ALPA is dead!

[FNG_that's me]

The Army corp of Engineers didn't really need the money it's much better to spend it in Iraq so I can have $3.00 a gallon gas.

The USACE told the state that they would not hold over a cat 3, but that was ignored. Plenty of blame to go around.

Gas is 2.62, and that's out in SOCAL.

 

[Flyboi]

But for all its warts, for all its blemishes, for all the mistakes that have been made in the past, there is not another organization (ALPA)that better equips pilots to work together to ensure a safe, secure future in professional aviation. If you know of a better way to skin the cat, I'm all ears.

Was gonna respond, but I choked on my own vomit . . .


back to lurking

 

[semperfido]

Remember, only 4% of Americans are athiest and want God taken out of the pledge or off the dollar bill, but you hear about it all the time on the TV. A few anti-union pilots(or perhaps plants from management to seed your beliefs) disheartened about true misfortunes in their career should not sway you from the basic belief that we must be represented. Don't like the representation?

yeah- lets tie religion into this alpa discussion

and
let's label people anti-union for having a different viewpoint

 

[AA717driver]

If the best you guys can do is pretend that guys working for profitable carriers are only there because of dumb luck and that we need to be groveling each day to show our appreciation to the gods of chance, then we don't have much to discuss. It didn't take a 9/11 for some of us to see that express cargo provides a much more stable business than passengers. Rather than credit us with a wise choice, you feel better by crediting us with dumb luck. You had the chance, but you chose the early morning wake-ups and dragging your bags through terminals. We didn't. Get over it. It has nothing to do with ALPA.
.

We Have A Winner!!!!

Tony C. took the bait. "It's YOUR fault because YOU chose the WRONG airline!" Thank you for following in the footsteps of such luminaries as UAL, AA, USAir and Delta people after the AA/TWA integration. "You should have chosen a different airline."

Now, only FedEX remains atop the smouldering heap of what used to be a good career and you are telling the UAL, AA, USAir and Delta people that they should have chosen a better airline.

One of the problems is that before the Legacy carriers took their hit, there were a bunch of people willing to bust their butts at AirTran, JB and SWA to beat them. Now, there are a whole lot of people who are willing to bust their butts to make their carrier go. You at FEX and UPS are currently insulated from attack by a startup. You'd better hope it stays that way.

As for HAL and Aloha. Yes, ALPA's lawyers may be preventing you from working for a Mesa-like contract but you can negotiate the pay rates you have without a union--look at AirTran's pay scales.

Good luck to all.TC

 

[FNG_that's me]

We Have A Winner!!!!

Tony C. took the bait. "It's YOUR fault because YOU chose the WRONG airline!" Thank you for following in the footsteps of such luminaries as UAL, AA, USAir and Delta people after the AA/TWA integration. "You should have chosen a different airline."

Now, only FedEX remains atop the smouldering heap of what used to be a good career and you are telling the UAL, AA, USAir and Delta people that they should have chosen a better airline.

One of the problems is that before the Legacy carriers took their hit, there were a bunch of people willing to bust their butts at AirTran, JB and SWA to beat them. Now, there are a whole lot of people who are willing to bust their butts to make their carrier go. You at FEX and UPS are currently insulated from attack by a startup. You'd better hope it stays that way.

As for HAL and Aloha. Yes, ALPA's lawyers may be preventing you from working for a Mesa-like contract but you can negotiate the pay rates you have without a union--look at AirTran's pay scales.

Good luck to all.TC

Let's try to agree that at every successful carrier(fedex, southwest and friends for now) there are three types of people(at least).

1. Those who took the first job offered to them(probably the largest group)
2. Those who used foresight to pick where they wanted to work.
3. And those who couldn't get on with anybody else at time. i.e. Pan Am wouldn't take me, so I had to go to insert legacy/cargo carrier here.

In fact, in life there are only three types of people...those who can count and those who can't.

Anybody else notice that AA717driver signs his posts 'TC' and he is butting heads with a TonyC...same guy I think. (no, not really)

 

[Redmeat]

It didn't take a 9/11 for some of us to see that express cargo provides a much more stable business than passengers. Rather than credit us with a wise choice, you feel better by crediting us with dumb luck. You had the chance, but you chose the early morning wake-ups and dragging your bags through terminals. We didn't. Get over it. It has nothing to do with ALPA.




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Hey TonyC.

You sound like a young guy.

Before you go tooting your horn about the great choices you've made throughout your illustrious aviation career, keep in mind that there are plenty of older guys getting screwed right now that "chose" their airline when Federal Express had 14 Falcon 20's and a handful of 727's, and was considered a second-tier flying job.

They probably wish they possessed your incredible foresight.

So simmer down there sparky.

 

[Flyboi]

So I guess to wrap up this thread . . . ALPA sux and Tonyc is a tool.

The End

 

[414Flyer]

Hey TonyC.

You sound like a young guy.

Before you go tooting your horn about the great choices you've made throughout your illustrious aviation career, keep in mind that there are plenty of older guys getting screwed right now that "chose" their airline when Federal Express had 14 Falcon 20's and a handful of 727's, and was considered a second-tier flying job.

