth?

 

[TWA Dude]

So now you say the AOL lawyers are doing all of this on their own accord. No direction or input from the west pilots?

Sorry this is news to you but a little research can save you more embarrassment. Please visit http://www.cactuspilot.com/ to see who AOL is. I'll even be especially helpful and tip you off to the tab on the left which reads "About Us".

I may be paraphrasing here, but I believe in your own update, it states the Judge strongly encourages the parties to sit down and come up with something other than what their positions have been?!?

This was a hearing, not a trial. The only order issued was to submit more briefs. The content of those briefs won't be a surprise to anybody.

I guess it couldn't work out that way huh? I guess you figure by showing up with the NIC award, you can effectively shoulder out what USAPA puts on the table? Do you feel lucky?

Yes, but it won't be luck. It's what's right.

His word is written in stone, and other arbitrators will be struck down if they even so much as question any of his decisions (wasn't he fired from baseball arbitration for some reason?) I don't know as I don't run in those circles...

If you like you can research how often an RLA arbitrator redoes another arbitrator's work. Surely you wouldn't presume it happens all the time? In any case, as stated before, you'd be better off WITH the Nic in a three way. My guess if the arbitration panel tossed the Nic it would be for something less onerous to the West.

Only update I saw was that docs had been posted.....so just pulling this out of the air.......about the same as you...

Don't worry, USAPA the spin machine will air their victory update soon enough.
My favorite bit of USAPA spin is the idea the the West voting 98% for the MOU indicates a willingness to abandon the Nic. Got news for you: 98% voted for the MOU because the AOL lawyers recommended we do so. I'll leave it to you to figure out why.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Perhaps the judge needs to understand the the Nic is not the extreme position of the west and DOH is the extreme of the east. The Nic is the middle, it is the compromise between east and west, and DOH is the extreme from which compromise needs to be made.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The voting results of the MOU reflect the weakened position that USAPA's behavior put the pilot group in, not a referendum on the quality of the deal. USAPA made this group irrelevant.The MOU simply gave an irrelevant group a few bucks and a pat on the head.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ok, as to AOL. and who they are. 19 people. But do they not continue to certified class status, so as to enjoin all of you in their little trip through the legal system? that in itself would lead me to believe that you have agreed to allow them to speak for you. Don't know if there is a way, but isn't there an option for individuals to essentially say "don't include me in that class" If so, have you done so.....or does AOL speak for you?

Not saying that anyone is going to redo the arbitrators work. Just saying, as Silver is warming up to, that he NIC is a non-event, and going the way of the dinosaur.

As the hearing, uhmmmm.....ya hearing, and she sent out an order.......which she specifically said in the transcripts, her previous order back from the prev. hearing she told both parties to sit down and negotiate. In the transcript she talks of not wanting to have to reissue her order, under the pretense of the lawyers ignoring her orders.

Multiple times she told marty, the nic was moot. so what's the next step fellas? How 'bout the nic applying inside PHX, the rest, whatever APA and USAPA comes up with........that sounds fair.

 

[Crzipilot]

BUTB....

I wish I was on whatever your on........I can't really see how you interpret the transcripts how you have. I guess the Judge is still going to give you the NIC award.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

Not saying that anyone is going to redo the arbitrators work. Just saying, as Silver is warming up to, that he NIC is a non-event, and going the way of the dinosaur.

As the hearing, uhmmmm.....ya hearing, and she sent out an order.......which she specifically said in the transcripts, her previous order back from the prev. hearing she told both parties to sit down and negotiate. In the transcript she talks of not wanting to have to reissue her order, under the pretense of the lawyers ignoring her orders.

Multiple times she told marty, the nic was moot. so what's the next step fellas? How 'bout the nic applying inside PHX, the rest, whatever APA and USAPA comes up with........that sounds fair.

CRZI- Why not have some 3rd party read the transcripts to you. She said what the 9th said, that while the Nic is not a mandatory negotiating position, it must at least be considered and if rejected it must have a LUP to justify it's rejection (not simply "we don't think it's fair").

HOWEVER, the rejection of the Nic as a negotiating position does not absolve them of the responsibility for the final agreement to conform to the same advantage to the west as the Nicolau list. IOW, negotiate whatever you like, but the results better be Nic or better for the west or the DFR becomes unquestionably ripe.

 

[TWA Dude]

Ok, as to AOL. and who they are. 19 people. But do they not continue to certified class status, so as to enjoin all of you in their little trip through the legal system?

One may always file to be excluded from a class. In fact, the class is required to inform you of that option. To my knowledge zero have opted out.

Given the record of the leaders Easties have elected I can understand your confusion here. The fact is, we trust the path AOL is taking and the funding (and 98% vote as recommended) proves this. I personally know most of the AOL group members and I've never felt the need to tell them anything.

so what's the next step fellas?

See you in court.

 

[Crzipilot]

So there you go. You have representation. Now do as the good judge said and find seething other than the NIC that's acceptable. She already told Marty she doesn't want to hear that all he said is NIC or nothing.

Butb
Your putting words in the judges mouth. Nowhere did she say whatever the list is must as advantageous to the west as the NIC is. Please tell me what page and line she says that in the transcript. Maybe have your lawyer read it to you and describe how it's going to be the NIC. If it is so. Why did she not lay down the injunction. Why is she forcing the meeting?

The award was supposed to not be a windfall. Yet here you are describing the NIC as advantageous to the west.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

Butb
Your putting words in the judges mouth. Nowhere did she say whatever the list is must as advantageous to the west as the NIC is. Please tell me what page and line she says that in the transcript. Maybe have your lawyer read it to you and describe how it's going to be the NIC. If it is so. Why did she not lay down the injunction. Why is she forcing the meeting?

The award was supposed to not be a windfall. Yet here you are describing the NIC as advantageous to the west.....

She said the 9th is always right (I wonder what the Supreme Court would think of that) and that is precisely what the 9th said. They clearly delineated the freedom to negotiate from the responsibility of the result to not disadvantage the west.

You obviously aren't intellectually equipped to discuss this. Put your head down on your desk and we'll wake you when it's over.

 

[TWA Dude]

Now do as the good judge said and find seething other than the NIC that's acceptable. She already told Marty she doesn't want to hear that all he said is NIC or nothing.

Once again, you're not understanding the proceedings. Tuesday was only a hearing and the only order was for more briefs. She has not ordered us to negotiate and if she does the result will be nil. We already negotiated once before and the Nic was the result. The likely outcomes are either granting an injunction or dismissing the case. If it's the latter the struggle against your malevolence is far from over.

 

[Crzipilot]

Don't have time to pull the transcript. But she took both lawyers to task for not sitting down and coming up with a compromise. I believe this might be why it's rumored ferguson and koontz were at hq with Marty. Seigal and Usapa.

Now if your going back to the ninth and quoting them. Then you should also agree that the case is not ripe. And Usapa is free to negotiate. Not until a final sli. Is completed and the big picture taken into full account. (What extra pay. Security retirement etc). Will they be able to factually determine if the west was harmed by Usapa actions.

I know it's hard for butb to stop taking snipets of orders and using that small piece to sound favorable to his arguement. But you really should read the whole thing. Some people call it denial. And never come out of it