American Master Re-Bid

[eaglefly]

717 - In order to "think outside the box" one needs to identify the boundaries of the box they exist in.

Here is that section of Letter 3, AS WRITTEN IN VERBATIM :

Section IV. (A.) A pilot furloughed from AA may displace a CJ captain at an AMR Eagle, Inc. carrier provided that the number of CJ Captain positions available to furloughed AA pilots will be limited to the total number of CJ Captain positions at AMR Eagle, Inc. less the number of Eagle Rights CJ Captains.

You've added a non-existant personal interpretation ("move in to") and than quoted the last half of the paragraph. As you can see there is a SPECIFIC and single term used to allow an AA furloughee to flow-back to an Eagle CJ Captain position from AA and that is by DISPLACEMENT ONLY and a SPECIFIC NUMBER. There could be 5000 positions but the ONLY method for AA furloughees to access anything is by DISPLACEMENT ONLY.

However there is ONE situation provided by Letter 3 that allows a furloughed AA pilot to claim a vacancy (the ONLY place the term VACANCY is used AND THEREFORE THE ONLY TIME IT APPLIES) and that is described in Section C, again AS WRITTEN IN VERBATIM :

Section C. If no CJ Captain position at AMR Eagle, Inc. is available for a furloughed AA pilot, such pilot shall not have any further DIPLACEMENT rights at AMR Eagle, Inc. and shall be furloughed as an AA pilot, with the exception that a furloughed AA pilot who is DISPLACED FROM CJ CAPTAIN STATUS may elect either of the following options :

*There are three, but I'll only list the first as the other two are not pertient to the process of flow-back directly from AA.

1. Such pilot may use seniority accrued at AMR Eagle, Inc. to bid a vacancy or displace at such carrier in accordance with the applicable collective bargaining agreement provided that no AMR Eagle, Inc. pilot on the current Eagle seniority list will be furloughed as a result of this provision consistent with Paragraph IV. K. below or....

You'll note that the language in Section C re-affirmes the term DISPLACEMENT as described in Section A, as the ONLY method of flow-back. It also says that the only person who can DISPLACE a furloughed AA pilot currently flying as CJ Captain is a more senior AA pilot.

Then that displaced AA furloughee/CJ Captain can use his accrued EAGLE seniority to bid a vacancy should that EAGLE seniority hold one (hello SJU ATR F/O).

Actually the next paragraph (2.) provides for 10 years of recall for that displaced AA furloughee/CJ Captain IN REVERSE ORDER OF AA SENIORITY, but he must first accept furlough.

As for the CRJ's, The captain seats are available under the same flow-back rights above, DISPLACEMENT ONLY AND ONLY THOSE JUNIOR TO YOU ON THE AA LIST, A JUNIOR FLOWBACK OR THOSE WITHOUT AN AA SENIORITY NUMBER.

The attempted FORCED transfer of these aircraft have NOTHING to do with letter 3. There are no provisions (or rights to ANY other pilot group) for this action.

As per our SCOPE clause (AA is not the only pilot group with some form of scope), Once an aircraft is placed at Eagle it cannot be transferred unless affected pilots are transferred with them -or- the company sells the aircraft. AMR cannot sell aircraft to themselves, so the option would be transfer of our pilots, in addition to a "cost-neutral" scenario.

You're right about leverage. But THIS TIME Eagle ALPA is on clean ground. It may take court action, but if not defended Eagle will no longer have a valid seniority list.

A pilot group without a seniority list or seniority rights has nothing left worth defending.

There is nothing more dangerous than people with nothing left to lose.

717, your faulty assertions are another example of a total lack of understanding of the latest in a series of major blunders by the APA. I have yet to meet a mainline pilot who has any idea of what Supplement W/Letter 3 is about.

Tell Darrah to SQUANDER his one-item. He'll wish he kept it for something more vital (and rewarding) in the future.

* Note to Eagle pilots, although I'll not comment on what one chooses to post, RULE 32 ONLY applies to employees of YOUR company, not to pilots from other carriers or to someone in a supermarket, etc.

 

[PacoPollo]

LETTER 3 ALL THE WAY.......

