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ALPA is dead!
- Thread starter tailhookah
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AAflyer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,493
Actually I thought JetBlue was lobbying. They were lobbying washington NOT to change pension legislation. They feel since they do not offer one that it is anticompetitive to allow companies more time to play catch up on underfunded pensions. Is it managements fault that these are underfunded, YES! But who is paying the price. The EMPLOYEES, and not just at the airlines, take a look at Delphi.
So a question to the pilots of the LCCs that have companies lobbying against pension reform. Why do YOU want hard earned pensions taken away from your brothers and sisters?
AAflyer
Not real happy with ALPA or APA, however the deals that have been signed and agreed too in the past few years have been VOTED in by the MAJORITY of the membership and note ALPA alone. What is needed is a change in leadership not a change of union.
So a question to the pilots of the LCCs that have companies lobbying against pension reform. Why do YOU want hard earned pensions taken away from your brothers and sisters?
AAflyer
Not real happy with ALPA or APA, however the deals that have been signed and agreed too in the past few years have been VOTED in by the MAJORITY of the membership and note ALPA alone. What is needed is a change in leadership not a change of union.
jbucpt
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2002
- Posts
- 109
TonyC:
Even you must admit that in the grand scheme, ALPA has been a miserable failure.
I think you should be on your knees every damn night praying to whomever you pray with thanks that the company you work for isn't in the passenger carrying business. And I hope for your sake some guy doesn't decide to make a go at it with a lower cost shipping business because at that point, you will see the same pressure on you that the rest of us have had to endure.
You may have a strong MEC and a strong company now, but so did the PanAm, TWA, U, UAL, DAL, and NWA guys at one time.
A350
Even you must admit that in the grand scheme, ALPA has been a miserable failure.
I think you should be on your knees every damn night praying to whomever you pray with thanks that the company you work for isn't in the passenger carrying business. And I hope for your sake some guy doesn't decide to make a go at it with a lower cost shipping business because at that point, you will see the same pressure on you that the rest of us have had to endure.
You may have a strong MEC and a strong company now, but so did the PanAm, TWA, U, UAL, DAL, and NWA guys at one time.
A350
klhoard
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2003
- Posts
- 766
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Once again I will ask this question "What actions could ALPA have taken to keep the pax carriers out of bankruptcy?"
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I hear several guys beeatching about ALPA not doing anything; but they never, EVER pipe up about what ALPA could have done!!
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Please guys, give me an example of one action ALPA could have taken to save your company or career. Just one. . . .
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Once again I will ask this question "What actions could ALPA have taken to keep the pax carriers out of bankruptcy?"
.
.
.
I hear several guys beeatching about ALPA not doing anything; but they never, EVER pipe up about what ALPA could have done!!
.
.
.
Please guys, give me an example of one action ALPA could have taken to save your company or career. Just one. . . .
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TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 3,050
You guys seem to think that ALPA runs airlines. Wake up! ALPA is not responsible for the demise of any airline, any more than UAW is responsible for the demise of the Edsel.A350 said:
If the best you guys can do is pretend that guys working for profitable carriers are only there because of dumb luck and that we need to be groveling each day to show our appreciation to the gods of chance, then we don't have much to discuss. It didn't take a 9/11 for some of us to see that express cargo provides a much more stable business than passengers. Rather than credit us with a wise choice, you feel better by crediting us with dumb luck. You had the chance, but you chose the early morning wake-ups and dragging your bags through terminals. We didn't. Get over it. It has nothing to do with ALPA.
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sandman2122
who's light?
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2004
- Posts
- 596
FoxHunter
Well-known member
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- Jan 4, 2002
- Posts
- 679
klhoard said:
We could start with the summer of 2000 chaos at UAL. We could go back a bit further to the UAL strike of 85' that led to the "We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has".....famous ALPA quote and mentality....
DashTrash400
It's a dog's life
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- 449
jbucpt
Well-known member
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- 109
TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2002
- Posts
- 3,050
I'm reminded of the old Nutter Butter advertisements.jbucpt said:
Have another Nutter Butter peanut butter sandwich cookie.
How can I have another Nutter Butter peanut butter sandwich cookie, when I haven't had ANY yet?
You can't continue until you begin, and you haven't begun to explain how ALPA runs airlines.
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semperfido
Keep Humpin
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- 1,873
semperfido
Keep Humpin
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after the "airline Dereguation Act of 1978" the major airlines failed to adapt in a timely way to the new environment. in part, because of alpa's rigid contracts, which took too long to change. carriers like SWA and the Regionals jumped in and blossomed. alpa played a part in many a major airlines decline, like it or not.
I am guessing this is what he was refering to:
UNITED -- FROM "PROUD OWNERS" TO "POOR OWNERS"
As wrenching as the restructuring at US Airways has been for workers there, the situation at United Airlines has repercussions far greater for the national economy, the airline industry and airline unions as a whole by virtue of its sheer size and its history as one of the world's largest unionized carrier. United is currently the second largest airline in the world with $22 billion dollars worth of assets with a workforce that is 85% unionized.
