AMR also believes that the west pilots case is ripe!

[Bringupthebird]

I am waiting for the first APA meeting where the CLT and PHL reps try to pull their stunts at the adults table. Perhaps their constituents will remember Bonehead Pilot Regiment's lackluster performance and hire professional representatives.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Sure, you guys have been quite accurate on all your predictions over the years. "You won't even get 200 cards......."

Kasher will pay!
Full Pay to the Last Day
Pension Investigation

Do I need to go on??

 

[Crzipilot]

When you two live birds can bid Clt Phl or dca. Then you got room to. Talk. Until that time you are essentially on te outside looking in, wondering why the lottery commisoner won't let you inside to cash your ticket.

This is your hurrah. The beat down to the east as you fine fellows out it. That we would be crying after the 14th. Instead it looks like a big block off of your foundation has fallen into the ocean. And the little Spartans are sliding with it.

Up to every decision and court date the west cheerleaders come out in force. Explaining how the east is wrong an the judge will show that. Then magically. The court doesn't act as the west predicts, They fall silent. Regroup. And come out with, We'll now this next one will be it.

Give it a rest and admit none of us knows how the hell this will turn out
No matter what your opinion is. Because most I those on the west has been wrong, time and time again

 

[ableone]

CM's take on events;

I have read the transcript and there is a lot to chew on. There are a number of key points.

1. There were no objections to permitting the new American Airlines to intervening.

2. A status report by the parties must be submitted to the court regarding settlement discussions that have basically not occured. This is interesting. With the exception of Marty Harper offering to have an arbitration on whether or not the Nicolau Award has to be used in the upcoming M-B SLI there have been none. This clearly does not bode well for USAPA and Judge Silver appears miffed that this did not occur. It will be very, very interesting to see what the parties present in less than one week to the court by close of business on Tuesday, May 21st.

3. How can USAPA provide a settlement report when their C&BLs require DOH? USAPA has a mandate to seek DOH, which Judge Silver appears to believe is DFR. How will USAPA address this issue?

4. Judge Silver seems to respect Bob Siegel and she seemed to get that the DFR claim is now "ripe" after listening to US Airways' counsel. Siegel's description of the APA Green Book and MOU being a JCBA, except for basically implementation issues such as PBS, appeared to resonate with Judge Silver. And, Pat Szymanski attempted to say the Green Book & MOU was not a contract and the DFR claim was not "ripe", but she would not hear to much from him.

5. Russ Blackwell wrote a compelling review and I believe he's hit the head on the nail. Silver wants this case settled and she's looking for resolution. In my opinion, if USAPA does not come off of their DOH demand and provide a settlement option, that Addington/West Pilot Class can agree to, Silver will issue a DFR order against USAPA.

6. USAPA's PHX-based pilots could have their opportunity to seek a remedy for USAPA reneging on a final and binding agreement because Silver wants the Addington Group to provide a "briefing on what the remedy could or should be if she found a violation of the duty of fair representation."

7. Judge Silver wants to see resolution, which is why she ordered the parties to provide opening briefs on whether the Court has the authority to order that the West Pilots will be a party at the McCaskill-Bond process after listening to Bob Siegel. If Judge Silver orders a 3-way M-B SLI arbitration with 3 different Merger Representative Parties (APA, East Pilots, & West Pilots), USAPA will lose control of the East-West process. And, per Bob Siegel's CAB description there would be no APA or USAPA input, there would 3 Merger Representative Committee's, the West pilots will control their own M-B SLI input, DOH will likely not be an issue, the East pilots will lose their 517 positions at the top of the Nicolau Award list for widebody credit, and the West Pilot Merger Representatives could actually see an even better SLI than the Nicolau Award. What's interesting is that the West Pilot Merger Representatives could re-introduce the Nicolau Award or another suggested East-West list -- it would be their option.

It is clear why Pat Szymanski is vehemently opposed to the West pilots representing them self, but it appears that if the logistics can be worked out and a 3-way M-B SLI proceeds USAPA's PHX-based pilots will control their own M-B SLI arbitration without USAPA's heavy hand and the East pilots, especially those hired between 1984-1988, could be worse off with the M-B Award than if the Nicolau Award had been implemented.

Regards,

CM

 

[Carl S.]