 

[PHXFLYR]

After reading some of these AA/TWA/AE posts , I'm gonna have to think long and hard before I put my wife and kids on any of there airplanes.

PHXFLYR

 

[bluesideup1]

Make sure not to wonder over and read the Delta/ASA/Comair/Skywest/**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**aqua or the US air/Jet for Jobs/WO's/non-WO's, or the America West/Mesa/Freedom, etc. Otherwise you will be very limited on who you can stick your family on.

 

[Goose17]

Send em Fed Ex

You can always send them FedEx. Just pad the box and cut some air holes.

I am starting to realize the beauty of flying for a cargo airline.

Goose17

 

[Letter3.org]

I'm finding that, these days, there is no right or wrong in the airline business, there's only leverage.TC

AA717driver

APA is obviously stooping to mgmt's level with regard to Supp W/Letter 3. What is very disappointing is the lack of AA pilots that are outraged by this. The typical response to Eagle pilots from AA pilots is that we should be lucky to get what we have. Anyone who thinks that should flow back to see what "lucky" feels like!

What APA does right and does wrong affects the profession of ALL airline pilots from A to Z. When it only thinks of itself at the expense of trying to sabotage the contract of another labor union - even if it's those Eagle pilots you might say - it's a SAD day for organized labor everywhere!

What we need are leaders that either live up to their word or negotiate a civilized solution to the problems at hand. The kind of leadership that we are seeing now from management and APA is the very lowest form - CAVEMAN. The caveman leads by beating you into submission with his "club" in this case the threat of mass displacements. You follow because you have to, not because you believe in the mission, or in this case the airline.

I would doubt any of us see the virtues of this kind of leadership, but it is PRECISELY the type that has put most of the airline industry into this horrible situation. How so many well-educated people can think this is the best way to run any company or organization is beyond me.

 

[PacoPollo]

Remember AE exists because of APA...Or at least thats what they think..So thats why they come in and Gamble with AE contract.Letter 3 is the answer.

AArogance+,scAAbs=APA

 

[Letter3.org]

Well, whatever the reason for civilized people not living up to written contracts or negotiating a solution to a problem, one can be sure that AMR has a LONG way to go before the average line employee views management with any sense of credibility. In this case, ditto for APA.

This is not a good way for Mr. Arpey to take over. His ability to lead is compromised from the outset. If we ever needed a leader, it is now.

 

[pilot141]

To get back to the OP

The preliminary results of the MOAB are out, and it looks like folks hired in 1999 are safe; anyone hired in 2000 is either gone or so close to being gone as to be worthless. The Dec 99 class will have about 100 people below it when all is said and done. This is based on current manning and planned retirements; any early retirements will reduce the number of furloughs.

Now, please no flames about "A 1903 TWA hire will be furloughed!!", etc. The OP asked about how far back the furloughs would go.....meaning AA new-hire furloughs. The "fairness" of the seniority list has nothing to do with the facts...and in this case, the facts are that anyone hired after 1999 by AA is looking at losing their job (including me).

The ways that AMR management has screwed up could fill volumes; the way that the APA has screwed up could also fill volumes. This thread is not the place for that.

Unfortunately as soon as I post this someone will come along and call me either "AArogant" or a "scAAb" because my paycheck says AA. I'll just direct those comments to that nearby brick wall and have everyone else judge my posts on their merits.

Once again: if you want to discuss APA's, AMR's or ALPA's shortcomings, start a new thread where everyone feels free to pile on. That way you can vent all your pent-up anger without hijacking every single thread that appears with "AA" in the title.

 

[ex nav]

PILOT141,

Thanks for the info. It is very kind of you to take the time to post that info so those of us on the "outside" looking in can know the latest.

If it helps you to know, I feel your pain, as I know exactly how you feel. I was among the first group that was furloughed.

If there is any bright side in any of this, it's you will be at the top when the recalls begin. I pray that they will.

I hope that at the AA pilots (former TWA included) get back just as soon as possible. Hope those that are left at AA can "right the ship" and get it back on course soonest.

