ALPA/401k revisited

[Medeco]

So I heard another pilot yesterday talking about a way to get back at ALPA for the 401K issue.

Tell me your thoughts.

IF the resolution is passed, we as individuals should tell the company to stop automatically deducting our dues. This will cause ALPA to bill all pilots for there dues.

We send them our normal amount, but not the additional.

This would take a large group acting in harmony to make the point, which is a challenge in itself.

Can this be done?

Medeco

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Your suggestion will simply delay the dues... not stop it...


Why not become part of the political process... contact your status reps that 66% of your fellow pilots didn't bother to vote for and tell them how to vote....

I know self government is a challenge... but hey... it's YOUR career....

 

[Medeco]

I have taked with some reps.

It appears that they may vote against it, but that doesnt mean it will stop it.

I'm all for participating in the process the correct way, but if they dont listen to a large portion of dues paying members saying DONT DO THIS, then a protest of sort may be a good wake up call.

Thank you for your input.

Medeco

 

[sweptback]

If the reps don't vote the wishes of the pilot group, recalling them would be a much stronger statement then a "protest" like this.

If the ASA reps vote no and it still passes, that's democracy in action. You don't move to Canada after your chosen presidential candidate loses, right?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So I heard another pilot yesterday talking about a way to get back at ALPA for the 401K issue.

Tell me your thoughts.

IF the resolution is passed, we as individuals should tell the company to stop automatically deducting our dues. This will cause ALPA to bill all pilots for there dues.

We send them our normal amount, but not the additional.

This would take a large group acting in harmony to make the point, which is a challenge in itself.

Can this be done?

Medeco

Yes it can be done and if it is done by many people it will cost ALPA more than they are getting in this misguided move......

I would suggest however that you withold ALL dues, not just the 401k amount....In either case you will go into bad standing and the union will exercise the Agency Shop clause....However that process will take time and you can write a check and come current after they start to come after you.....If large numbers of people do it, it will take up much ALPA resources to go after everyone....

Another thing you can do to send a message is to write your comments on the ALPA PAC postage paid envelopes that come in the ALPA magazine....Don't send any money....just constructive comments......

People aren't saving enough for retirement as it is...to take money that was set aside for retirement is shortsighted.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

If the reps don't vote the wishes of the pilot group, recalling them would be a much stronger statement then a "protest" like this.

If the ASA reps vote no and it still passes, that's democracy in action. You don't move to Canada after your chosen presidential candidate loses, right?

Democracy can be dangerous....and yes at some point a revolution is called for....

 

[sweptback]

People aren't saving enough for retirement as it is...to take money that was set aside for retirement is shortsighted.....

Look, I don't like this proposal. I'm not a rep, but I've made my views clear to the reps (as everybody should!). If they need to raise dues, they need to do it across the board. I hope it doesn't come to that though.

However, it doesn't take money set aside for retirement. It just makes you pay a little more in dues. Just like how when your medical premiums go up you don't put less in your retirement plan... you just pay a little more in premiums.

But you already knew this. You're smart, you just turn everything into a means to advance your agenda. I just like calling you on your BS.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Look, I don't like this proposal. I'm not a rep, but I've made my views clear to the reps (as everybody should!). If they need to raise dues, they need to do it across the board. I hope it doesn't come to that though.

However, it doesn't take money set aside for retirement. It just makes you pay a little more in dues. Just like how when your medical premiums go up you don't put less in your retirement plan... you just pay a little more in premiums.

But you already knew this. You're smart, you just turn everything into a means to advance your agenda. I just like calling you on your BS.

If some is going to set about X amount of money for retirement, then yes it does reduce how much they will put away......Part of that X will now go to Herndon instead of to the 401k.....

It's like the people who say this isn't a dues increase...it most certainly is if you participate in the 401k and your airline doesn't have a retirement plan....

For some people who don't have much extra income, they reduce what they put into retirement when other costs go up....including health insurance or union dues....

We need to encourage more 401k participation and not less...This country isn't preparing for retirement and Obama isn't going to solve that problem.....

As for your last snide remark, would you care to tell me what my "agenda" is? We all have "agendas" and we all try to advance them....I suspect you have no idea what my "agenda" is.....While we're at it, what is YOUR agenda?

 

[Soverytired]

Just pay it with a smile.

Just because pilots paychecks have dropped considerably over the past decade, it doesn't mean ALPA should have to suffer too.

 

[mtsupilot376]

Take that ALPA!

I cancelled my 401k and am now investing in the private sector instead.

 

[sweptback]

If some is going to set about X amount of money for retirement, then yes it does reduce how much they will put away......Part of that X will now go to Herndon instead of to the 401k.....

You can't be serious. Nobody I know says "I'm only going to spend X on retirement" and then adjusts that based on the bills they have that month.

