American Master Re-Bid

[pilot141]

This message board is a JOKE!

After the original question was posted, there was one (ONE!) helpful response by justApilot and then the sarcasm, snide remarks and general a**holery began. It seems that anything is a good excuse for the APA/AA bashers (whether they are TWA, Eagle, ALPA or whoever) to get their hackles up and post worthless invective on this board. The same is true when any thread gets started about Delta, it's just different bashers.

Message boards like this provide a level of anonymity that allow people to speak their minds and express things that they sometimes wouldn't say in front of people they know. This CAN be a good thing, like asking about the lifestyle at XYZ airline without having anyone but you know that you might be looking for a new job.

Unfortunately people here have used the Internet Anonymity Shield to transform themselves into the most rabid, zealous and backstabbing people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.

Yes, there are bad feelings out there, but remember that this thread started out as a question about the master bid run at AA. If any of you want to start a thread about how APA sucks, or how Eagle gets screwed at every opportunity, or how the whole world should honor an X-year captain, then by all means START YOUR OWN THREAD!

Bottom line.....hijacking is bad .

 

[pylut]

posted by pilot 141
"Unfortunately people here have used the Internet Anonymity Shield to transform themselves into the most rabid, zealous and backstabbing people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter."

I find that hard to believe considering you work and associate with individuals from aa/apa.

 

[blott]

After the original question was posted, there was one (ONE!) helpful response by justApilot

If you wanted to thank justApilot, then you said enough right there.

Why continue on with your post and WASTE my, and everyone else's, time with the rest of your lengthy post? Seems like you are trying to HI-jack your own thread with coments like that. Why don't you try to be part of the solution, instead of furthering the problem?

Wait a min. Looks like I'm falling into the same trap....

B

P.S. Please disregard the above post.

 

[Cleared Direct]

I rather doubt that scope and flowthrough would ever snap back to the verbage of the last contract; but, that seems to be the desire of several from the eagle side of the house.

I have a bit of legal news for you. Letter 3 is the law of the land unless all 4 parties agree to something else. It is very clear in Letter 3 that if there is a conflict between Letter 3 and any contractual language, Letter 3 prevails. The Eagle ALPA MEC and most of the Eagle pilots see the new ratified contractual language at AMR as a bad thing for Eagle pilots in the long run. Although APA did waive their rights to flow back to current EMJ Captain positions, unfortunately for us it also subjects our entire pilot group to a huge vulnerability in giving recall rights to the vacated flowback positions to ALL furloughed AA pilots. We want a negotiated agreement that it good for Eagle, APA, and the company.

The senior group of fuloughed AA pilots have every right to contractually displace 400-500 CJ Captains at Eagle. What they can't do is re-write Letter 3 and magically give all furloughed AA pilots recall rights to positions at Eagle. The cold facts are that the company does not want to spend the large amount of money and time to displace these postions. APA will not ask for even more concessions from their members to secure additional jobs at Eagle outside of Letter 3. A negotiated settlement is the best for all.

If you want some more informative reading on Letter 3 / Supplement W, than check out this site:

http://www.letter3.org/

Why do you think AMR didn't engage Eagle ALPA in negotiations ? I am genuinely curious. Especially since AMR was really dictating, not "negotiating" with it's unions.

While it is true that AMR was dictating most of the concession terms to the unions, they also desperately needed to appease APA enough to ensure the ratification of the important terms. AMR has never been concerned with appeasing Eagle. They would sacrifice Eagle in a minute to please APA. To involve Eagle ALPA in the negotiated concessions would only complicate the process, and possibly prevent APA from ratifying the terms. Instead the company chose to lead you down a dead end alley and promise things they knew they could not necessarily give you. They know there will be a negotiated or arbitrated settlement that will surely be cheaper than if APA had not chosen to ratify the TA and followed by a rushed Chapter 11 filing.

Now AMR has a baseline of concessionary labor agreements and even concessions from its vendors. These were crucial steps that AMR desperately wanted before they file Chapter 11.

 

[eaglefly]

JustA - WRONG ! It is a CONTRACTUAL REQUIREMENT for negotiations between AMR, APA and Eagle ALPA.

80drvr (also known as "pal") - You are terribly uninformed regarding Eagle's Letter 3. The corrupt and ethically bankrupt thugs leading your union falsely imply that acceptance of this unilaterally devised "new" flow-back agreement is better for the helpless and subservient pilots of Eagle.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Should this illegal aspect of your TA go unchallenged, it would harm Eagle pilots FAR more than forced acceptance.

I'll explain why.

Letter 3 provides for the DISPLACEMENT of current flow-thru captains ONLY by those AA pilots senior to them.

THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO PROVISIONS FOR AA FURLOUGHEES TO FILL NEW AIRCRAFT VACANCIES.

As a result, a specific and limited number of AA pilots would be eligable to flow-back. That is approximately 450 based on the CURRENT estimated number of furloughs.

Once any given Eagle flow-thru captain is DISPLACED by an AA furloughee SENIOR to them, that captain has the ability to reclaim a new vacancy and then be protected from displacement because at that point all remaining AA furloughees WOULD BE JUNIOR TO THEM ON THE AA LIST and thus cannot displace them.