Here's to POSITIVE posts and out with the bickering. It's time folks started using their energies for constructive issues.

Good luck and keep the faith.....

 

[pilot141]

ex nav thanks for the words.

Lots of rumors are running around that the furloughs won't go as deep as AA predicted. As I've said before, I won't believe anything now unless I see it, but I remain hopeful. As per company procedure H-1, which states "The company shall hire pilots until it is deemed necessary to furlough pilots, at which time the company will furlough pilots until it is deemed necessary to recall pilots" I expect the last people to be furloughed to be out for only a few months.

I really hope that we can get people back in seats soon; having the twin distinctions of "lowest paid major" and "most pilots on furlough" isn't exactly what I hoped for when I came here.




Note: the line about company procedure H-1 was a joke (hence the smiley face). Do not ask me for a link to CP H-1!

 

[Hagar17]

22 year-old hires

Holdon:

The only outfit that hired "22 year olds" that I know of was TWA. THAT'S why you see so many 35 year-old TWA captains crying about how they "paid their dues." You idiots wouldn't have even been close to holding a left seat anywhere else, so you rolled the dice and stayed with a floundering company in hopes that it would all work out and you would spend 25-30 years of your career as a captain. Now you cry about how you were rooked. You weren't rooked, you lost, just like I lost by not going to class with UPS or SWA.

If TWA was so great, why were there SIX former TWAers in my indoc class, with FIVE in the class before mine, and FOUR in the class after? Kudwa came and spoke to us and joked that TWA couldn't train pilots fast enough for us. Should you be placed on the seniority list ahead of them?

As far as the Eagle moron that called APA guys scabs, you need to understand the meaning of the word before you mouth off. Flowthrough/Flowback is a two-way street, my friend. None of you Eagle guys were complaining about being injected into the AA seniority list when times were good. I'll even venture to say the chance to flowthrough is why you're at Eagle. YOU'RE pissed at something YOUR union agreed to that has now dried up. Sit down and shut up.

Why do I come to this board?

Hagar17
AA Sep '00 hire

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

HAGAR 17, You obviously don't have a freakin' clue so get your facts straight before you feel justified mouthing off about what Eagle pilots think or should think! The "two-way" street isn't two-way and never was. It's only ONE way, YOUR way and to YOUR benefit, not MINE. I will never benefit from the "agreement" (that you want to arbitrarily and ILLEGALLY change). Unless you consider going from six years as a captain to a lifetime F/O a benefit. So I would suggest educating yourself before you perpetuate the unflattering reputation that AA pilots have. If you object to the term "SCAAB", then don't act like one!

 

[COpilot]

Pilot141, thank you for an informative post. However, could you give me a brief explaination of where the Jr TW CA is on the list, and for kicks a late '87 hire?

To others, PLEASE use the word SCAB correctly! It has nothing to do with the way any of you are using it...

Greg Lewis
Continental Airlines
EX B737CA, now B767FO
DOH 9/87 (after the strike)

 

[Hagar17]

Moron

HAGAR 17, You obviously don't have a freakin' clue so get your facts straight before you feel justified mouthing off about what Eagle pilots think or should think! The "two-way" street isn't two-way and never was. It's only ONE way, YOUR way and to YOUR benefit, not MINE. I will never benefit from the "agreement" (that you want to arbitrarily and ILLEGALLY change). Unless you consider going from six years as a captain to a lifetime F/O a benefit. So I would suggest educating yourself before you perpetuate the unflattering reputation that AA pilots have. If you object to the term "SCAAB", then don't act like one!

Widemouth ATR:

So six years as a captain at Eagle "entitles" you to a job at AA? I DO have a clue because I know that's EXACTLY how you think!! That agreement is of NO benefit to me because I won't EVER flow back to Eagle. As far as my "unflattering reputation" that I share with other AA pilots, I could give a sh!t less! You guys were all for the flowthrough, the flip side of that is flowback. So bend over and take it. Blame ALPA, not me or AA pilots in general.

Sounds like a two-way street to me.

Say that scab smack to me when you're riding an AA jumpseat, jerk. You have no concept of what a scab is. Talk to my best friend's Dad about that (former EAL).

