Airtran posts 4th quarter profit of 1.9 million

[Bake]

Maybe my prayers are coming true. Every night I pray that the DOJ does kill this deal. That would be best for all of us. Everyone should pray this, can I get a Kumbaya?

 

[scoreboardII]

My Lord.

 

[Bake]

You talkin to me or Eddie Iron Maiden?

 

[Bake]

Have fun throwing gear for me.

I'll be glad to throw gear for ya Max if that's how it turns out, but please don't throw that CPA crap at me in the cockpit. By the way, very intelligent comeback. You a smart one.

 

[redflyer65]

I make 163 as a 12 yr captain. We agreed to a less than stellar TA to bridge this SWA-AAI deal (last TA turned down had 180 at top pay rate). Our retirement is 10.5% w/no match necessary. 18 days off, blah blah blah.That doesnt seem like 50-100% windfall.

Of course your rate, QOL, etc. is better. but lets not bend the facts here!

I've actually done the math on here before. It really is 50-100% for most AAI pilots, or to put it another way...

a 7000.00 dollar a month across the board increase for all AAI pilots.

The senior FO math was 100% increase off the old payscale (which we should really be using), or more than 50% increase off the new rates.

as a 12yr AAI captain, do you make $270,000 a year?

Did your career expectations change from Sept. 26th to the 27th?

 

[avi8tor007]

On Sept. 27th we lost our negotiating power. The ball was in mgmt's court, so yes it was a less than stellar contract! The FO's got a larger raise(much deserved),and my group ended up with a $8 raise. whooopi, Life goes on!

I would assume nearly every pilots career expectations on both sides just changed! (except the senior guys). I do get that you make more money. But at the end of the day, were not in charge. Chances are a neutral party will figure this whole thing out, and we can move on.

I am not on here to bicker and whine guys, of course this is good for us. It will be good for everybody( I hope), eventually.

 

[Bake]

That's just the thing. you know it is good for you but we don't know that it is good for us. Why is that so hard to understand.

 

[redflyer65]

On Sept. 27th we lost our negotiating power. The ball was in mgmt's court, so yes it was a less than stellar contract! The FO's got a larger raise(much deserved),and my group ended up with a $8 raise. whooopi, Life goes on!

I would assume nearly every pilots career expectations on both sides just changed! (except the senior guys). I do get that you make more money. But at the end of the day, were not in charge. Chances are a neutral party will figure this whole thing out, and we can move on.

I am not on here to bicker and whine guys, of course this is good for us. It will be good for everybody( I hope), eventually.

Nice post avi8tor.

It could be good for most of us. I kinda worry ALPA is gonna really drag out what could be a cohesive work group. I have never been impressed with their direction. Just an over bloated, top heavy union. (and we need to make sure SWAPA doesn't head that way too)

 

[FlyinGuy]

On Sept. 27th we lost our negotiating power.

Many at SWA would love for you to get your negotiating power back.

 

[Slug]

I would assume nearly every pilots career expectations on both sides just changed! (except the senior guys).

It will be good for everybody( I hope), eventually.

Therein lies the problem. There are no pilots on the AT list that will lose money over their career. I sit in the top 20% of the F/Os at SWA. My career earnings actually decrease in several of the AT lopsided SLI scenarios because of a more delayed upgrade. Many AT guys say SWA guys will still get their payrates, benies, QOL, and don't lose anything. I say that is bunk; longer upgrade time does take out of my career earnings.

Slug

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

birdman1 [FONT=&quot]One of three outcomes will happen with this deal.

1.) Both pilot groups reach a fair SLI that pleases both sides. This will not only lead to a successful merger but a major force to reckon with in the airline industry. This is a very unlikely scenario. But, I hope I am wrong...this deal will be good for both the employee and the customer.

I agree, unfortunately. Every time I go to work this dominates the conversation with every pilot. The pilots at SWA are very concerned about this SLI. And not for the good.

2.) DOJ does not approve the deal. I'm sorry to say, but this is very likely. Can't go into the details.

This is also a distinct possibility. Many deals have fallen through because of difficulty through the process. Many deals have also fallen through because of the unions not coming to terms on transitional and seniority issues. The controlling companies 6000 pilots at this time DO NOT like what they are hearing on the line largely from the ones of the likes of "Ty Webb". The flight attendants at 10,000 strong are now and I quote "are beginning to freak out" about this integration. These two SWA groups DO NOT want this integration. I know our leaders and if they think this may affect our core service, this deal is dead.