This will ultimately result in an even smaller number of available slots for flow-backs once the process begins.

Flow-thru captains were awarded "occupational seniority" that carries little weight at AA until that pilot is on the AA payroll. But, at Eagle that "occupational seniority" still provides him value with respect to AA furloughee rights regarding pilots JUNIOR to him on the AA list.

Under the "NEW" illegal Supplement W, Eagle pilots forfeit ALL rights to new vacancies AND inaddition allow access to Eagle captains seats by pilots previously PROHIBITED from flow-back access as represented by AMR. That would be the pilots of TWA.

So under current Letter 3, AA furloughees get at most a few hundred slots. No one here would argue that because THAT HAS, AND IS, THE AGREEMENT.

Under the new illegal TA, for all intents and purposes, the sky's the limit. THAT IS NOT, AND HAS NEVER BEEN, THE AGREEMENT.

But that is not the worst aspect of this filth devised by the APA. What really would virtually nullify any seniority protections of our agreement is should Eagle ALPA just capitulate, it would set a precedent that could allow AMR or the APA to rechange the definitions and boundaries of Letter 3 in the future.

Any number of changes including but not limited to, extending flow-back rights to mainline furloughees indefinitely, cancelation of Eagle flow-thru numbers at expiration of Letter 3, inclusion of future pilots not currently on the AA seniority list but acquired through another merger or acquisition, etc., etc.

If that is allowed to occur, the pilots of Eagle will forever forfeit the most senior positions at their airline to the whim of another pilots groups union.

That my friend, will not be allowed to occur. At that point EVERY single Eagle pilot might as well resign and let AMR figure out how to staff 250 parked airplanes BEFORE the resultant customer and revenue loss forces them into immeadiate bankruptcy. We'll see what the liars and cheats of the APA say when the four parties supposedly meet later this week to discuss the situation.

In the mean time, fly safe "pal".

P.S. AMR NEVER negotiates first. They only do that when "dictating" and "threatening" no longer works.

Of all people, AA pilots should have figured that out by now.

 

[justApilot]

Well atleast there was enough juice left in the swell this PM.

 

[80drvr]

To 80 pilot and Just a pilot: F**k you both!

You have no idea in the slightest how much hatred and venom flows through the F/O's at Eagle. You have NO idea. Don't think empty threats will make us back down on inch. Maybe you military guys will think about the classes you took during OCS about subversion and counter-espionage. Do you really think we are all just 20 something kids flying around in RJ's. I can't wait until you boys trickle into our world you have no idea what you are in for. Do think that the full implementation of Letter 3 or Supplement W will effect the F/O's at Eagle...NO! We are covered by a cause that prevents our furlough.
You APA guys may have gotten things right your way but I assure you those who come to the Eagle side will certainly not be so lucky. We are waiting and there will be a restoration of Jim Crow laws for all of you. APA you had your chance and we (Eagle pilots) tried numberious times to get together but you stabbed us in the back. Good luck to your future because we got your number....

No ScAAbs!

I was an Eagle pilot.

 

[justApilot]

Resistance....and others that feel the need to make threatening remarks....

I understand your frustration but....I along with, I would think, the vast majority subscribed to this forum do not appreciate your threats on this thread or any other thread. I think it is time to start signing your posts with your name and airline that employs you. That way we know who you really are.

Stu Peterson
AA





To 80 pilot and Just a pilot: F**k you both!

You have no idea in the slightest how much hatred and venom flows through the F/O's at Eagle. You have NO idea. Don't think empty threats will make us back down on inch. Maybe you military guys will think about the classes you took during OCS about subversion and counter-espionage. Do you really think we are all just 20 something kids flying around in RJ's. I can't wait until you boys trickle into our world you have no idea what you are in for. Do think that the full implementation of Letter 3 or Supplement W will effect the F/O's at Eagle...NO! We are covered by a cause that prevents our furlough.
You APA guys may have gotten things right your way but I assure you those who come to the Eagle side will certainly not be so lucky. We are waiting and there will be a restoration of Jim Crow laws for all of you. APA you had your chance and we (Eagle pilots) tried numberious times to get together but you stabbed us in the back. Good luck to your future because we got your number....

No ScAAbs!

 

[AA717driver]

Eaglefly--Re: "There are absolutely no provisions for AA furloughees to fill new aircraft vacancies."

I read Letter 3 Sec. IV A. to say that, other than the Eagle rights pilots, AA furlougees can displace or move into a CJ CA position at AE "...provided that the number of CJ Captain positions available to furloughed AA pilots will be limited to the total number of CJ Captain positions at AMR Eagle, Inc. less the number of Eagle rights CJ Captains." That guarantees positions only to the Eagle Rights CA's.

Yes, AA furloughees cannot displace more "senior" flowthrough Eagle CA's, but it doesn't guarantee new aircraft positions to AE CA's. Maybe technically it does, but the flowthroughs are already CA's and no new upgrades are guaranteed to the current FO's so you get stuffed by IV A.

