ALPA sues SKYW

[goodpilotithink]

Simple question....
Why would you not want a contract? It spells out everything in black and white.
Do you not think the company execs fighting ALPA at Skywest have signed contracts?
Sure they do. But whats good for them is seen as something you don't need.
You think they would agree if the BOD said "TRUST US", We will take care of you, we don't need a formal contract?

 

[Bako Cap]

3. Again you speak from paranoia not facts. Has anyone at SkyWest ever been unfairly bumped ahead in seniority? The only seniority bumps that happen are those who have been SkyWest employees before. They goto the head of the class in seniority but still have the same DOH as everyone else. It has not happened yet. The airline has been pretty good about honoring the seniority system. Some people will speak of the bucket system. That system is simply the most efficent way to use reserves. Why use 3 reserves to cover one 4 day trip when you can use one reserve in the 4 day bucket to cover the entire trip. Seniority is still honored within the bucket. This is how reserve should have been all along. 1 day bucket does locals, 2 day bucket does 2 days etc. etc. This is a reasonable efficent way to do reserve..

I just answered that you were wrong about unfair bumping out of seniority.

Now my honest answer.
When I mentioned that out of seniority happened in FAT, at the time, FAT was a growing base and SkyWest had firm orders for dozens of CRJs (several a month). Not the small stagnent CRJ base that it is today. VERY POOR planning by SGU cost many senior pilots to lose out on the pay difference between the E120 and the CRJ. One pilot who was senior to me spent over 6 months getting bypassed by pilots whom on the first day of training for SLC would put in for FAT and be awarded FAT before finishing ground school. I will say that SGU tried to do right by seniority, but would bypass due to a failure and lack of planning on their part.

Your next example of a quick filling of a base vacancy is only valid if the company isn't staffed properly. If a base cannot operate with the loss of one pilot then the base is not staffed properly. Once again poor planning by crew planning. Not an individual pilots falut, and that pilot should not be penalized for SGU's mistakes.

 

[Bako Cap]

The idea behind a union is to bring EVERYONE up. Not leave out 25% of the pilot group from a pay package, or sacrifice junior schedules to PBS so that top guys can get dream schedules.

The idea behind communism also sounds great on paper. But alas, it seems that the rich always get richer and the poorer get poorer. Ask around any airline union and there will be many stories of the senior pilots screwing the junior or newly merged pilots for their own gain. For an example; search for arguments about the change in age 60-65 rules, or the relief of jet scope clauses which brought out the proliferation of the lower paid regional pilots. You will find that the senior pilots always got to the fruit tree first and to the junior be damned. Pilot seniority system nature.

Other than that, I agree your statement sounds like a great reason and goal for a unified group. (no sarcasm)

 

[BigLebowski]

I hate to partake in this post again but there are some things being misrepresented here again.

The issue of "events" happening out of seniority. At my previous employer, which was ALPA there was an event that comes to mind when one base started going senior while the other junior. Some "shifting" around of lines, etc. started taking place and senior pilots at one domicile were bumped to reserve. These pilots put in transfer requests for a junior base and were denied. Meanwhile the company was hiring new pilots and the new guys were going to the junior base and were holding lines out of class...all the while senior guys were not allowed to transfer into this domicile.

When it was brought to ALPA's attention they said they were "looking into it". Nothing ever came of it, those pilots were stuck at that base on reserve until they got lines again.

How could this happen with "union protection?"

 

[BigLebowski]

Here's another scenario...Mesa constantly upgrades out of seniority as well as hires street Captains.

They also discriminate against employees based on their aircraft. Example, the EMB145 base in Dulles goes junior. At Mesa, if you are on an aircraft and you go to upgrade on that aircraft they run an "shortened" upgrade. i.e., 4 days of ground school, and I belive 3 sims. Now if you are on the CRJ or another aircraft and want to upgrade on another aircraft you are constantly bypassed because you won't be able to do the "shortened" training.

How can this possibly happen at a union carrier???

 

[Ski Bum]

The short answer is that these things are happening because they are not directly addressed in the contract. I am not overly familiar with MAG contract, but if this issue is addressed then it needs to hammered out in the grievance process.

Union protection only protects what is written in the contract. If a new issue comes up then the union meets with management to come up with a TA that is on point for the new issue.

Bottom line is that whatever your previous experiences were with your pilot's union (teamsters, alpa, independent), your experience with a union here at SKYW is bound to be different. We are a different pilot group, different managment, and we would be new union. We don't know what managements' reaction to a union will be. We don't know what our first contract will be like. We don't know a lot. We do know that with a framework of legal representation it is up to us to become unified and put into a place a strong contract that protects us from the situations we face now and situations we might face in the future.