Crzipilot, slow week on E190 F/O reserve in PHL? Lots of posts from a crewroom JD who is spraying info all over the boards that the NIC. is dead but DOH is alive and well in USAPA dreamland!!! The transcripts are just the start to a new round of litigation, nothing has been ordered or ruled on, even the initial injunction...USAPA's motion to dismiss is still in play along with the company's request for release so lets see where this goes Mister F.Lee Bailey Jr.

P.S.- who is on this USAPA ad hoc committee to negotiate seniority next week and who picked the members? DOH is all they can do per the USAPA CBL's...nice

 

[Guppiedriver]

Back a few pages, I asked, what's agreeable to the west? all I've seen is NIC or nothing..

Crzi,

Considering that USAPA's C&BL's demand that they integrate via DOH principles / methodology...what will be agreeable to the east?

Now that you understand that Judge Silver has not written an order for compromise...did you also realize that she did not order a compromise between USAPA and AOL the last time we appeared in her court, even though she said she did in the quoted transcripts below?:

THE COURT: Okay.
So, in other words, they, then, didn't comply, as far
as you're concerned, with my order either, which was that USAPA did not have to adopt only the Nicolau Award but had to be fair.
So they stymied you. They were the wall as far as
you're concerned and your client is concerned?
MR. SZYMANSKI: And they are still there, Your Honor.
They have not changed their position

She was very confused. I was stunned when Szymanski played along with her as if she did order us to compromise.

 

[Bringupthebird]

So what will Szymanskys response be when the judge asks, "Well, did you even hold a vote on a contract which included the Nicolau award? You have the ability to do that and prove objectively that your pilots will reject a contract that may have substantial improvements, but contains the Nicolau award. And yet you didn't do it? How can I ask the west pilots to negotiate away from an award that has not been actually formally rejected? Are you afraid the pilots would accept the Nicolau award as a means to higher pay? The MOU was, by itself neutral on seniority, but you must have known that as a single agreement, it had the potential to trigger the implementation of the Nicolau award, and yet you accepted it almost unanimously.

Judgement for the plaintiffs. The TA stands. I can see nothing that justifies setting aside the Nicolau award and it's implementation. Failure to do so will constitute a failure to represent the west pilot group and subject USAPA to substantial penalties."

That sounds more reasonable than, "Don't cry, baby, Mama's here!"

 

[pave driver]

The NIC nor DOH will be used.

 

[becket]

The NIC nor DOH will be used.

Disagree

 

[sean67]

The NIC nor DOH will be used.

Agree

 

[Bringupthebird]

USAPA is constitutionally bound to DOH. The west pilots just need to get Nic or better, call it what you want. Therefore, I'd say DOH won't be used and USAPA loses the whole enchilada. Or the C&R's are the Nic word for word.

Either way I have about 5000+ red letter days as each of those turds turns 65 and turns in their IDs. Can't happen quick enough!

I just might start a thread with the numbers retiring on each particular day. Share my happiness which is proportional to my disappointment in them as fellow pilots.

 

[Dornier 335]

I just might start a thread with the numbers retiring on each particular day. Share my happiness which is proportional to my disappointment in them as fellow pilots.

Like you started a thread accusing two pilots of allowing a fake pilot ride their jumpseat based on a newspaper article without knowing all the facts?

We have seen you previous class acts Grumpy, might be time for you to get a blue get-up happy pill before your anger makes you kiss your first class good-bye.

 

[FR8mastr]

USAPA is constitutionally bound to DOH. The west pilots just need to get Nic or better, .

Nic or better? 5 years after Nic (if implemented) all West pilots could hold Cpt. positions, but even that is not good enough.

That is some moral high ground you think you hold.

Please for heavens sake tell the APA how you feel.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Nic or better?

Hey, take it up with the 9th. They're the ones that offered USAPA latitude to negotiate off the Nic just as long as the outcome didn't result in a DFR (which means Nic or better).

 

[Bringupthebird]

Nic or better? 5 years after Nic (if implemented) all West pilots could hold Cpt. positions, but even that is not good enough.

That is some moral high ground you think you hold.

Please for heavens sake tell the APA how you feel.

Is that coming from a strong union member who is perfectly fine with his fellow pilots being held out on furlough solely due to his unions actions? You can spare me your "outrage" skippy.

 

[Turtle21]

Nic or better? 5 years after Nic (if implemented) all West pilots could hold Cpt. positions, but even that is not good enough.

That is some moral high ground you think you hold.

Please for heavens sake tell the APA how you feel.

