ALL Flying will performed by AA pilots

[YourPilotFriend]

Where do I sign up for this union?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

..... don't really care how you feel about it Rez.... Members of the ASA MEC have said it helped us here at ASA...... That's all I'm concerned about......

Who Joey? Names? Do you have adocumented quote... or was it just a verbal comment to pacify you???

 

[jke406]

I'm confused by this thread. Why would any regional pilot think they have any leverage over what the mainline pilots want? Isn't that why almost everyone wants to progress to the mainline?

Otherwise, all the folks who built up time, paid their dues, and went through the process would be clamoring to earn a fraction of the pay with a fraction of the QOL at a regional. Am I wrong?

 

[AA717driver]

When Eagle approached AA about a merged list PRE 9/11, AA laughed the "rookies" out the door. When AA approached AE about merging the list AFTER 9/11 APA wanted it to be a staple job with a complete bump and flush of the Eagle pilots to get the AA pilots off the street. That's pretty f-ing arrogant, but I do respect APA's attempt to best represent their pilots. The part that was unpalatable was....after a total bump, when the economy turned around, they wanted to be able to hire pilots off the street "AHEAD OF THE EAGLE PILOTS" on the list because they said it wasn't fair to their old squadron buddies to have to start at AA on a SAAB. WAAAAAAH! I'm sorry, but APA doesn't represent pilots that don't work for the company, even if they were in the squadron together.

They had a lot of chances to control all the flying, but greed got the best of them.

Bull. APA did not want a "complete bump and flush" after 9/11. In fact, they offered to limit flowbacks to a total of 125. The Eagle MEC refused, stating they were going to stop ANY AA pilot from flowing back.

We know how THAT worked. We've gone over this time and time again.

This 'urban legend' stuff is what prevents any meaningful dialogue from taking place.

BTW, I have personally talked to Eagle guys who would accept nothing less than DOH at AA. This is far from one-sided.

Gotta run. I've got my own integration to defend...TC

 

[~~~^~~~]

Who Joey? Names? Do you have adocumented quote... or was it just a verbal comment to pacify you???

Rez, I heard the same statements from the MEC and former Status Reps (with the exception of the two FO Reps who I've not ever talked to). But to put this in context, these are pretty much the same people who drafted the PID and who were RJDC supporters back in the early days.

 

[JoeMerchant]

OK, agreed, law of the jungle is effective and practiced in most jurisdictions. But, wasn't that what the RJDC was trying to fix?

>Law of the Jungle = small jet pilots have no rights
>ALPA M&F policy = very high probability of staple with ineffective and uneven application on the policy
>RJDC preferred = fair and enforced application of the policies on the books, with an independent judiciary to review. Very high probability of staple with protections and fences.

While I understand the differences, I do not know why you would support the "everyone looks out for themselves" when you consider the outcome of a Delta v/s anyone else battle.

Fins, I don't support the "everyone looks out for themselves" as the "best" solution...... rather I have accepted it as the current way of doing business within ALPA.....

World peace would be great...... but it ain't going to happen...... neither is a single list or "brand scope"..... The elephants have made the bed and we all have to sleep in it now.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm still not giving up on the idea of an inclusive union.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Who Joey? Names? Do you have adocumented quote... or was it just a verbal comment to pacify you???

The senior most member of the ASA MEC.... he has been doing ALPA work for many years.... Of course he is an ASA "lifer" as am I.... so I'm sure our opinions don't really matter to the "regionals are just stepping stone jobs" group.....

Nobody on the MEC says anything to "pacify" me...... They know better than that....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm still not giving up on the idea of an inclusive union.

I'm not giving up on World Peace either...... but I want a big Army with lots of weapons pointed at the enemy...... I can't afford to trust my career to the "hopes" of a true "inclusive union"..... If it happens great...... if not then we all need to defend our turf.....

If there is any hope of ALPA reforming, I believe it's very existance will have to be challenged..... Many times that is the only way to effect meaningful reform......

Politicians aren't going to change ALPA..... only leaders will.... and I don't see many of them....

 

[CopilotDoug]

plus the APA can afford to wave a big stick around... they don't have responsibility of serving many groups with different needs.

Which is one of many reasons why your sacred ALPO sucks the big one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Anyone else miss 737Pylt?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The senior most member of the ASA MEC.... he has been doing ALPA work for many years.... Of course he is an ASA "lifer" as am I.... so I'm sure our opinions don't really matter to the "regionals are just stepping stone jobs" group.....

Nobody on the MEC says anything to "pacify" me...... They know better than that....

Who Joey....name names...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Which is one of many reasons why your sacred ALPO sucks the big one.

So you think there should be no representation? Or all representation should be in house, with no central or 'national'.