The whole point of a 401k is that it is a "pay yourself first" setup. Your 401k money comes out before any deductions, taxes, or bills.

A dues increase will not affect this, nor will a tax increase, or any other increase.

If somebody chooses to reduce their 401k contributions over a few dollars extra per month, that's their choice, but not a very smart one.

 

[sweptback]

I cancelled my 401k and am now investing in the private sector instead.

No offense, but that's pretty dumb.

A 401k is investing in the "private sector" unless you only invest in government bonds.

Also, by canceling your 401k you just gave up free money in the company match. That will add up to much, much more over the course of your life than the $5 extra per month you would pay in dues.

You should be investing in both a 401k and an IRA. As much as you can afford!

 

[mtsupilot376]

is ALPA taking a chunk of our performance plus checks too?

 

[JoeMerchant]

You can't be serious. Nobody I know says "I'm only going to spend X on retirement" and then adjusts that based on the bills they have that month.

The whole point of a 401k is that it is a "pay yourself first" setup. Your 401k money comes out before any deductions, taxes, or bills.

A dues increase will not affect this, nor will a tax increase, or any other increase.

If somebody chooses to reduce their 401k contributions over a few dollars extra per month, that's their choice, but not a very smart one.

The money is coming from somewhere.....If they are only contributing what they can afford, then as witholdings (union dues, health insurance, and taxes) increase, they have to withold less....The only one they can realistically reduce is the 401k contribution.....Little bits of money add up to real money....

In addition ALPA hasn't EARNED the right to demand more dues money....In fact a good argument could be made that ALPA's failures have contributed to the budget problem they are facing.....Is the ALPA President shaving any of his 400,000 plus compensation package?

By the way.....What is my "agenda".....and what is your "agenda"....

 

[JoeMerchant]

No offense, but that's pretty dumb.

A 401k is investing in the "private sector" unless you only invest in government bonds.

Also, by canceling your 401k you just gave up free money in the company match. That will add up to much, much more over the course of your life than the $5 extra per month you would pay in dues.

You should be investing in both a 401k and an IRA. As much as you can afford!

Sweptback....I wouldn't cancel the 401k, but you can see how this affects peoples decisions....There are several advantages of the 401k

1. Company match
2. Tax deferred growth
3. Money was taken out before ALPA dues which added to ones bottom line.

We still have the company match, however the other 2 advantages are in danger. ALPA wants to tax that money and there is a high probability that future taxes will be higher than current taxes...We don't need to give people reasons to not prepare for their retirement.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

is ALPA taking a chunk of our performance plus checks too?

YES it is.

 

[mtsupilot376]

See that just doesn't make sense. We bust our asses out on the line to make sure that our numbers are good. This, in turn, ensures that the company is in a good relationship with our one and only client. So what is the incentive now?
So let me get this straight, ALPA in an interest to protect our jobs wants more money from us, but they are going to take it from our retirement and our performance bonuses. This removes our incentives both to invest in the future and to post good numbers on the line.

Way to go ALPA.

 

[DoinTime]

I cancelled my 401k and am now investing in the private sector instead.

You do realize that regardless if you participate in your 401 that you will be paying the same amount of dues, right?

 

[11thHour]

So I poured through the latest ALPA "Airline Pilot" magazine, and didn't see this mentioned at all. So I either just missed it - OR (more likely) - they don't want us to know about it. I'm very angry about this. Rest assured my rep has heard an earful from me!

 

[dojetdriver]

So I poured through the latest ALPA "Airline Pilot" magazine, and didn't see this mentioned at all. So I either just missed it - OR (more likely) - they don't want us to know about it. I'm very angry about this. Rest assured my rep has heard an earful from me!

I'm sure there were plenty of bright/glossy/shiny photos of some ALPA guys sitting around a table somewhere involved in some kind of "conference" or calling themselves some kind of "team" or "taskforce" resolving some issue.

If they wanted to save money, they could start by possibly spending LESS money on the magazine.

Yeah, there is SOME good info in there SOMETIMES, but good grief.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Yes it can be done and if it is done by many people it will cost ALPA more than they are getting in this misguided move......

I would suggest however that you withold ALL dues, not just the 401k amount....In either case you will go into bad standing and the union will exercise the Agency Shop clause....However that process will take time and you can write a check and come current after they start to come after you.....If large numbers of people do it, it will take up much ALPA resources to go after everyone....

Another thing you can do to send a message is to write your comments on the ALPA PAC postage paid envelopes that come in the ALPA magazine....Don't send any money....just constructive comments......

honestly, what is the point of doing this above? Do you really think when the ALPA staffers get PAC cards back with nasty thoughts on them, the Executive Council is going to say, "well, we probably shouldn't change anything about the dues..." If you're really unhappy about this, I would suggest starting an education campaign at work and having everyone you know contact their rep and tell them to vote no.