Plus 1

APA should be paid 10% less than them and 24% of their routes should be flown by desert pilots.

 

[Bringupthebird]

your anger makes you kiss your first class good-bye.

Angry? Heck no, I am happy every day one of you turds slides out the door, and even more so when the judicial system finally puts an end to your tyranny (with a few bucks out of your pay check to compensate us).

What's to be angry about? I didn't back the folks who kept me on LOA 93 so that a few could benefit at the expense of other. I have no union buyers remorse. The tow truck is hooking up the rusted hulk of DOH and you still have more payments to make!

Enjoy Wye River III, 3rd times the charm. Except this time you won't be able to avoid negotiating against yourself.

Angry. Now that's funny.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Plus 1

APA should be paid 10% less than them and 24% of their routes should be flown by desert pilots.

No, APA will show you how an integration was supposed to be done. I am almost positive you won't like it.

You might want to make sure Seham gets to see a copy.

Do you think he'd explain the USAPA scheme more convincingly that Slime-ansky?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Like you started a thread accusing two pilots of allowing a fake pilot ride their jumpseat based on a newspaper article without knowing all the facts?

You mean this one?

On March 20, 2013, Jeannard checked in at US Airways ticket counter with his paid ticket for a Florida bound flight. He requested from the ticket agent an upgrade but was told there were no other available seats. Jeannard became upset. The ticket agent noticed that he was wearing an Air France pilot?s shirt with captain's bars.
A US Airways supervisor asked Jeannard if he was an airline pilot with Air France. Jeannard replied that he was. Jeannard presented an Air France ID card. The supervisor asked Jeannard if he wanted to speak to the pilots of the Florida bound flight.
Jeannard was allowed walk down the Florida bound aircraft?s jetway were he boarded the aircraft. He spoke with the pilot and copilot while they were performing their preflight duties. Jeannard told the pilots he was a Boeing 747 pilot with Air France. The pilots allowed Jeannard to be seated in the cockpits jump seat.
Passengers began to board the aircraft. A gate agent noticed Jeannard sitting in the jump seat behind the pilot and told Jeannard if he was going to remain on the flight and fly the jump seat he would be required to go back to the ticket counter and fill out the necessary forms

Yeah, I don't know all the facts. I am still waiting on one - Why weren't the two pilots fired on the spot for allowing a passenger to sit in the jumpseat with every intention of staying there for the entire flight?

You guys get all tingly about the hiring going on in the east. Well, there's 2 more vacancies!

 

[pave driver]

.....

 

[TWA Dude]

Nic or better?

Restitution for the damage we've suffered since the East withdrew from joint contract negotiations in 2007: furloughs, stagnation, loss of pay. Frankly, the Nic list just isn't good enough anymore. I'm kind of hoping for a 3-way.

 

[weasel_lips]

You mean this one?



Yeah, I don't know all the facts. I am still waiting on one - Why weren't the two pilots fired on the spot for allowing a passenger to sit in the jumpseat with every intention of staying there for the entire flight?

You guys get all tingly about the hiring going on in the east. Well, there's 2 more vacancies!

There are a lot of fine folks on the west side, you are the exception to that rule.

 

[reepicheep]

I am a west pilot but after 7 years of supposedly having the law on our side & being in the right the overconfidence and high-fiving by some on the west is breathtaking. Have we learned nothing? It's a crapshoot.

 

[FR8mastr]

Restitution for the damage we've suffered since the East withdrew from joint contract negotiations in 2007: furloughs, stagnation, loss of pay. Frankly, the Nic list just isn't good enough anymore. I'm kind of hoping for a 3-way.

I'm sorry how silly of me, I forgot that once hired at America West you were guaranteed constant growth and upgrades for the duration of your career.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Unions generally try to eliminate whipsawing, rather than rely on it. Once USAPA decided that it could grab the flag and pick winners and losers in the SLI, they set themselves up for a DFR.

Check,( no make that cash) please!

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm sorry how silly of me ...

Typical Eastie response; always avoiding responsibility. The East reneged on a commitment. That shows a lack of integrity and nothing you can say about AWA changes that.

 

[Turtle21]

Typical Eastie response; always avoiding responsibility. The East reneged on a commitment. That shows a lack of integrity and nothing you can say about AWA changes that.

Always whining about the minority knowing what is right.

Whatever, lets see if tomorrow Judge Silver continues to tell Marty and his clients that USAPA does not have to use the Nic.

