American at Love: Faking Angina

[canyonblue]

I thought you worked the strong and mighty Southwest? What, you still think you're the little kid on the block? Nice try.

Remember where I work. It's the finite place as you call it.

You appear to be the Southwest employee working for a company that has no option but to grow with finite options on where to go because of aircraft size.

I know your business plan has flaws and I know your growth potential is finite. Did you know that? Probably not.

 

[ivauir]

TexasSWA,

I know his comment wasn't directed at our pilot group. I just don't think it's very proper for the pilots of one airline to ridicule another airline's management over decisions that we the pilots don't make. Because then it starts to border on arrogance, i.e. "I fly for an airline that makes great business decisions, and you don't." You see, if AA fails miserably at Love, we the employees end up paying for it, one way or another - even though we didn't make that choice to begin with.

My take on all this is to simply wish the SWA and AA pilots luck, because to sit here and gloat about my airline making good decisions and yours making crappy ones is totally out of place.

Like I said, the SWA pilot group always earned my respect on how laid back they were. Now all of a sudden with all this WA stuff going on, it seems like there is more and more arrogance - specifically aimed at AA - 1 and it's just not what I'd expected to see from the SWA guys. What happened?

AA73,
thanks for not over reacting to the hyberbole. Don't think that just because someone posts "SWA FO" in their profile that it is true. And when it is true don't consider it representative of the group.

That being said, a SWA guy can't post on here without getting ripped into by every flopgut or skyboss on the web. I find myself getting a little defensive, and why? Because we are doing OK? Because my manegment team is making good choices? I'm not going to appologize for our sucess (i'm not taking credit for it either).

 

[TexaSWA]

aa73,

What I mean is that I agree that since we have little to do with the sucess or failure of our companies, it is rediculous to chunck rocks across the metroplex at each other.

I will however correct someone when they are wrong. (furloughfodder)

I hope it works out well for us all.

 

[aa73]

Ditto, well said. Good luck to us all (especially us AA types...)

 

[Hamburgler]

Wow, finally a sane thread on this topic - with a new angle! I fear that I come down with FlopGut and SkyBoss on this issue, but it's nice to see that we can all discuss this like sane adults and not react like the other side is calling out our moms or something ...

 

[mach zero]

Wow, finally a sane thread on this topic - with a new angle! I fear that I come down with FlopGut and SkyBoss on this issue, but it's nice to see that we can all discuss this like sane adults and not react like the other side is calling out our moms or something ...

I wish this was the case with the AA jumpseat. I elected to stop using it to get to work after the second time an AA Captain jumped down my throat about the Wright Amendment. Both times they refused to even shake my hand or introduce themselves. They just launched into a tirade on the subject.

 

[flyinglow]

Oh my God!! Does this mean AA is actually going to have to compete for their customers? The way they act they should change their name to "Marxist Airlines".

Much the same could be said of SWA.

 

[aa73]

I wish this was the case with the AA jumpseat. I elected to stop using it to get to work after the second time an AA Captain jumped down my throat about the Wright Amendment. Both times they refused to even shake my hand or introduce themselves. They just launched into a tirade on the subject.

That's lame, and I hope you reported them to your j/s comittee. Because had you been on my j/s, you would have had an enjoyable experience. We had a SWA guy on ours last month from PHX to DFW and we spent the whole flight laughing and BSing about all sorts of stuff. And yes the WA topic did come up briefly, to which I responded that it was basically history and we (AA) would have to learn how to cope.

 

[chase]

aa73,

For years you have posted sane and rational comments on a variety of topics...always with decorum...thanks for doing so again. The WA is probably the first truly "offensive" action (KCI in SEA was the 2nd) that SWA has done for quite awhile. Many employees have expressed views after 911 that SWA needed to be more offensively minded during the reccesion? Why? In fact SWA has had its greatest growth spurts during these reccesions & capitalized on the downturn to take market share.