Met a guy once who was one of the original pilots at FedEx....He left after a year or so, thought the company was not going anywhere. He sure regretted that decision

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well this thread didn't take long to get dirty....

I'd ask the anti ALPA posters on this thread to speak to the issue of what exactly ALPA should be doing in this current environment... But really, do we want to go thru the trash talking and ancedontal blah blah again and again. More chest beating, unrealistic and idealistic solutions that don't account for cause and effect, multi faceted issues and real problem solving...

It is not that ALPA doesn't have real issues.. It does, but there aren't too many posters on this board that could identify them. Ever see Mississippi Burning? When the poor uneducated blacks are rioting and burning their own village. Yeah, that's you guys. Too ignorant to even know how the system works, let alone start a movement to envoke change. So angry you're ready to fight the very organization that represents you. (and too ignorant to know how to fight the very organization...that's the beauty of it)

Now that the angry mob has declared ALPA useless and you feel better about yourselves, what has changed?

We all certianly have a level of expectation. And when that expectation isn't meet then it has to be someones fault. Anyones fault, just so long as you don't have to look in the mirror....

Back to the orginal poster. I agree..ALPA is ineffective... One thing we can do is wait for the good times... then all you whiney, good for nothing, sport b1itchers will find something else cry about. The reason ALPA is so ineffective is its membership. The attitudes on this board are one reason. Other reasons, pilots think ALPA is a service and a silver bullit. One shot fixes everything.

Unions provide the resources and tools, but you get to do the work.... The problem is you guys don't even know how to use the tools. Combined with your one shot silver bullit, misguided understandings and unrealistic expectations of the organization, you'll never be happy with ALPA/unions.


See you guys next week on the next ALPA/union bashing thread....

[we now return you to your regularly scheduled ALPA hate mongering thread]

 

[TonyC]

We Have A Winner!!!!

Tony C. took the bait. "It's YOUR fault because YOU chose the WRONG airline!" Thank you for following in the footsteps of such luminaries as UAL, AA, USAir and Delta people after the AA/TWA integration. "You should have chosen a different airline."

Now, only FedEX remains atop the smouldering heap of what used to be a good career and you are telling the UAL, AA, USAir and Delta people that they should have chosen a better airline.

Yeah, those are the words you'd like to put in my mouth because you have a slam prepared - - you tried to put those words in our mouths in your last post. I said nothing of the sort. I have only responded to the insinuations and outright accusations that the only reason we might be happy with ALPA is that we were too stupid to find a real job and instead stumbled into this gig by some cosmic freak accident. It offers no substance to the discussion, and it is ludicrous. You can't offer any solutions, so you hurl insults at those who are faring well during the storm. They call that disingenuous.

I don't care which airline you chose. My family's welfare profits not nor suffers a whit by the choices you've made. I made my choice, and I'm living with it. Whether I chose as you, or you as I, has zero bearing on the discussion at hand. You want to talk about ALPA? Fine. Then let's talk about ALPA. Stop wasting bandwidth trying to insinuate we're only happy with ALPA because we were too stupid to have your job.




.

 

[TonyC]

Hey TonyC.

You sound like a young guy.

Before you go tooting your horn about the great choices you've made throughout your illustrious aviation career, keep in mind that there are plenty of older guys getting screwed right now that "chose" their airline when Federal Express had 14 Falcon 20's and a handful of 727's, and was considered a second-tier flying job.

They probably wish they possessed your incredible foresight.

So simmer down there sparky.

I'm not sure if I should take that as an insult or a compliment. I'll opt for the latter for now.

I knew about Federal Express back then because it was growing in my own hometown. If I had possessed incredible foresight, I would have joined the TN ANG instead of the Air Force, and I would be a widebody Capt with 20 years under my belt. Instead, I scoffed at the idea of flying purple airplanes in favor of an Air Force career followed by a "real" airline. It wasn't until several years later that I realized what opportunities had been right under my nose.

I'm not bragging about my choices, and I'm not criticizing anybody else's choices. What I'm doing is raising the BS flag to all of this nonsense that the only reason I support ALPA is that I was lucky enough to stumble into the right company at the right time. While I do consider myself lucky to have gotten an offer from my first choice, and I do consider myself lucky to be working for a very profitable company, I don't think either of those facts has any bearing on the discussion at hand. ALPA did not make FedEx profitable, and ALPA will not make FedEx unprofitable. ALPA WILL make it possible for the very best qualified individuals to bargain on my behalf to obtain my fair share of those profits.

As airline pilots we all owe ALPA for years and years of work on our behalf. The rules that govern us today, the compensation we receive, the hours and schedules that we work, the structure of safety that we enjoy... the list goes on and on ... these things that so many of us take for granted would NOT BE THIS WAY were it not for the tireless work of men and women that worked for the profession under the auspices of ALPA.

It's easy to be a coward and sit back and criticize everything you don't like. Who will be a man and stand up with an idea to make things better?

Anyone?




.

 

[TonyC]

So I guess to wrap up this thread . . . ALPA sux and Tonyc is a tool.