 

[Flybywire44]

Aren't settlement negotiations ongoing at this time between East/West to establish a new DOH/SLI hybrid?

"I have had many inquiries about what is going on behind the scenes with USAPA concerning Addington II. At this time, I can only say the BPR has signed non-disclosure agreements and as far as I know, everyone has honored that agreement. So I know little about what is happening in the background and no one has given me special information.

What I can tell you without giving any confidentiality as this is only my take, is that the BPR and the officers feel confident that they are doing everything they can to act in good faith and in accordance with Judge Silver's order. They continue to maintain confidence in our legal team.

The judge seems to be looking for a way out and so she should. But she can not force a settlement on us without throwing out extensive Federal Law concerning the RLA, and NLRB. I have no doubt that these negotiations will go the same way the 4 other attempts by us to negotiate with the west after Nicolau issued his award. The west will not negotiate until we agree to implement the Nicolau Award. Since, as the 9th Circuit stated in it's opinion, the Nicolau will never be voted for by a majority of USAPA members, it is not a viable solution.

She would also have to throw out the Ninth Circuit's ruling that USAPA is not required to use the Nicolau list and is free to use a list of their own making. We may have to defend that list at some point in the future, but DOH with C & R is a time proven method of seniority integration and not something we have much to worry about.

She would have to re-write the McCaskill-Bond Amendment by allowing 3 entities when there are only 2 unions. Will she pick the west representatives? I doubt it.

She would also have to over rule her own previous ruling.

Time is running out for the west. This is the west's "Hail Mary Pass" that will go no where. Judges hate to have their rulings overturned and she most certainly would have her ruling overturned if she attempted to force a settlement on us.

At this point, from what I am hearing, USAPA legal has things well in hand.

Just my opinion,
BG"

 

[becket]

Whatever, lets see if tomorrow Judge Silver continues to tell Marty and his clients that USAPA does not have to use the Nic.

You mean like this:

?Let's read all of the order which I thought I was very clear to make the -- all counsel and the parties in front of me; but I basically said that you could, in fact, go forward and make a decision without the Nicolau Award but I didn't say that you unequivocally could reject it. I said that it was dangerous for you to do that because it was considered fair.

So you had to consider it. Now that's what I said and there's no way you could read that order any other way.?

Here?s an exchange between Judge Silver and USAPA legal counsel Pat Szymanski (emphasis added in bold):

?MR. SZYMANSKI: And, Your Honor, I'm not saying that the Nicolau Award is not fair although there were significant problems with it, and I'm not saying that a date-of-hire proposal is not fair. We've given the Court cases and citations to a number of Court decisions that say that a date-of-hire proposal is within the union's duty of fair representation and is fair. But there are a number of other possible proposals and we were prepared to discuss those with representatives of the West Pilots and they said no. They did not want to talk about that.?

And then later in the discussion:
MR. SZYMANSKI: We haven't had any discussions because they don't want to discuss anything other than the Nicolau Award and I don't want the Court to misunderstand the fact that doing the Nicolau Award itself as it is, as it stands, is a realistic possibility. It isn't. It just ? it isn't. But we are willing to say --

THE COURT: Why isn't it?

MR. SZYMANSKI: Because we think it was unfair.

THE COURT: Well, why isn't it -- but it was unfair. Why is it not fair now in the future, as you're working this out? As I said quite clearly in my order, you're not bound by it but it may well be that it is the fair way to go. I mean --I made that clear that it's quite dangerous for you to reject it.

Here is another excerpt from Judge Silver?s Order:
"At oral argument in the previous case, Mr. Szymanski stated ?we?re prepared to talk and we want to talk and we want genuine engagement from the West Pilots about the seniority proposal and we are prepared to make changes.? (CV-10-1570-PHX-ROS, Doc. 187 at 31). Does this statement conflict with Mr. Szymanski?s more recent statements indicating ?USAPA will do whatever it takes to see that there is no Nicolau? and that USAPA will vigorously fight to prevent the West Pilots from being heard during the McCaskill-Bond process? (Doc. 14-3 at 50-51). Is this approach in violation of this Court?s prior Order stating ?[a]n impartial arbitrator?s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result? and ?[d]iscarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground???

Yep. No problems in USAPIA!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Always whining about the minority knowing what is right.

Minority? Anyone who has sacrificed person gain to preserve their honor not only knows what's right, but has done it.