Has anybody actually taken the time to see how much more money they will be paying? You'll find out that it is most likely going to be less than $10/month.

If you do things like cancel your checkoff, it is going to be pretty easy to fall behind and find your job in jeopardy with quite a large bill to pay. Meanwhile you won't be able to vote in any elections, participate in a recall of the reps that you are so mad at for voting in this <$10 increase, vote on any TAs, etc.

People aren't saving enough for retirement as it is...to take money that was set aside for retirement is shortsighted.....

ALPA is not taking any body's retirement money. The amount of money going into your retirement fund will stay exactly the same.

 

[PCL_128]

What a bunch of whiney little cry babies. And all over $10 a month that hasn't even been approved yet. Get off your asses and start a campaign to convince the BOD not to approve it. If you still lose, then pay your damned dues and stop whining. You'll pay more on your crappy Starbucks coffee tomorrow than you'll pay in extra dues for the month, yet you b!tch about this. Unbelievable.

 

[Yodafly]

Is the Teamsters also trying to pass this

 

[Freight Dog]

Those extra $10 could mean a month supply of Ramen that you'll need when the rug gets pulled from under you...

 

[Speedtape]

Let's see:

This is the story of two pilots that both work for the same company, both hired in the same class, both upgraded at the same time on the same equipment. Pilot A decides not to participate in the 401k--for what ever reason. Pilot B decides to participate in the 401k to the maximum that the law allows. Both pilots earn $80,000 in GROSS WAGES. Pilot A pays ALPA dues of .0195 of his GROSS WAGES of $80,000. Pilot B only pays .0195 on his Taxable Wages of $70,000(Gross Wages $80,0000 minus 401K contribution of $10,000). Is this fair?

Both pilots work under the same collective bargaining agreement. Their agreement was negotiated by the same collective bargaining agent. All pay and work rules that exist are a result of the efforts of that collective bargaining agent, which also include the efforts of the local pilot group. Most likely, their current collective bargaining contract evolved over time to a better contract with better work rules. AND, as time goes on, that contract should improve. Those improvementents usually include increased compensation in many forms.

The questions are:
In all fairness, should Pilot B pay less money in dues than Pilot A, based on the fact that he elects to participate in a 401K? Should those wages that he elects to contribute to the 401k be exempt from dues? Were those monies not part of the wage that he earned that were negotiated under the collective bargaining agreement that both Pilot B and Pilot A work under? Should all members not pay the same percentage on GROSS WAGES?

 

[PCL_128]

Don't bother with common sense with these malcontents, Speedtape. You'll get nowhere.

 

[DGdaPilot]

Eagle ALPA is voting NO. Who else's LEC/MEC is gonna stand up to this crap????

And if that's your attitude Speedtape and PCL, then should US taxpayers be penalized for the same type of actions? We reduce our taxable income by using Flex Spending Accounts, Dependent Daycare Accounts, 401k contributions, itemized deductions, etc, etc. Should those people pay an extra government tax because they were smarter with their money?

 

[PCL_128]

Eagle ALPA is voting NO. Who else's LEC/MEC is gonna stand up to this crap????

And if that's your attitude Speedtape and PCL, then should US taxpayers be penalized for the same type of actions? We reduce our taxable income by using Flex Spending Accounts, Dependent Daycare Accounts, 401k contributions, itemized deductions, etc, etc. Should those people pay an extra government tax because they were smarter with their money?

These are dues, not taxes. But since you asked, yes, I support a flat tax or a sales tax, so investments would be taxed in those tax structures.

 

[Soverytired]

Let's see:


The questions are:
In all fairness, should Pilot B pay less money in dues than Pilot A, based on the fact that he elects to participate in a 401K? Should those wages that he elects to contribute to the 401k be exempt from dues? Were those monies not part of the wage that he earned that were negotiated under the collective bargaining agreement that both Pilot B and Pilot A work under? Should all members not pay the same percentage on GROSS WAGES?

Yeah, those guys who took advantage of the 401(k) to save for their retirement and thereby deny ALPA dues money are FREELOADERS.

I think ALPA should not only close this loophole, but retroactively assess these selfish bastards who kept money out of ALPA's coffers. And they should pay interest, plus a penalty as well.

It's only "fair".

 

[Nevets]

June 13, 2008

Dear ALPA Board of Directors Member:

At the May 2008 Executive Board meeting, the National Officers and ALPA’s General Manager provided a thorough briefing on our union’s finances after the loss of US Airways, America West, Aloha, ATA, Champion, Kitty Hawk, and Skyway. We had to make some tough decisions to ensure that we retain the balance of services deserved by our members and the financial health and viability of our union. We could not continue with business as usual—immediate action was required to sustain our Association’s effectiveness after this sudden loss of $15 million in dues revenue.