If so, then please explain the pros and cons of such a change?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Who Joey....name names...

DU....... WF will also tell you that the DAL MEC was hot to get J4Js, but that the lawsuit was a factor......

Sorry Rez.... but it did affect the way ALPA and DALPA handled things with ASA and CMR....

 

[JoeMerchant]

So you think there should be no representation? Or all representation should be in house, with no central or 'national'.

If so, then please explain the pros and cons of such a change?

..... of course one of the downsides to having an in house union is not being able to use DFR lawsuits to keep the mainline union in line......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry Rez.... but it did affect the way ALPA and DALPA handled things with ASA and CMR....

Sometimes the methods aren't worth the results.... you lost something along the way Joey.... creditibility, respect, trust, reputation, integrity...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

..... of course one of the downsides to having an in house union is not being able to use DFR lawsuits to keep the mainline union in line......

Something to be proud of I am sure...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sometimes the methods aren't worth the results.... you lost something along the way Joey.... creditibility, respect, trust, reputation, integrity...

...... lost with you and the mainline folks..... don't really care..... We kept our seniority in tact, and changed the way ALPA will have to deal with scope in the future..... Well worth it even if you don't respect me in the morning.......

I'll say it again...... I'm not concerned with what you think..... I am doing what I think is best...... If you don't like it or respect it...... that's tough......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Something to be proud of I am sure...

Not a matter of pride...... rather a necessary evil in this dog eat dog industry....... I'll take any leverage I can get.......

I bet the Eagle pilots wish they had some DFR to hold over the APA pilots..... but they don't..... The APA is free to screw the Eagle pilots over without any DFR concerns......

 

[PCL_128]

Who Joey....name names...

He's not lying. I know of at least one current MEC member that believes what Joey is saying. I respect the guy, but I think he's off base on this. I don't think DALPA ever had any plans for J4J.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL - Lawson's action in reply to the Delta pilots' legitimate request to open Comair to furloghees was one of the worst political moves I've ever seen and harmed the pilots he represented.

That was always JC's big weakness. He has a deep seated disdain for DAL pilots, even though he won't admit it. He can't see straight when it comes time to deal directly with them. Despite this big bone-headed move, he is generally regarded well within the Association, and was certainly a respected member of the EC. In most cases, he's a good politician, and he knows how to get things done. He just can't keep his head straight when it comes time to deal with DALPA. This seemed to change somewhat when Lee Moak came in. I was at a few events that were attended by both of them, and they seemed to be getting along well. Hopefully things will work better between DALPA and JC in the future.

 

[IronCityBlue]

The scope of DFR (pun intended)

I bet the Eagle pilots wish they had some DFR to hold over the APA pilots..... but they don't..... The APA is free to screw the Eagle pilots over without any DFR concerns......

While true that the Eagle pilots would have no DFR against the APA regardless of what they negotiate, is it your contention that Delta (or any other ALPA airline) is prohibited from submitting a pay scale to management and flying 70 seat CRJ aircraft?

If its A-OK for that flying to be outsourced to Non union SkyWest, E-170 flying to IBT Republic group, etc, why can't any mainline agree with their management to do that flying themselves?

If you are to say "but that could hurt ALPA ASA" (or whoever, same example) how is that any different than non ALPA airlines getting that work by being the lowest bidders?

As for what a mainline group says other ALPA groups (ASA in this example) can or can not do "on their own" why isn't that in their rights as well? For example, DALPA can't fly EV (that's ASA's code, right?) code flights without the permission of the ASA pilots. No one argues with that. ASA can't fly DL code without DALPA permission. They have permission to do so, but that permission comes with restrictions.

The entire ability to fly DL code was contained in the DALPA contract, and they have chosen to make exceptions and exemptions. Each one of those exceptions is tied to the length of their contract. While it would be extremely expensive (probably prohibitively so) for the Delta pilots to inform management they are taking it all back when management has inked long term deals with regional partners, theoretically if they wanted to what is unfair (DFR wise) about them doing that?

If the Delta scope says if ASA (again, not picking on ASA, just running with the example being used) operates a 737 or 777 anywhere within their holding company they lose the ability to fly DL code, why isn't the Delta pilot's sole right to demand that? ASA would still be 100% free and clear to fly whatever their management arranged for them to fly, but if that removes the ability for ASA to fly DL code that's unfortunate but not in violation of DFR IMHO.

Now unilaterally negotiating super seniority flow backs without the concent of all ALPA pilot groups concerned IMO would be a violation of ALPA's DFR. Delta pilots have no right whatsoever to do that unless you agree. They have no right to fly EV code, unless you agree, and even if you do agree they must abide by the terms and conditions you set forth in your agreement with EV management.