After 911 many thought the same rule could apply but with changes in leadership & styles (HK gave up the CEO position to Jim Parker Apr '01...Colleen B made prez & then 911 hits...JP retires '04) the assertiveness didn't appear to be there (my summation & interpreation of how others within the company have viewed the last 4 years) & with the "charge of the light brigade" against the WA, a new banner was raised that has gotten the employee groups energized. This "over the top" enthusiasm at a time when most airlines are struggling comes across to some as arrogance or insensitive. Remember the days of Crandall if you will & I think this is the environment that he loved more than any, when he new he had a tremendous business opportunity & the cards were falling in his favor. He was a very tough businessman, some would say ruthless. I don't view GK or his team in the same way but their doggedness & focus I believe is admirable while still maintaining their humbleness (in the eyes of some, not all no doubt).

GK is trying to return 15% to his shareholders next year...his word is riding on it...I admire a man that is willing to ruffle a few "traditional myths" to accomplish a goal. I'm hopeful that AA & other carriers will survive & prosper....many friends, including you are there & I wish them well. I also hope that SWA continues to prosper & grow. The "tone" that some may have about shouting about the virtues of working at SWA or our business model or other aspects of SWA in light of the current industry slump may appear as insensitive....at times it probably has been in my opinion. Humor, sarcasm is hard to judge on any website but I think you would agree there are some on here who spin any news as negative toward SWA. posters on here..just as folks who have heartburn about Reno Air & TWA attempt to label current AA pilots as the cause of their demise....we're mostly pilots on here....imagine if there was forum for airline executives to lay into each other...I'd buy a subscription just to read the posts, wouldn't you? Have a great weekend & thanks for giving one of my buds a ride...hope to return the favor one day.

 

[aa73]

Chase,

Actually, they don't need a forum. ever heard of a club called "Los Conquistadores del Cielo"... it's a high and mighty get together for airline executives featuring such manly feats as knife throwing, bull riding, etc that takes place once a year on some ranch out in the west. I suspect there's plenty of one uppmanship going on at those meets!

Anyways, what you said is right on, and I appreciate your detailed posts. I know we always have one or two posters here who can't stand airlines that are doing well, and that's just the way it goes.

Good luck to us all, y'all (TX dictionary word) are always welcome on our j/s, and I promise that if I were a captain, I'd be given you guys a run for your money on taxi speeds once we come into DAL - unlike most of our SLOW POKE gomers.

Cheers!
73

 

[Bosley]

I agree. But first, we need hear some more whining from Delta telling us how wonderful they are.

Do you ever have anything nice to say to delta or the delta pilots?? Sheeeeeeeesh!

 

[fox51ramprat]

aa73,

I agree that since we have little to do with the sucess or failure of our companies

I feel that the employees have a lot to do with the success of Southwest. Everything you read about the company talks about putting the employees first and getting huge returns. I don't even work there yet and I've already figured this out.

An AMR friend told me that the employees have been telling management that they need to be more productive and do things that make sense. Management responds by spending gobs of money to hire a consulting firm that comes back with the answwer..."You need to be more productive and do things differently" The culture of the two airlines is polar opposite. I do not understand why AA is moving some ops to Love when they could just lower fares from DFW. They do this and then want to talk with APA about the future and what the union is going to do to help out.

 

[aa73]

Fox51,

I think you JUST MIGHT have cracked the code on how they do things at AMR!

 

[T45Flyer]

Piggybacking on what Chase and AA73 have said. We at SWA are very fortunate to have a great leadership team in the front office. It is very easy to get caught up in the emotion and esprite de corps and forget who we are.

I really enjoy talking to pilots from other airlines on our jumpseat. As a very smart man once said "Be careful how you treat others on your rise to the top, because you will see those same people on your way back down." Cheers.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

That is a good one coming from a SWA guy. Here are just a few examples I can think of showing how SWA HATES to compete, and tries every trick in the book to avoid competition:

1. Flies out of Midway, not OHare
2. Scared of flying out of DEN (until recently) uses Springs instead
3. Tries to get approval to fly out of Boeing Field because too many airlines already fly out of Sea-Tac
4. Monopoly on Love Field, starts to cry when another airlines tries to move in

i am sure there are a ton more....

