ALPA sues SKYW

[rtmcfi]

This is not a violation of seniority.quote]

If it is not a violation of seniority, what is it?
Quit while your behind......

 

[Minimaniac]

If in 2008 the republican candidate looks like he would win by a landslide, should we as a nation just not have an election? Like ALPA or not, ALPA is at very least fighting to prevent illegal actions by Skywest that would prevent your guaranteed right to organize as a labor group and to seek the best representation available. If in the end you 'westies don't want ALPA, so be it. But do not sit here and give up the legal rights of labor unions that took decades of fighting to secure.

 

[HelloNewman]

If it is not a violation of seniority, what is it?
Quit while your behind......

How about answering the question. If we are not running classes at the time and only one slot is open do you really expect them to run one special class for one person? Do you expect them to pay for 2 months worth of hotels for a TDY while waiting for a pilot to get done with training? Either way is quite unreasonable. It is NOT a violation of seniority.

The most senior ABLE BODIED person is transfered instead of either wasting money on running one special class or wasting money on TDY expenses for a couple months. You complain about how it is a violation of seniority. What are your solutions? How can a union fix this? It is already in the policy manual which is a very reasonable policy. We will probably be done hiring for a little bit sometime this winter. It is absurd to expect the company to run special classes. Do any airlines actually award classes to one person if they aren't doing any hiring at the time?

 

[rtmcfi]

How about answering the question. If we are not running classes at the time and only one slot is open do you really expect them to run one special class for one person? Do you expect them to pay for 2 months worth of hotels for a TDY while waiting for a pilot to get done with training? Either way is quite unreasonable. It is NOT a violation of seniority.

The most senior ABLE BODIED person is transfered instead of either wasting money on running one special class or wasting money on TDY expenses for a couple months. You complain about how it is a violation of seniority. What are your solutions? How can a union fix this? It is already in the policy manual which is a very reasonable policy. We will probably be done hiring for a little bit sometime this winter. It is absurd to expect the company to run special classes. Do any airlines actually award classes to one person if they aren't doing any hiring at the time?

How about you join the rest of us in the real world.
1. When do you see an airline with 2700 pilots stopping training. Unless something awful happens, attrition alone will keep the training department going.

2. In your scenario, the company is going to first crank up the PBS line credit. Next, they will flow other pilots from other domiciles through the base that is short. Ever see someone from DEN or SLC doing turns in and out of ORD? Once that option no longer works, reserves will be doing those trips. Once there is sufficient demand to run a class, it will happen. No one expects, or receives an individual class. I hope you already knew that. I hope you don't really think your fantasy-land scenario is an issue that would come up at OO.

3. If a company places a Jr. plot into a slot that a Sr. pilot wants, it IS an abrogation of seniority. The reasoning behind the move is immaterial. I don't know why you have such a difficult time grasping that. I hope the rest of your life does not find you struggling so mightily to grasp such simple concepts.

 

[skypine69]

newman....
yes...you tdy a reserve to that domicile until the most senior person that wants it is trained. that way the domicile still shows an opening and that senior dude can bid into it. if they award it to whoever is trained, then there is no longer an opening to bid into and the senior person may never get to that domicile. is that right? tdy is a cost of doing business.

 

[HelloNewman]

How about you join the rest of us in the real world.
1. When do you see an airline with 2700 pilots stopping training. Unless something awful happens, attrition alone will keep the training department going.

They do not run non stop classes all the time. People talk about many times since 2000 where they have not run classes all the time. Guess what growth runs out eventually and classes will stop eventually. In fact after the midwest growth is done that will be the end of classes for a while. Attrition also does not last forever. Majors will not always be hiring

2. In your scenario, the company is going to first crank up the PBS line credit. Next, they will flow other pilots from other domiciles through the base that is short. Ever see someone from DEN or SLC doing turns in and out of ORD? Once that option no longer works, reserves will be doing those trips. Once there is sufficient demand to run a class, it will happen. No one expects, or receives an individual class. I hope you already knew that. I hope you don't really think your fantasy-land scenario is an issue that would come up at OO.