From the workers' perspective, the root of United's problems with labor stem from the 1994-2000 contracts with its pilots and machinists.
ALPA and the IAM agreed to a $4.5 billion concessionary pact in exchange for the Employee Stock Ownership Plan (ESOP), a majority stake in the airline, and a seat United's board of directors. While pilots overwhelmingly ratified the agreement, machinists narrowly ratified the agreement. The AFA refused to participate-the only work group at United to do so.
During contract negotiations early in 1994, United's then-CEO Stephen Wolf sold off the company's profitable flight kitchens. Close to 5,000 workers lost their jobs. Wolf threatened to sell the company off piece by piece unless workers agreed to concessions.
The unions had successfully organized work slowdowns during negotiations to pressure the company back. However, the ESOP was ALPA's idea, and one that the IAM came to champion as well. The unions believed that employees owning stock and the unions having a seat on the board of directors would usher in an era of cooperation and labor peace with management. For the company it insured massive concessions from labor, huge tax breaks and kept corporate raiders at bay.
Two things happened that underscored the fallacy of the ESOP: United Airlines made $8 billion in net profit during the economic boom of the late 90s while employees struggled to survive under concessions and the economic bubble burst. For the major airlines the problems stemmed not from Enron-like fake profit reports, but from over-capacity and competition from small carriers like Southwest. Under the rules of the ESOP, employees could not sell their stock unless they separated from the company. The stock functioned as a de facto retirement fund and since the company was making record profits, employees could not diversify their investments in United's 401K program. During the ESOP negotiations United's stock was trading at well over $100 per share. In bankruptcy the stock employees now "own" has become essentially worthless.
http://www.labornotes.org/archives/2003/03/a.html
UNITED -- FROM "PROUD OWNERS" TO "POOR OWNERS"
As wrenching as the restructuring at US Airways has been for workers there, the situation at United Airlines has repercussions far greater for the national economy, the airline industry and airline unions as a whole by virtue of its sheer size and its history as one of the world's largest unionized carrier. United is currently the second largest airline in the world with $22 billion dollars worth of assets with a workforce that is 85% unionized.
From the workers' perspective, the root of United's problems with labor stem from the 1994-2000 contracts with its pilots and machinists.
ALPA and the IAM agreed to a $4.5 billion concessionary pact in exchange for the Employee Stock Ownership Plan (ESOP), a majority stake in the airline, and a seat United's board of directors. While pilots overwhelmingly ratified the agreement, machinists narrowly ratified the agreement. The AFA refused to participate-the only work group at United to do so.
During contract negotiations early in 1994, United's then-CEO Stephen Wolf sold off the company's profitable flight kitchens. Close to 5,000 workers lost their jobs. Wolf threatened to sell the company off piece by piece unless workers agreed to concessions.
The unions had successfully organized work slowdowns during negotiations to pressure the company back. However, the ESOP was ALPA's idea, and one that the IAM came to champion as well. The unions believed that employees owning stock and the unions having a seat on the board of directors would usher in an era of cooperation and labor peace with management. For the company it insured massive concessions from labor, huge tax breaks and kept corporate raiders at bay.
Two things happened that underscored the fallacy of the ESOP: United Airlines made $8 billion in net profit during the economic boom of the late 90s while employees struggled to survive under concessions and the economic bubble burst. For the major airlines the problems stemmed not from Enron-like fake profit reports, but from over-capacity and competition from small carriers like Southwest. Under the rules of the ESOP, employees could not sell their stock unless they separated from the company. The stock functioned as a de facto retirement fund and since the company was making record profits, employees could not diversify their investments in United's 401K program. During the ESOP negotiations United's stock was trading at well over $100 per share. In bankruptcy the stock employees now "own" has become essentially worthless.
http://www.labornotes.org/archives/2003/03/a.html
FNG_that's me
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2004
- Posts
- 194
1. ALPA can not control the vast market forces that control all businesses. Think about how silly the arguement for 3-person cockpits sounds now. Well, we once were making that arguement to 'preserve jobs.' In fact I think that's why American split with ALPA(chime it if you know for sure) There is only so much one can demand when the writing is on the wall. Lots of pilots are taking jobs without pensions, that becomes the industry standard for all who wish their company to remain competative.
2. While I personally believe that airline management used 9/11 as an excuse to re-structure labor (read: crush labor), there is also an epidemic of enormous proportion in the area of pension stealing that is not isolated to the airline industry. I'm not a big fan of Time, but they have an article recently about the subject which is a must read for anyone who has a pension.