Does Southwest serve Springs, as in Colorado Springs? (COS)

Why should Southwest serve ORD if MDW serves them well?

 

[chase]

fox51ramprat,

You're observations are in line with what I see when I talk to employees at SWA & listen to those who work at other carriers...here's a "for example" in terms of how SWA is dealing with a problem.

Turn times are a real concern for SWA...adding 5 minutes to every turn for the 3000+ flights that we have would require another 40 airplanes for purchasing....therefore turn times are key to our productivity (anyone's for that matter) so keeping those tight is important. The dilemma is that tight turn times means baggage problems can arrise. SWA's baggage success/failure as measured by DOT is not where they wish to have it right now...too many mistakes....60% of the lost bags never get on the aircraft because of mishandling at the sorting locations (T-point) or because the bag doesn't get identified properly at the counter & never makes it to the T point on time)...major mistakes that needed to be fixed.

SWA hired some consultants (even SWA does this) & along with SWA employees began to look very hard at the operations in PHX on how to make the turns more productive & minimize lost baggage (just one aspect of the experiment out there but it illustrates how something simple, people, were used to fixed the problem). I asked the person (senior person involved with the process, not a worker bee BTW)I was speaking what was the single most important thing that changed the "process" to make it more efficient? BTW, they cut down on the losses by a significant enough amount to implement the changes...coming to LAS very soon I'm told.

His response was typical of any good leadership technique "if" you have the proper culture/people in place to implement. "We simply drew attention to the problem, told folks we wanted to hold folks accountable & then we made it public for everyone to see each "teams" performance record for all to see as it relates to moving the bags efficiently." How did they do that? They simply instituted a simple process that showed each teams performance spanning a specific timeframe that showed with colors the % of bags that were lost that could be attributed to that "team" who was on duty at the time. Capturing the data was a challenge but at the end of the day & after the test, the employees "wanted" to do their best, it was in plain sight for all to see if they didn't. Peer pressure, pride of workmanship & most important, someone looking each employee in the eye & saying, "your responsible & everyone is watching your performance...don't let us down, we're counting on you to do your part, we need your help" appears to be the management solution.

Not a lot of bells & whistles but a reigniting of the flame of "pride of ownership" I believe that is found in each employee, it simply has to be tapped in to in the proper way. I hope we can do that at other stations & in other areas also....we will need to do that to keep our produtivity up, costs down & efficiency high. Just one illustration at how a problem could be dealt with...it will take time for our numbers to improve in the DOT monthly ratings I'm sure but I think from talking to this individual the groundwork has been laid & will hopefully be successful. Not trying to blow SWA's horn, this technique isn't unique or universally applied just at SWA...I think AA has attempted some of the same types of accountability measures at AA & it has been productive...my apologies for rambling & taking up too much cyberspace for those with short attention span (like mine!)....cheers.

 

[Flopgut]

I have a pretty bad rap on here. I'm sorry. I am not anti SWA. I hope each and every SWA employee continues to enjoy stable and rewarding employment. If any of you were flat broke, broke up, or broke down, I would help you. I just want to see things characterized in their proper respect. Is SWA really that great? Or is what has happened to legacy airlines actually that bad? How is history going to portray things that are happening now? Chases' comments are great, but we sugar coat this economic downturn like it is something normal. As though every event of the last 4.5 years is something we could have prepared for or studied in business school. Nearly every media outlet heralds the success of LCCs and simultaneously assails the legacies like we are some stinking vagrant in the gutter. There is a subtle gleam in the eye of every business news talking head when they speak about lost pensions and dwindling pay and benefits. There is an active lack of challenge to this accepted half truth about how great LCCs are for this country. It is all wrong. Chase: I know you think SWA is just reacting to the market; I think it is more like looting.