so your suggesting you make the entire domicile work more credit than they want while you wait for the person to get through training? Isn't that unfair to the senior guys already there who do not want to work long hours? Again you are suggesting to cause a lot of people to go to the trouble of working extra hours for one person. That isn't fair to the other senior people when there is an able bodied transfer ready and able to work without having to screw over the other senior guys in the domicile. The domiciles you speak of are also large domiciles. I am speaking of the really small domiciles that we have. There is enough movement at SLC, ORD, and DEN to always run classes for those bases. If there isn't enough demand for a class then transfers should be allowed and those with their bids in will have to wait til lots of classes are running again. They know the game.

3. If a company places a Jr. plot into a slot that a Sr. pilot wants, it IS an abrogation of seniority. The reasoning behind the move is immaterial. I don't know why you have such a difficult time grasping that. I hope the rest of your life does not find you struggling so mightily to grasp such simple concepts.

Yes I have known all along technically it is a seniority violation but who cares? It is IN THE POLICY MANUAL. It is simply stupid to inconvienence an entire domicile or TDY people while waiting for one person to get there when someone else is already qualified to transfer there right away. People take seniority too literally. I highly doubt the system was meant to allow one person to wreak havoc on other peoples lives. The most senior person available still gets the transfer. What do they do at airlines that are really small and don't have classes running most of the time?

Lets say your at a small airline that has two bases. Classes are on hold indefinately and you are properly staffed. Lets say one person quits leaving one opening at the more senior base. There is one senior pilot with his upgrade bid in since he doesn't want to commute. There are three other pilots that commute and have their transfer in. What do you expect the company to do run one class for the person? Run short handed Part of seniority is knowing sometimes if you want to be captain you have to suck it up in the junior base for a while before you can transfer back. An airline certainly isn't expected to run one class for one person. The logical and proper thing to do is award the transfer. If you want to wait til they are running classes then that is your choice. It is personal choice to wait it out not a big bad slap in the seniority systems face.

 

[HelloNewman]

newman....
yes...you tdy a reserve to that domicile until the most senior person that wants it is trained. that way the domicile still shows an opening and that senior dude can bid into it. if they award it to whoever is trained, then there is no longer an opening to bid into and the senior person may never get to that domicile. is that right? tdy is a cost of doing business.

So you are saying they should run a class for one person if they are not running classes for a while? Sometimes they are only running emb classes, sometimes only RJ classes. Eventually the growth will stop and classes won't be run every 3 weeks like they are now. If a senior person wants the base then he is going to have to upgrade and take the transfer when he can hold it or risk being an FO forever. It is silly to eat the costs of TDY when an ableboied person is ready 2 transfer

 

[rtmcfi]

I will try to keep this short.

Attrition also does not last forever. Majors will not always be hiring

Your whole fairy-tale is based on attrition. Without attrition, your imaginary spot in PSP never opened up. Thus, no open spot, no training requirement, and this thread is about 2 pages shorter. Attrition is not due only to people moving on. People eventually move out of their parents home, get old, then die. This would also be known as attrition. This would create a training cycle.

so your suggesting you make the entire domicile work more credit than they want while you wait for the person to get through training? Isn't that unfair to the senior guys already there who do not want to work long hours? Again you are suggesting to cause a lot of people to go to the trouble of working extra hours for one person.

I'm not suggesting it, it already happens. It is one of the biggest reasons that companies push so hard for PBS. What did your non-legally recognised bargaining agent get for you in return?

There is enough movement at SLC, ORD, and DEN to always run classes for those bases

Guess what growth runs out eventually and classes will stop eventually

So which is it? Since when do airlines run special classes for specific domeciles? Think back to when you were hired. Was your class just for ORD FOs? Is all of life this difficult for you to understand? Are you sure you are a pilot? You fail to grasp even the most basic things about how an airline works.

Yes I have known all along technically it is a seniority violation

Why do you keep insisting otherwise?

but who cares?

Pretty much anyone involved in a seniority system.
Pretty much everyone that is a pilot.

I think this horse is thoroughly been flogged.........