One of those tough decisions was a recommendation to the Board of Directors by the Executive Board that a change be implemented regarding income exempt from dues. This was not a sudden decision, but one that has been studied and evaluated over the past several years. In September 2006, the Executive Board directed the Executive Council to study this matter. The study was to view the exemptions from the perspectives of fairness, simplicity, and clarity, as well as the implications on dues revenue.

Currently, the following incomes are exempt from dues:

1. Sick leave income in excess of that provided by sick leave provisions in a CBA or Company sick leave policy
2. Income received from the Company for services in a different job classification while physically unable to perform as a pilot or flight officer
3. Special bonus or merit award, provided that a general bonus to all members of an airline is not exempt
4. Income from the Company while on furlough not requiring flight crewman qualifications
5. Foreign cost-of-living allowances
6. Furlough income
7. Premium payments by the Company on behalf of a member for specified excess life insurance coverage and the value of travel benefits provided to him or her
8. Vacation pay received after retirement
9. Income in the form of corporate securities
10. 401(k) deferrals of income (or the Canadian equivalent) when that plan is the only pension program
11. Company-paid moving expenses and allowances
12. Per diem

This section of the ALPA Constitution & By-Laws (Article IX, Section 4), in particular the exemption of 401(k) deferrals, was adopted more than 20 years ago. The environment and the pilot retirement benefit programs at that time put more of an emphasis on defined benefit plans and other company-funded defined contribution retirement plans. 401(k) plans (and their Canadian equivalent) were more of a salary deferral vehicle than a method of ensuring retirement income that complemented a pilot’s other retirement plans.

However, retirement benefit plan structures have undergone significant changes over the past five years—including the freezing or terminating of many of our defined benefit plans and the increasing consolidation of defined contribution plans under the 401(k) umbrella. 401(k) plans are now being treated as interchangeable with other defined contribution plans, and have become a hybrid of deferred compensation and retirement plans. The pilot contributions are part of a pilot’s regular income but deferred by the pilot, largely for income tax reasons.
In reviewing this matter over the past several years, the Executive Council and Executive Board rejected two other approaches to addressing the issue of how dues are applied to pilot 401(k) contributions. The first was to exempt all 401(k) contributions from dues, which would reduce dues income by an additional $6 million a year and make it difficult for the union to deliver the services our members deserve. The other was to do nothing. If we choose not to take action, the inequality between some pilots having dues deducted from their contributions to 401(k)s and others not having dues deducted would continue. And, as defined contribution plans continue to be consolidated under the 401(k) umbrella, the dues base would continue to erode.

The study also showed that by making all 401(k) salary deferrals subject to dues, the increase in dues to the union would also provide greater funding to the MECs that currently need supplemental funding from the Operating Contingency Fund and Major Contingency Fund. Dues revenue for the union would increase by $1.5M—though a substantial portion of that amount would flow back to ALPA member groups for their use.

The analyses showed that, based on data from 2006 dues revenue, the additional dues revenue paid by a pilot who has a 401(k) deferral and an annual income of $25,000 or less would be $.81 per paycheck. Using the same data, the highest increase per paycheck was $11 for annual income between $150,000 and $175,000 with an average of $7 per paycheck.

Therefore, the Executive Board recommended to the Board of Directors that all 401(k) salary deferrals no longer be exempt from dues, and that the special bonus or merit award exemption be eliminated as well.

It is also important to emphasize that a significant change is under way across all aspects of the Association due to the loss of the aforementioned seven pilot groups and $15 million in dues revenue. A comprehensive plan to address the shortfall was presented to the Executive Board, which includes: retaining unused LEC funding (currently at $44/pilot per year) within our Administrative & Support account for an estimated savings of $900,000; elimination of home Internet expense reimbursement for a savings of more than $100,000; decrease in per capita expenses of $800,000, restructuring of national committees, a streamlining of activities and general cost reduction of $1.2 million; and finally, the elimination of more than 40 staff positions across the entire union along with other staff savings generating a savings of approximately $5.1 million. Since 9/11, ALPA has eliminated approximately 101 staff positions through attrition and job eliminations. That translates to a pre-9/11 staffing level of 454 to our expected staffing level (after the elimination of the more than 40 staff positions) of 353.

We are in the process of verifying the impact of this change on each ALPA airline along with developing applicable information regarding how it will impact each ALPA MEC budget. We will forward this information to you when this work has been finalized. Once such information has been disseminated, the Board of Directors’ ballot on this item will be distributed.
ALPA is changing—your union is focusing on the services and resources necessary to support core functions with a smaller footprint, more efficient use of funds and expenditures, and participation by all parts of the Association. If you have any questions, please contact us.
Sincerely,

William R. Couette
Vice President-Administration/Secretary
[email protected]

W. Randolph Helling
Vice President-Finance/Treasurer
[email protected]