The market seems to want to rid itself of the legacy airline. Replace it with the LCC. I don't think that is a good thing from a big picture standpoint. Example: DAL vs. SWA. DAL just ranked in Forbes.com as one of this country's most charitable corporations. Now if there is one airline that you would think would be on this list, you would think it would be SWA. Hardly, I can't even find them on there. (maybe they made the list somewhere, someone find them if you can) Conversely, if you look for corporate charity to be ranked, what does jump out at you is that among large cities, Dallas is ranked as one of the poorest examples of corporate giving. (you will find that AA had to reneg on a bit of giving they had commited to, AA still outpaces SWA in that they offer a way to convert mileage rewards into charitable donations) I guess that what the market is saying is that DAL needs to stop leading airlines in the philanthropy department. Is this a good thing? Good for DAL for trying, sad for SWA I'm afraid.

In the words of Sir Charles: "I might be wrong, but I doubt it". If I am wrong in the least bit, I will beg for an apology.

 

[scoreboard]

Hardly

I have a pretty bad rap on here. I'm sorry. I am not anti SWA. I hope each and every SWA employee continues to enjoy stable and rewarding employment. If any of you were flat broke, broke up, or broke down, I would help you. I just want to see things characterized in their proper respect. Is SWA really that great? Or is what has happened to legacy airlines actually that bad? How is history going to portray things that are happening now? Chases' comments are great, but we sugar coat this economic downturn like it is something normal. As though every event of the last 4.5 years is something we could have prepared for or studied in business school. Nearly every media outlet heralds the success of LCCs and simultaneously assails the legacies like we are some stinking vagrant in the gutter. There is a subtle gleam in the eye of every business news talking head when they speak about lost pensions and dwindling pay and benefits. There is an active lack of challenge to this accepted half truth about how great LCCs are for this country. It is all wrong. Chase: I know you think SWA is just reacting to the market; I think it is more like looting.

The market seems to want to rid itself of the legacy airline. Replace it with the LCC. I don't think that is a good thing from a big picture standpoint. Example: DAL vs. SWA. DAL just ranked in Forbes.com as one of this country's most charitable corporations. Now if there is one airline that you would think would be on this list, you would think it would be SWA. Hardly, I can't even find them on there. (maybe they made the list somewhere, someone find them if you can) Conversely, if you look for corporate charity to be ranked, what does jump out at you is that among large cities, Dallas is ranked as one of the poorest examples of corporate giving. (you will find that AA had to reneg on a bit of giving they had commited to, AA still outpaces SWA in that they offer a way to convert mileage rewards into charitable donations) I guess that what the market is saying is that DAL needs to stop leading airlines in the philanthropy department. Is this a good thing? Good for DAL for trying, sad for SWA I'm afraid.

In the words of Sir Charles: "I might be wrong, but I doubt it". If I am wrong in the least bit, I will beg for an apology.

Flop, You actually had me thinking for the first 3/4's of your first paragraph that you possesed a modicum of decency, only to dash it with the assumption that we at SWA are looters. Well done. Now the response.

First, when you go shopping for a Chevy or Ford or whatever brand you choose, do you go to the dealer that charges the most? Didn't think so.

Second, how is it the "truth" that LCC's are bad for the country? I and many await your response.

Third, regarding Forbes, good for DAL . Now the rest of the story. You have stated how you like to game your system to fly min hours in a month to get max pay. Charitable? Just because we as a company don't rate on a list, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Ronald McDonald House, Toys for Tots, Cancer runs, HEB food drives, Adopt a Pilot. All of these well sponsered by SWA and its PEOPLE. SWA doesn't just give bucks, we give our hearts and most importantly our time. Do you?

 

[CaptainJaguar]

deleted

 

[Flybet3]

I can tell you exactly what happened at Dallas love...how do I know? because I worked at the ramp for american at Dallas love, but after 9/11 they took us back to DFW, and myself and all those low seniority guys where laid off within a week....loved that job