3.) Another USAir/AWA...this is also very likely. You SWA guys just cannot get off your high horse. When are too many stables enough? Bad karma is about to catch up to you.

Protecting ones career and family is not being on a high horse. If this resembles anything like US/AWA, these groups will not be one.

The bottom line that sums up this SLI is that the AT pilots love this opportunity and the SWA pilots want it to go away. But the AT pilots on this board just don't get why the SWA pilots want to guard their own turf. The career expectations for the AT guys just got a tremendous boost. SWA pilots on the other hand will have lower career expectations or seeing someone have more seniority than they do with 17 years less dedicated time in service. That is like someone cutting in line in front of you. A line you have been waiting in for 33 years.

SWA pilots understand how the AT pilots feel and the opportunity that lies in front of them. We think the AT guys don't give a crap what our legitimate concerns are and yet they will be working under a much better contract and relationship with management that has bee forged for close to 40 years. I speak for SWA pilot group that it appears that the AT pilots just don't respect the opportunity we are giving them. SWA management didn't give us our working conditions, we ALL earned them. A little respect and understanding would go a long ways at this point.


[/FONT]

 

[texman]

I just hope the AT guys are great full for AM and B/M just like I am. Because with out it, hate to say it it's just business.

 

[737tanker]

The flight attendants at 10,000 strong are now and I quote "are beginning to freak out" about this integration. These two SWA groups DO NOT want this integration.

It is not just the pilot's and F/As that don't want this it is the mechanics as well. So that is 3 of the biggest unions at SWA that has major concerns about this acquisition.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Hey Snoop D O Double G you and the other pilots over there at SWA aren't giving us Airtran pilots anything. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. So stop with the sniveling about our not "respecting the opportunity you are giving us." You sound like a spoiled child. It is undignified and unbecoming.

There is absolutely no evidence to support yours and others claims that any of the likely SLI outcomes will in any way delay an upgrade opportunity or diminish at all anyones career expectations. All speculation and conjecture not backed up with a shred of verifiable data.

You call for "a little respect and understanding." Well that is a two way street cuz and thus far based on the inflammatory nature of the things you've said in this thread and others you are deserving of neither.

Thankfully your laughable claim to "speak for" the pilots at SWA is far from the case and in the end the grown ups will hash this out.

 

[roughneck]

pilots over there at SWA aren't giving us Airtran pilots anything. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

You are clueless if you think our pilots are not giving you anything.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

We are like spoiled children, we are not deserving of respect or understanding, and our claims laughable that us children will have the grownups hash it out....

These responses absolutely further inflames a dicey situation. In a casual conversation with an assistant chief, he asked what I thought of the purchase and I asked him what have others been saying. He said although this may be good for the profit margin, largely he is concerned about what he is hearing about what the Airtran pilots are saying and hopes that Gary is listening.

This is what I guess would be "unverifiable data". When half of your unionized work force is not supporting this purchase, I know our highly respectable executives will take pause and say, is this worth it? Or, is there a way around this without frustrating at least half of our core work group?

This is a business before it is our careers.

Call us what ever you want. This is who we are. You don't like it maybe you should start looking for a place you will feel like more of a fit. You will be miserable here at our company if you can't understand or respect our concerns of outsiders coming in.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thankfully your laughable claim to "speak for" the pilots at SWA is far from the case and in the end the grown ups will hash this out.

Man, ain't that the truth! I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. . . . Some of the SWA guys on here are even claiming to speak for the mechanics now. . . :laugh:

 

[ivauir]

Hey Snoop D O Double G you and the other pilots over there at SWA aren't giving us Airtran pilots anything. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Cool.

Keep your contract then.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

You are clueless if you think our pilots are not giving you anything.

Help me understand then oh wise and benevolent one.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

Man, ain't that the truth! I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. . . . Some of the SWA guys on here are even claiming to speak for the mechanics now. . . :laugh:

I can say that the mechanics are as concerned as the pilots and flight attendants. That is what the two, three or four mechanics that I see every trip say about what their work group is talking about.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

Help me understand then oh wise and benevolent one.