The End

How thoughtful and profound!





(UnAnswerd lives!)



.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

As for HAL and Aloha. Yes, ALPA's lawyers may be preventing you from working for a Mesa-like contract but you can negotiate the pay rates you have without a union--look at AirTran's pay scales.

TC,

Airtran's pilots are represented by an in-house union called the National Pilot's Association (NPA). Their current agreement is the result of that union's hard work and efforts.

-Neal

 

[Phony Marconi]

My image of ALPA is that of a bunch of fraternity boys piling into a pickup truck to see a football game, high-fiving each other because they belong to a group.

Meanwhile, Woerth is taking 'em to the cleaners.

Stupid testosterone-gone-awry.

Stupid.

Wake up!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My image of ALPA is that of a bunch of fraternity boys piling into a pickup truck to see a football game, high-fiving each other because they belong to a group.

Meanwhile, Woerth is taking 'em to the cleaners.

Stupid testosterone-gone-awry.

Stupid.

Wake up!

More cockpit and crewroom reflections.... Did you come up with that all by yourself or did you just remember it from the crew lounge cause some jackass said it and got a chuckle out of the rest of 'em?

Look in the mirror.

Before you respond, can you articulate your post in a way that addresses the issues so we can discuss and debate? (Undergraduate would be nice, post graduate would be great)

 

[Redmeat]

You missed the sarcasm

I'm not sure if I should take that as an insult or a compliment. I'll opt for the latter for now.




.

My comments were neither meant to be compliments nor insults.

My point was that the 50 somethings who are battling for their pensions now in the Legacy World would have been looked upon as being insane to have chosen Federal express over UAL, Delta, NW, etc. in the late 70's-early 80's. It would have been grounds for a psych eval.

Remember Pan Am was once the airline to shoot for, they had the best work rules, best pay, best routes, you name it, they had it. Does anyone remember Pan Am?

Hopefully 25 years from now you won't face the prospect of your expected 6 figure + pension being reduced to 28,000.

Good Luck.

 

[TonyC]

My comments were neither meant to be compliments nor insults.

I was referring to your comment about my youthfulness.

My point was that the 50 somethings who are battling for their pensions now in the Legacy World would have been looked upon as being insane to have chosen Federal express over UAL, Delta, NW, etc. in the late 70's-early 80's. It would have been grounds for a psych eval.

And my point is that neither of our choices of airline has any bearing on the discussion at hand. It is folly to dismiss any supporters of ALPA because they were just dumb lucky to be at a profitable carrier, and it would be folly for me to dismiss criticism of ALPA simply because it comes from someone who made a stupid choice. (I'm not saying anybody made a stupid choice - - I'm saying it would be folly if I were to make such an accusation.)




.

 

[Redmeat]

I was referring to your comment about my youthfulness.

And my point is that neither of our choices of airline has any bearing on the discussion at hand. It is folly to dismiss any supporters of ALPA because they were just dumb lucky to be at a profitable carrier, and it would be folly for me to dismiss criticism of ALPA simply because it comes from someone who made a stupid choice. (I'm not saying anybody made a stupid choice - - I'm saying it would be folly if I were to make such an accusation.)




.

Just to be perfectly clear,

I was not bashing ALPA.

My posts were directed toward your post that I (and many) interpreted to be an insinuation that somehow if some pilots would have made a better choice in airline they could have avoided their current problems.

You seem to be changing your tune a little.

If the best you guys can do is pretend that guys working for profitable carriers are only there because of dumb luck and that we need to be groveling each day to show our appreciation to the gods of chance, then we don't have much to discuss. It didn't take a 9/11 for some of us to see that express cargo provides a much more stable business than passengers. Rather than credit us with a wise choice, you feel better by crediting us with dumb luck. You had the chance, but you chose the early morning wake-ups and dragging your bags through terminals. We didn't. Get over it.

 

[TonyC]

My posts were directed toward your post that I (and many) interpreted to be an insinuation that somehow if some pilots would have made a better choice in airline they could have avoided their current problems.

You seem to be changing your tune a little.

My tune hasn't changed, but perhaps I failed to make my point clear initially. It was never my intention to demean anyone's opinion by virtue of their choice of employment. I only tried to say how silly it was for others to demean or dismiss my opinion because of my choice of employment. I apologize if I offended anyone by failing to make that clear.

I do not rejoice in the troubles of others. I am deeply troubled by the forces astir in our industry today. I am concerned not only about the future of my children's, but about that of other extended family members whose future will be affected by, for example, the failure or success of Delta. But I do not think the solution to the problems in Atlanta is to throw out ALPA and start over. ALPA did not manage Delta to where it is now, and it will not manage Delta to where it will be next year or the year after. ALPA will continue to advocate for the pilots, and for that I am grateful. I can't think of a better way to do it, but I'm always open to suggestions.

So, if there's any way that this thread can be turned into a constructive discussion where Real Men of Genius share ideas that will profit the profession and the industry, I'm all for that! Let's leave our company IDs in our pockets and try to offer something intelligent, shall we?





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