I apologize to the other 99% of Eagle pilots.

 

[Letter3.org]

You guys were all for the flowthrough, the flip side of that is flowback. So bend over and take it. Blame ALPA, not me or AA pilots in general.

Sounds like you're misinformed. ALPA nor the Eagle pilots are the ones trying to make unilateral changes to the flow back. On the contrary, we're trying to make sure Letter 3/Supp W stands as is or that any changes are done in a legitimate way - all parties agree. We know that AA pilots have a right to hundreds of RJ captain seats, but we object to the changes that give recall rights into the RJ for potentially thousands of furloughee!

Letter 3 was negotiated as "limited up, limited back". APA didn't want a free-for-all of Eagle pilots coming over in the good times and we didn't want a free-for-all of AA pilots coming back in bad times. When the Eagle contract was voted in back in '97, we accepted the total package which included Letter 3 as is. Flow Through was a big reason we took the garbage in the rest of the contract For the company and APA to make changes without ALPA's consent is to take away what at the time and maybe in the future will be a contract benefit.

If APA really wants all of the growth captain positions at Eagle, they should start by bringing something of value to the table that would be appealing to the majority of Eagle pilots. In the good times, APA could have easily talked Eagle pilots into being on the bottom of the list, but APA is too proud of their heritage to do something like that. So now they choose to "take" the jobs instead in spite of their "word" when they signed Letter 3. If your union gets away with these changes, they are no better than highway robbers.

That's a despicable way for a labor union to treat another labor union - "union" being the operative word that implies strength through numbers. We have the same management, but APA thinks it has enough numbers to get management's full attention. I guess that's why SCOPE is alive and well and prospering the AA pilots. Keep up the good work and sound Eagle policy APA....

www.letter3.org

 

[PacoPollo]

I Dont have any problems having APA pilots at Eagle, as long as they are AT THE BOTTOM OF OUR LIST. .Do they think they are better or something?
The ball is on ALPA's side.Letter 3 as is or negotiate with AE ALPA
Some agreement that doesnt benefit APA all together.

As for HAGAR17 whats your problem bro..TacoBell wont even hire you with that attitude.

 

[Hagar17]

Paco:

My problem, dude, is being called a "scAAb." I agree that wholesale changes to the flowthrough/flowback agreement are wrong. I was speaking more about Eagle guys that were complaining about the flowback a year-and-a-half ago, right after 9/11. There was an Eagle guy on my Fokker jumpseat that said the few guys that flowed back in 2001 were stealing Eagle pilot's jobs. That is why I appear misinformed. Those few, and I mean few, guys that flowed back to Eagle were exercising a negotiated contractural benefit. APA changing the deal mid-stream is wrong. In my world, a deal's a deal. APA trying to put 2500 guys in Eagle RJ seats is wrong and I won't have any part in supporting that. I am more angry with APA than any Eagle pilot could ever be. My attitude problem is with someone that calls me a scab because of the emblem on my hat.

Letter3, thank you for the level-headed and thoughtful response. I have to hand it to you Eagle guys, you all know your contract. I wish more APA guys paid the same attention to their green book as they do the green you putt on.

Paco, would you like soft or crunchy?

Hag

 

[PacoPollo]

How about a beer

 

[WIDEBODY ATR]

HAGAR 17, You ignorant little puke. Where did I say that being a six year captain "ENTITLED" me to be an AA pilot? You are so freakin' stupid! I said that your ILLEGAL agreement will force me to move BACKWARDS in my OWN company that I was hired at to work. I have no interest in being anywhere near you and your little golf buddies. And for those of you that are cautioning about the use of the word SCAAB, we're being polite in using that term because in actuality, they're much worse! A scab is clearly someone who is willing to ILLEGALLY take someone else's job and that is exactly what will happen to me. Yes, it IS personal and I would LOVE to have you in my jumpseat. I'm sure that would never happen though, because everyone knows that turbo-props and particularly EAGLE turbo-prop pilots are not safe nor smart enough to fly jets. That is what you think, right? Have a nice freakin' day and kiss my a$$