Our pilot group does have the power to not include you in our contract. And our scope language keeps Southwest from code sharing with your airline.

Ponder that.

 

[Ty Webb]

Our pilot group does have the power to not include you in our contract. And our scope language keeps Southwest from code sharing with your airline.

Ponder that.

If you believe what you have written, you don't understand the process. Whatever, buddy. It's not my job to educate you.

See you on the other side, and we can resume this conversation then.

 

[roughneck]

Ty,

You will get the Swapa contract when Swapa and SWA decide you will get it. Not a second before. Not even an arbitrator can give you our contract without Swapa and SWA deciding to give it to you. Enjoy your contract, we will enjoy ours.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

If you believe what you have written, you don't understand the process. Whatever, buddy. It's not my job to educate you.

See you on the other side, and we can resume this conversation then.

Oh wise one, you are soooooo misinformed. There is absolutely NO requirement to have you on a SWAPA seniority list. We can easily allow the company (transition agreement with SWAPA and SWA) to operate Airtran separately. And being the acquired company, likely the courts will decide what will happen to you. We as a union legally do not require you to be members. And if you don't understand this, keep on living in your own "flat earth society".

Ty, there are now stickers at SWA that has your name with circle/slash to show the displeasure of this purchase. You are becoming infamous in a Lee Harvey Oswald kind of way.

 

[gt1900]

I think its a two way street, and everyone needs to realize that. Is the SWA contract good, absolutely. But the AAI guys also have some resentment that our bargaining power was taken away from us, and we didn't get the contract we deserved because of it. If this deal falls through, then trust me, there will be uproar over our contract (not that there isn't enough already) that we signed. So ya, the AAI guys want this to go through, we all bet our current contract on it. It is also not the end all be all. This merger has already most likely cost me my upgrade, and that WILL cost me money over the next 5-10 years. Nobody can say for sure what would have happened in 15-20 years, just because SWA has a better contract now, doesn't mean they would have always had a better contract. WHo knows, AMR could have bought AAI, or AAI could have merged with ALA. There are many different scenerios that would have eventually played out. And remember, up until about 10 years ago, SWA was one of the bottom feeders as far as contract's go. The SWA guys also need to realize that you are hiring again because of the growth opportunities that AAI brings. That is a good thing for both pilot groups. This slows down upgrade times for AAI guys, and starts movement again for the SWA guys. Yes, the AAI guys are getting the better deal, but not if we get stapled. Hopefully, there will be a happy median between both pilot groups, and nobody will have a windfall.

 

[roughneck]

Yes, the AAI guys are getting the better deal, but not if we get staple

Not true. My domicile rep says they were briefed by an outside consultant and that even a staple gives every pilot on your seniority list an increase in career earnings when the payrates, rigs, and retirement are factored in.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

We are like spoiled children, we are not deserving of respect or understanding, and our claims laughable that us children will have the grownups hash it out....

These responses absolutely further inflames a dicey situation.....

Wrong again Dogg. Reread my post. It was directed specifically at you and I stand by my comments. As for what my response inflames, maybe you should take a good look in the mirror about the tone of your statements before you lecture me about stirring the pot.

 

[MILPILOT17]

Help me understand then oh wise and benevolent one.

It's simple; your company was purchased by SWA. If not for a law passed by congress to protect the weak you would be hitting the street. Happens every day in America. Hope that clears things up?

 

[Ty Webb]

Oh wise one, you are soooooo misinformed. There is absolutely NO requirement to have you on a SWAPA seniority list.

Nothing but Bond-McCaskill . . . , :erm: plus our CBA, which your management is a party to, as of DOCC. Not to mention the fact that only an idiot would want a quarter of their pilot group to be non-union.

So, I guess you could say that, other than Federal Law, our Contract, the RLA, and common sense, no, there's no requirement to have us on your seniority list.

Anyone else feel like they're just wasting their time trying to explain this stuff?

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Cool.

Keep your contract then.

It would not be the end of the world. I'm doing fine.
Let's be clear about what I was saying. Clearly your contract is better than ours and I will be glad to work under it too just as I am our current CBA. What I was getting at is that you and SWAPA are not "giving" us that or anything else for that matter. Your management (soon to be our management) will negotiate a new CBA with all of us.