3. WE are the strenght of ALPA, or whatever organization represents your pilot group. STRENGTH in UNITY is self fufilling. If the organization splinters away, so does its bargaining power. While things aren't perfect, or even great for many right now--how would you be treated if you had to represent yourself without any organized labor? We would all be out of jobs, and I don't think that is an overstatement. At minimum, the jobs we have would not be worth the pay and workrules that would be implemented. I can guarantee you that the cost of dues pays for itself whether times are good or bad. I do realize that this is a tough pill to swallow, especially for the furloughed folks, but it is true.
Don't let the vocal minority make you feel defeated. Remember, only 4% of Americans are athiest and want God taken out of the pledge or off the dollar bill, but you hear about it all the time on the TV. A few anti-union pilots(or perhaps plants from management to seed your beliefs) disheartened about true misfortunes in their career should not sway you from the basic belief that we must be represented. Don't like the representation? VOTE!! or run for office yourself. There are a lot of people who would benefit from the demise of ALPA...the pilots they represent are not among that group. Please, no comments claiming that I'm comparing God and ALPA or whomever...it's all about the vocal minority.
Food for thought--What is great about this job can also be a detriment. There is a lot of variety in the workplace...Don't like certain layovers, well somebody lives there and they want them. Don't like flying the red-eyes, some folks eat them up. It makes it a little easier to get what you want because not everybody wants what you want. Well, this is a killer when it comes to negotiations: Some want more money, others more time off, others focus on retirement. No CBA will make everyone happy about every issue. Please remember this when you are faced with something that isn't as tasty as you'd like...it's all about balance. This is yet another arguement for giving you input to the union and letting them fight it out on behalf of the entire pilot group.
Stick together and we'll get through this storm...it's just going to take a while.
Peace!
2. While I personally believe that airline management used 9/11 as an excuse to re-structure labor (read: crush labor), there is also an epidemic of enormous proportion in the area of pension stealing that is not isolated to the airline industry. I'm not a big fan of Time, but they have an article recently about the subject which is a must read for anyone who has a pension.
3. WE are the strenght of ALPA, or whatever organization represents your pilot group. STRENGTH in UNITY is self fufilling. If the organization splinters away, so does its bargaining power. While things aren't perfect, or even great for many right now--how would you be treated if you had to represent yourself without any organized labor? We would all be out of jobs, and I don't think that is an overstatement. At minimum, the jobs we have would not be worth the pay and workrules that would be implemented. I can guarantee you that the cost of dues pays for itself whether times are good or bad. I do realize that this is a tough pill to swallow, especially for the furloughed folks, but it is true.
Don't let the vocal minority make you feel defeated. Remember, only 4% of Americans are athiest and want God taken out of the pledge or off the dollar bill, but you hear about it all the time on the TV. A few anti-union pilots(or perhaps plants from management to seed your beliefs) disheartened about true misfortunes in their career should not sway you from the basic belief that we must be represented. Don't like the representation? VOTE!! or run for office yourself. There are a lot of people who would benefit from the demise of ALPA...the pilots they represent are not among that group. Please, no comments claiming that I'm comparing God and ALPA or whomever...it's all about the vocal minority.
Food for thought--What is great about this job can also be a detriment. There is a lot of variety in the workplace...Don't like certain layovers, well somebody lives there and they want them. Don't like flying the red-eyes, some folks eat them up. It makes it a little easier to get what you want because not everybody wants what you want. Well, this is a killer when it comes to negotiations: Some want more money, others more time off, others focus on retirement. No CBA will make everyone happy about every issue. Please remember this when you are faced with something that isn't as tasty as you'd like...it's all about balance. This is yet another arguement for giving you input to the union and letting them fight it out on behalf of the entire pilot group.
Stick together and we'll get through this storm...it's just going to take a while.
Peace!
FNG_that's me
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2004
- Posts
- 194
Publishers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,736
I think that what you have to look at is ALPA prior to deregulation and ALPA post deregulation. They are two different things. In trying to look for a similar example, the closest I could come up with was the auto industry prior to the Japanese and German invasion.
In these cases, a union dominates an industry and forces certain factors until they force them to the point that something else comes up that topples the kingdom. The killing of the golden goose is a well worn phrase.
ALPA dominated during deregulation, managed to force certain pay and work levels and continued to do so until the playing field was changed. Like most big organizations, they got fixed in their way of thinking and did not adapt well to the new world. The auto companies dominated Detroit, drove up wages and work rules until it became economical to import cars made by people with less wage and rules.
Both unions made major mistakes/.
In these cases, a union dominates an industry and forces certain factors until they force them to the point that something else comes up that topples the kingdom. The killing of the golden goose is a well worn phrase.
ALPA dominated during deregulation, managed to force certain pay and work levels and continued to do so until the playing field was changed. Like most big organizations, they got fixed in their way of thinking and did not adapt well to the new world. The auto companies dominated Detroit, drove up wages and work rules until it became economical to import cars made by people with less wage and rules.
Both unions made major mistakes/.
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