If ASA (or anyone) wants to try an "Indy Air" type operation, more power to them. But if its not in compliance with the Delta pilot agreement, the Delta pilots have the right to force their management to cancel that particular permitted outsource codeshare agreement, if that is written into the terms and conditions of Delta's code share agreement with management.

While it may seem like arrogance on the surface to suggest that Delta pilots own all DL flying and agree to outsource some of it under certain conditions, that is the way it is and there's nothing DFR wrong with that. ASA is free to negotiate any agreement with SkyWest management concerning EV code, and if you eventually get 100% holding company scope (many contracts away, if ever, it looks like) then you can set the terms of allowing your code to be outsourced.

Its been over 7 years since DF and his partners fertilized the PID embryo which became the RJDC baby the following year. All but one claim dismissed outright and the other in an eternal legal quagmire that so far has barely adjusted merely the methodology in which ALPA communicates and does certain things. Meanwhile SkyWest management does whatever it pleases, the whipsaw continues, and the RJDC is claiming partial victory and promising more on the horizon.

What specifically do you see happening with the suit that will truly make things better? The ability to do an Indy Air while still holding on to whatever ammount of the DL code that SkyWest management decides to give you today? You own your (EV) flying, and Delta owns theirs (DL). They allow some outsourcing under very specific terms. You allow none. What's non-DFR about that?

The last thing this industry needs is more outsourcing. If some pilot group gets the sack to man up and fight to get some of it back, good for them and the entire profession. It will be a very expensive fight that I don't think any group has the guts for, including AA despite their tough talk "opener". But if CAL can hold tight to no jets over 50 seats and AA can at least bring the 70 in house, maybe Delta can do the same and begin to force airline managements to actually run airlines instead of ACMI low bid lift providers. What's so unfair about that?

 

[PCL_128]

Excellent post! But Joe just doesn't get it, and never will. BTW, the lawsuit is officially history. ALPA approved the settlement proposal and the lawsuit is now dead. Thank God.

 

[IronCityBlue]

What did they settle for?

 

[Golden Falcon]

there should be no "eagle"/ "mainline" pilots...only AA pilots...this is where the mainline pilots screwed it up 2 decades ago..now it bites them in the ass

 

[PCL_128]

What did they settle for?

Partial legal fees and some additional language in the Admin Manual that requires mainline MECs to brief their regional counterpart MECs on what their scope proposals will be in negotiations. Basically, very little. The plaintiffs still had to pay considerable legal fees on their own, and the language added to the Admin Manual is very benign. Basically, 8 years of whining from the RJDC for nothing.

 

[AA717driver]

there should be no "eagle"/ "mainline" pilots...only AA pilots...this is where the mainline pilots screwed it up 2 decades ago..now it bites them in the ass

GF--No truer words have been spoken here. TC

 

[pylut]

you lost something along the way Joey.... creditibility, respect, trust, reputation, integrity...

Now if you simply remove "joey" and insert "alpa" this statement will resound with truth.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If the Delta scope says if ASA (again, not picking on ASA, just running with the example being used) operates a 737 or 777 anywhere within their holding company they lose the ability to fly DL code, why isn't the Delta pilot's sole right to demand that? ASA would still be 100% free and clear to fly whatever their management arranged for them to fly, but if that removes the ability for ASA to fly DL code that's unfortunate but not in violation of DFR IMHO.

As you eluded too later in your post. ACA was doing DL code in the D328's. When ACA told UAL to pound sand, the thought was...keep running the D328 ops for Delta.

However, the DAL pilots (DALPA) had in thier contract that no vendor (so to speak) could operate narrowbodies.

It was a choice ACA made.. and the ACA ALPA (ACO) guys understood this and didn't get all "Joey Merchant-RJDC" about it....

Now if you simply remove "joey" and insert "alpa" this statement will resound with truth.

***YAWN***

Same ol stuff from the ALPA-hater crowd. You know, the guys who do nothing and expect everything. Guys that have no clue as to the complex dynamics of the local, national and global political environment. Guys who don't keep thier address updated, don't vote, don't communicate, don't know who thier elected reps are... Guys that show up, fly thier trips and go home and expect everything to be just dandy. They think ALPA is a all inclusive resort and when they don't get thier Kaluha Coloda on demand they think ALPA is FUBAR.

Guys who created unrealistic expecations on thier own accord, then get pissed when reality smacks them about like a 2x4 upside the head... then... guess who is responsible for thier misaligned expectations? Not them...ALPA....

People who do nothing are the ones that complain the most.... oh wait you did do something... you scratched your itchy mangina on FI.

 

[AA717driver]

***YAWN***

Same ol stuff from the ALPA-hater crowd.

Maybe because it's true...

BTW, this thread is about AA, find another soapbox, Rez. TC