 

[BigLebowski]

The short answer is that these things are happening because they are not directly addressed in the contract. I am not overly familiar with MAG contract, but if this issue is addressed then it needs to hammered out in the grievance process.

Union protection only protects what is written in the contract. If a new issue comes up then the union meets with management to come up with a TA that is on point for the new issue.

Bottom line is that whatever your previous experiences were with your pilot's union (teamsters, alpa, independent), your experience with a union here at SKYW is bound to be different. We are a different pilot group, different managment, and we would be new union. We don't know what managements' reaction to a union will be. We don't know what our first contract will be like. We don't know a lot. We do know that with a framework of legal representation it is up to us to become unified and put into a place a strong contract that protects us from the situations we face now and situations we might face in the future.

I like how you said that union protection on ly protects what is written in the contract.

ok....well at my former company, the pilots were only allowed to be "madatory junior manned" up to 3 times a year. The company would do this and after three times tell the pilot on the phone that they will do it and to just "file a grievance with the union". So the pilot then would file a grievance. When you called to check up on the status...you would hear: "The MEC is busy addressing other issues right now, we will get back to you as soon as we have an answer". You would never hear back.

Why is this??? It was written in our contract!!! I can pull out more examples if you'd like of "written contracts" that were continually violated by the company and the union did NOTHING!!!.

 

[ArcticFlier]

I like how you said that union protection on ly protects what is written in the contract.

ok....well at my former company, the pilots were only allowed to be "madatory junior manned" up to 3 times a year. The company would do this and after three times tell the pilot on the phone that they will do it and to just "file a grievance with the union". So the pilot then would file a grievance. When you called to check up on the status...you would hear: "The MEC is busy addressing other issues right now, we will get back to you as soon as we have an answer". You would never hear back.

Why is this??? It was written in our contract!!! I can pull out more examples if you'd like of "written contracts" that were continually violated by the company and the union did NOTHING!!!.

Sounds to me like the MEC at your former airline needed to be replaced.........

 

[Ski Bum]

Why is this??? It was written in our contract!!! I can pull out more examples if you'd like of "written contracts" that were continually violated by the company and the union did NOTHING!!!.

That sucks. It sounds like your MEC let you down and it was their job to address your grievances in a timely manner. It was also your job as a member to hold your MEC accountable. Just like union protection can only protect whats in the contract, your contract is only as strong as the pilots/MEC who back it up. You shouldn't have recurring problems with "fly it and grieve it." You should be able to call your LEC / MEC rep who then speaks to the company to set the record straight ahead of time. A good MEC should be proactive instead of reactive and it is the job of every member to vote in a good MEC / LEC.

At my former company, very few issues became problematic because our grievances were handled quickly and fairly. Our MEC did a great job in meeting with the company and resolving problems. If they couldn't be resolved then it would go to arbitration. After that the interpretation of the written contract was clear to both sides.

 

[Obi-Wan]

I hate to partake in this post again but there are some things being misrepresented here again.

The issue of "events" happening out of seniority. At my previous employer, which was ALPA there was an event that comes to mind when one base started going senior while the other junior. Some "shifting" around of lines, etc. started taking place and senior pilots at one domicile were bumped to reserve. These pilots put in transfer requests for a junior base and were denied. Meanwhile the company was hiring new pilots and the new guys were going to the junior base and were holding lines out of class...all the while senior guys were not allowed to transfer into this domicile.

When it was brought to ALPA's attention they said they were "looking into it". Nothing ever came of it, those pilots were stuck at that base on reserve until they got lines again.

How could this happen with "union protection?"

Its called bidding dude. transfers are at company discretion or you can base trade with another pilot. You can bid for the position and after it is awarded you will advance. Its stated in our contract that the company needs to have at least 2 bids per year. Did you ever read your contract during the few months that you spent at that carrier? What did the contract say?

 

[Obi-Wan]

Here's another scenario...Mesa constantly upgrades out of seniority as well as hires street Captains.

They also discriminate against employees based on their aircraft. Example, the EMB145 base in Dulles goes junior. At Mesa, if you are on an aircraft and you go to upgrade on that aircraft they run an "shortened" upgrade. i.e., 4 days of ground school, and I belive 3 sims. Now if you are on the CRJ or another aircraft and want to upgrade on another aircraft you are constantly bypassed because you won't be able to do the "shortened" training.

How can this possibly happen at a union carrier???

What does the contract say?