As for the CRJ's, if AA moves them from the Eagle certificate to the AA certificate, then Eagle has no CRJ's and thus, no rights to them. You aren't thinking outside the box. I know you guys are frustrated but there are over 2000 AA people who are more frustrated or about to be. Sup W sucks. I'm finding that, these days, there is no right or wrong in the airline business, there's only leverage.TC

 

[justApilot]

Resistance...

I am very aware of 32. Maybe you should think twice before making threats on a public forum. Just because you hide behind a screen name does not mean that I don't know who you are. Good luck bro.

 

[eaglefly]

717 - In order to "think outside the box" one needs to identify the boundaries of the box they exist in.

Here is that section of Letter 3, AS WRITTEN IN VERBATIM :

Section IV. (A.) A pilot furloughed from AA may displace a CJ captain at an AMR Eagle, Inc. carrier provided that the number of CJ Captain positions available to furloughed AA pilots will be limited to the total number of CJ Captain positions at AMR Eagle, Inc. less the number of Eagle Rights CJ Captains.

You've added a non-existant personal interpretation ("move in to") and than quoted the last half of the paragraph. As you can see there is a SPECIFIC and single term used to allow an AA furloughee to flow-back to an Eagle CJ Captain position from AA and that is by DISPLACEMENT ONLY and a SPECIFIC NUMBER. There could be 5000 positions but the ONLY method for AA furloughees to access anything is by DISPLACEMENT ONLY.

However there is ONE situation provided by Letter 3 that allows a furloughed AA pilot to claim a vacancy (the ONLY place the term VACANCY is used AND THEREFORE THE ONLY TIME IT APPLIES) and that is described in Section C, again AS WRITTEN IN VERBATIM :

Section C. If no CJ Captain position at AMR Eagle, Inc. is available for a furloughed AA pilot, such pilot shall not have any further DIPLACEMENT rights at AMR Eagle, Inc. and shall be furloughed as an AA pilot, with the exception that a furloughed AA pilot who is DISPLACED FROM CJ CAPTAIN STATUS may elect either of the following options :

*There are three, but I'll only list the first as the other two are not pertient to the process of flow-back directly from AA.

1. Such pilot may use seniority accrued at AMR Eagle, Inc. to bid a vacancy or displace at such carrier in accordance with the applicable collective bargaining agreement provided that no AMR Eagle, Inc. pilot on the current Eagle seniority list will be furloughed as a result of this provision consistent with Paragraph IV. K. below or....

You'll note that the language in Section C re-affirmes the term DISPLACEMENT as described in Section A, as the ONLY method of flow-back. It also says that the only person who can DISPLACE a furloughed AA pilot currently flying as CJ Captain is a more senior AA pilot.

Then that displaced AA furloughee/CJ Captain can use his accrued EAGLE seniority to bid a vacancy should that EAGLE seniority hold one (hello SJU ATR F/O).

Actually the next paragraph (2.) provides for 10 years of recall for that displaced AA furloughee/CJ Captain IN REVERSE ORDER OF AA SENIORITY, but he must first accept furlough.

As for the CRJ's, The captain seats are available under the same flow-back rights above, DISPLACEMENT ONLY AND ONLY THOSE JUNIOR TO YOU ON THE AA LIST, A JUNIOR FLOWBACK OR THOSE WITHOUT AN AA SENIORITY NUMBER.

The attempted FORCED transfer of these aircraft have NOTHING to do with letter 3. There are no provisions (or rights to ANY other pilot group) for this action.

As per our SCOPE clause (AA is not the only pilot group with some form of scope), Once an aircraft is placed at Eagle it cannot be transferred unless affected pilots are transferred with them -or- the company sells the aircraft. AMR cannot sell aircraft to themselves, so the option would be transfer of our pilots, in addition to a "cost-neutral" scenario.

You're right about leverage. But THIS TIME Eagle ALPA is on clean ground. It may take court action, but if not defended Eagle will no longer have a valid seniority list.

A pilot group without a seniority list or seniority rights has nothing left worth defending.

There is nothing more dangerous than people with nothing left to lose.

717, your faulty assertions are another example of a total lack of understanding of the latest in a series of major blunders by the APA. I have yet to meet a mainline pilot who has any idea of what Supplement W/Letter 3 is about.

Tell Darrah to SQUANDER his one-item. He'll wish he kept it for something more vital (and rewarding) in the future.

* Note to Eagle pilots, although I'll not comment on what one chooses to post, RULE 32 ONLY applies to employees of YOUR company, not to pilots from other carriers or to someone in a supermarket, etc.

 

[PacoPollo]

LETTER 3 ALL THE WAY.......

 

[PHXFLYR]

After reading some of these AA/TWA/AE posts , I'm gonna have to think long and hard before I put my wife and kids on any of there airplanes.

PHXFLYR

 

[bluesideup1]

Make sure not to wonder over and read the Delta/ASA/Comair/Skywest/**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**aqua or the US air/Jet for Jobs/WO's/non-WO's, or the America West/Mesa/Freedom, etc. Otherwise you will be very limited on who you can stick your family on.

 

[Goose17]

Send em Fed Ex

You can always send them FedEx. Just pad the box and cut some air holes.

I am starting to realize the beauty of flying for a cargo airline.

Goose17