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Quote Newman-The safest way to keep our contracts is to wait and see what other airlines get first then match pretty close to what they get.

And let them pay the 2% and spend years negotiating something good so we can spend a few more years "catching up" by riding the the coat tails of their work.

Newman - I seriously doubt you've done any military time. You're probably the guy who would hide in the foxhole {that's a ditch you dig to stay away from the bullits}, and come out cheering "We Won!" after the battle.

Do you also let someone else get your "significant other" worked up for you?

 

[Ski Bum]

Well said! I hate to say it, but Newman's attitude is quite prevalent at SKYW. Lots of people are content to let other UNION airlines raise the bar and then follow it up. Pretty selfish.

As for the other arguments about show me a list of people who got fired... Who needs a list? If 1 pilot (DD) out of our 2600 was fired without just cause then that is enough. What if that one pilot were you?

 

[HelloNewman]

They only run classes for domiciles that have openings, duh. If there is only one opening and no classes going then they are not going to hold a class they will run a transfer. If there is an able bodied pilot ready to go now why wait while this person is in class? Remember some months attrition here is high other months its not. Eventually classes do stop and an opening in PSP for CAs only comes once in a blue moon. Sometimes when a small domicile has had an opening they have not been running classes. That is life. They also shouldnt have to run short handed just to wait for some senior dude to get there. He will just have to upgrade and transfer when his seniority can hold it.

I'm not suggesting it, it already happens. It is one of the biggest reasons that companies push so hard for PBS. What did your non-legally recognised bargaining agent get for you in return?

More days off, more flexibility, better schedule, better QOL, need I say more? Hands down my schedule is better than it would have been under the hard line system. I don't have to screw my whole month up to get one day off that I happen to need. I don't have to choose one type of trip for the entire month. What else do you want in return? If ALPA was here I am sure they would be asking for some unreasonable thing.

Well said! I hate to say it, but Newman's attitude is quite prevalent at SKYW. Lots of people are content to let other UNION airlines raise the bar and then follow it up. Pretty selfish.

As for the other arguments about show me a list of people who got fired... Who needs a list? If 1 pilot (DD) out of our 2600 was fired without just cause then that is enough. What if that one pilot were you?

It is not selfish it is simply good buisness practice. The union guys make the choice to use their union dues to try to get better contracts. Not our faults for riding on the coat tails since it is still a free market. If that one pilot were me I would do exactly what DD did. I would get a good lawyer and make millions and laugh my way to the bank. He will end up making out like a bandit. If we had a union he would simply get his job back and go back to paying dues.

 

[Ski Bum]

Why don't you get off the computer right now and call DD and ask him if he would rather have the settlment he will get from SKYW, or his job back and had never to go through this whole experience? I already know his answer, but I guess since he won't have to pay union dues he will be okay.

 

[rtmcfi]

Clueless, as well as hopeless. Welcome to my ignore list. It is short, and gets very little use. Sound familiar??? I have grown weary of correcting your numerous inaccuracies. Have fun at your next sim.

 

[Ski Bum]

More days off, more flexibility, better schedule, better QOL, need I say more? Hands down my schedule is better than it would have been under the hard line system.

Nope you aren't selfish. Ask some junior guys how they like their schedules.

The idea behind a union is to bring EVERYONE up. Not leave out 25% of the pilot group from a pay package, or sacrifice junior schedules to PBS so that top guys can get dream schedules.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

More days off, more flexibility, better schedule, better QOL, need I say more? Hands down my schedule is better than it would have been under the hard line system.

Nope you aren't selfish. Ask some junior guys how they like their schedules.

The idea behind a union is to bring EVERYONE up. Not leave out 25% of the pilot group from a pay package, or sacrifice junior schedules to PBS so that top guys can get dream schedules.

It's not just the junior skeds that are being sacrificed...I'm in one of those small senior domiciles that Newwoman keeps flapping his gums about and I've had at least 1 and usually 2 or 3 forced pairings on my bid every month since we went with PBS. Not to mention, our existing pairings would be a lot better if they didn't keep having crews from other domiciles(junior to us) not only doing some of our flying but costing the company money in additional unnecessary hotel costs!!!