 

[Obi-Wan]

I like how you said that union protection on ly protects what is written in the contract.

ok....well at my former company, the pilots were only allowed to be "madatory junior manned" up to 3 times a year. The company would do this and after three times tell the pilot on the phone that they will do it and to just "file a grievance with the union". So the pilot then would file a grievance. When you called to check up on the status...you would hear: "The MEC is busy addressing other issues right now, we will get back to you as soon as we have an answer". You would never hear back.

Why is this??? It was written in our contract!!! I can pull out more examples if you'd like of "written contracts" that were continually violated by the company and the union did NOTHING!!!.

This is not true as I have frinds At Mesa that have filed a grievance and got taken care of. Mesa or whatever airline its your job to follow up on your grievance. It takes some time.

 

[Brazilgun]

Okay I've come up with 3 off the top of my head...

1. A written contract that would be binding on a successor
2. Only be subject to discipline for "just cause" - With an appeal path all the way to the Supreme Court.
3. Right to force the company to negotiate with you in "good faith" or face self-help.

You mentioned Com Air, Mesa, and ASA

Mesa - work rules/pay sucks, but they ended up utilizing a LOT of negotiating capital getting a solid scope and all of the MAG pilot-groups under one contract. They will have much more leverage the next time. Pilots only bitch about pay rates/work rules, but there is a reason Scope is Section 1 of every ALPA pilot contract.

ASA - what about them? The way I see it, it is your beloved management that is putting the screws to this pilot group. If your management had it their way, there would be no ASA pilot group...their contract-and the fact they were unionized is the only thing that is keeping your management from ramming your payrates/workrules down their throats.

ComAir - There company went bankrupt, it had nothing to do with ALPA. They spent the last few years with an industry (regional industry) leading contract.

Let me ask you this...

If the Skywest pilots were themselves on the receiving end...

What would stop management from suddenly cutting your pay rates say...UAL cancelled your code-share?

Say Skywest had to furlough, what would stop your management from furloughing for convinience instead of seniority? Let's see, that Midwest deal didn't work out...let's close the Milwaukee base - all Milwaukee pilots are furloughed regardless of seniority. Do you think the rest of your non-furloughed pilots would put up a fight?

If Skywest were bought by another carrier - say Mesa, what would stop Mesa from dissolving your pilot group and giving you a "take it or leave it" proposition. Maybe you will be lucky and they will give you a preferential interview. I'll give you a hint, the answer is a 7 letter word that starts with n and ends in g n_ _ _ _ _ g!

Funny...
Binding contract???
We saw what happened at Delta, United, Northwest, etc... When things hit the fan, where was ALPA to stand up for their contract they had signed years prior? People have the notion that once you signed your contract, everything will follow 100%. We all know that's not the case, so don't give me that lame excuse.

You also sound like ASA was the place to be prior to SKYW buying them. People hated there when was owned by Delta. Though I don't agree with things that SKYW management are doing to them now, I just don't see how ALPA is the answer.

Your argument has no basis about UNITED and Skywest losing their flight. If , and there is a big if, were to happen, I guarantee you if management wanted to impose a pay cut, it would happen. ALPA or not. We all saw what happened to MESABA. It is just bull to believe that ALPA will fight for you and will stand up for everything that is on the contract.

Skywest management, even though far from perfect, has always tried to do an OK job running this airline. Now they are portraited to be the devil in person, and without ALPA we will all get F***** in the butt.

How come ALPA doesn't report where the money goes? What happened to my 2% I had taken away from my family and given to ALPA? Where did it go?
What do they do with it?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I like how you said that union protection on ly protects what is written in the contract.

ok....well at my former company, the pilots were only allowed to be "madatory junior manned" up to 3 times a year. The company would do this and after three times tell the pilot on the phone that they will do it and to just "file a grievance with the union". So the pilot then would file a grievance. When you called to check up on the status...you would hear: "The MEC is busy addressing other issues right now, we will get back to you as soon as we have an answer". You would never hear back.

Why is this??? It was written in our contract!!! I can pull out more examples if you'd like of "written contracts" that were continually violated by the company and the union did NOTHING!!!.

Sounds like someone who did not go to any local meeting, or work on any comittees. POS who instead of standing tall and working towards a better future for his co-workers, said fukkit, I am going to SKYW for the quick upgrade. Guess what? You are gonna be swinging the gear for a former ASA F/O, and guess what I hope it happens that way, because they paid their dues the hard way, you took the easy way, leaving your co-workers hanging, because you are too greedy for the fast upgrade.
PUTO
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Do you also let someone else get your "significant other" worked up for you?

In the porn industry that person is called a fluffer, newwomans boyfriend prefers the fluffer to newwomans two popsicle sticks withh a rubber band to hold it all hard enough for fudge packing.
PBR
somthin' 'bout splinters, I guess