 

[goodpilotithink]

Simple question....
Why would you not want a contract? It spells out everything in black and white.
Do you not think the company execs fighting ALPA at Skywest have signed contracts?
Sure they do. But whats good for them is seen as something you don't need.
You think they would agree if the BOD said "TRUST US", We will take care of you, we don't need a formal contract?

 

[Bako Cap]

3. Again you speak from paranoia not facts. Has anyone at SkyWest ever been unfairly bumped ahead in seniority? The only seniority bumps that happen are those who have been SkyWest employees before. They goto the head of the class in seniority but still have the same DOH as everyone else. It has not happened yet. The airline has been pretty good about honoring the seniority system. Some people will speak of the bucket system. That system is simply the most efficent way to use reserves. Why use 3 reserves to cover one 4 day trip when you can use one reserve in the 4 day bucket to cover the entire trip. Seniority is still honored within the bucket. This is how reserve should have been all along. 1 day bucket does locals, 2 day bucket does 2 days etc. etc. This is a reasonable efficent way to do reserve..

I just answered that you were wrong about unfair bumping out of seniority.

Now my honest answer.
When I mentioned that out of seniority happened in FAT, at the time, FAT was a growing base and SkyWest had firm orders for dozens of CRJs (several a month). Not the small stagnent CRJ base that it is today. VERY POOR planning by SGU cost many senior pilots to lose out on the pay difference between the E120 and the CRJ. One pilot who was senior to me spent over 6 months getting bypassed by pilots whom on the first day of training for SLC would put in for FAT and be awarded FAT before finishing ground school. I will say that SGU tried to do right by seniority, but would bypass due to a failure and lack of planning on their part.

Your next example of a quick filling of a base vacancy is only valid if the company isn't staffed properly. If a base cannot operate with the loss of one pilot then the base is not staffed properly. Once again poor planning by crew planning. Not an individual pilots falut, and that pilot should not be penalized for SGU's mistakes.

 

[Bako Cap]

The idea behind a union is to bring EVERYONE up. Not leave out 25% of the pilot group from a pay package, or sacrifice junior schedules to PBS so that top guys can get dream schedules.

The idea behind communism also sounds great on paper. But alas, it seems that the rich always get richer and the poorer get poorer. Ask around any airline union and there will be many stories of the senior pilots screwing the junior or newly merged pilots for their own gain. For an example; search for arguments about the change in age 60-65 rules, or the relief of jet scope clauses which brought out the proliferation of the lower paid regional pilots. You will find that the senior pilots always got to the fruit tree first and to the junior be damned. Pilot seniority system nature.

Other than that, I agree your statement sounds like a great reason and goal for a unified group. (no sarcasm)

 

[BigLebowski]

I hate to partake in this post again but there are some things being misrepresented here again.

The issue of "events" happening out of seniority. At my previous employer, which was ALPA there was an event that comes to mind when one base started going senior while the other junior. Some "shifting" around of lines, etc. started taking place and senior pilots at one domicile were bumped to reserve. These pilots put in transfer requests for a junior base and were denied. Meanwhile the company was hiring new pilots and the new guys were going to the junior base and were holding lines out of class...all the while senior guys were not allowed to transfer into this domicile.

When it was brought to ALPA's attention they said they were "looking into it". Nothing ever came of it, those pilots were stuck at that base on reserve until they got lines again.

How could this happen with "union protection?"

 

[BigLebowski]

Here's another scenario...Mesa constantly upgrades out of seniority as well as hires street Captains.

They also discriminate against employees based on their aircraft. Example, the EMB145 base in Dulles goes junior. At Mesa, if you are on an aircraft and you go to upgrade on that aircraft they run an "shortened" upgrade. i.e., 4 days of ground school, and I belive 3 sims. Now if you are on the CRJ or another aircraft and want to upgrade on another aircraft you are constantly bypassed because you won't be able to do the "shortened" training.

How can this possibly happen at a union carrier???