AirTran pilots will own the SW upgrades

[PCL_128]

I agree that a 10% increase in total compensation is reasonable and achievable, as long as you're not trying to do it with rates. Hell, you should be able to achieve half of that with just retirement. I just don't think your pilot group is as understanding as you are about the rate component. We got caught with our pants down at AirTran during bargaining because our pilots got stuck on this "Alaska plus" idea, and the NMB simply wasn't willing to entertain Alaska pay rates for us in the first year of the new contract. I know you don't like the "manage expectation" mantra, but that really is what SWAPA needs to do.

 

[Roomwithaview]

You're now near the top of the heap because everyone else took that fall, so you're in the same world as everyone else in traditional bargaining. You can't ride any coattails of the legacies. You either generate leverage for yourself, or you accept that there won't be any significant raises. And from what I've seen, there just aren't any SWA pilots who are willing to do what it takes to generate leverage. They're all too busy drinking the kool aid and talking about what a swell guy Gary is.

The most honest thing I've ever seen you write. That nails it in a nut shell.

Then this:

Even that's not enough. You need to be willing to embarrass the company. That's the only thing that will make them sit up and take notice. Until hundreds of SWA pilots are willing to show up to the airport and get photographed by both management and the press while walking around in circles holding up signs that paint SWA in a bad light, they'll get nowhere on getting a significant raise.

IMHO the VAST majority here don't have the stomach for it. Hence Sideletters 1 thru 18 where we gave every ounce of leverage we had away with all the koolies on the BOD telling us, "Gary will take care of us in Section Six".

There ain't much that I can agree with PCL on but the reality of where we are is right in those two post and many here are going to have to decide if they're ready to pull their big boy pants on when they come to work.

 

[redflyer65]

I agree that a 10% increase in total compensation is reasonable and achievable, as long as you're not trying to do it with rates. Hell, you should be able to achieve half of that with just retirement. I just don't think your pilot group is as understanding as you are about the rate component. We got caught with our pants down at AirTran during bargaining because our pilots got stuck on this "Alaska plus" idea, and the NMB simply wasn't willing to entertain Alaska pay rates for us in the first year of the new contract. I know you don't like the "manage expectation" mantra, but that really is what SWAPA needs to do.

PCL,

I'd like to admit that's a good post. We are going for 10% across the board, spread out on retirement, reserve and rates. It may be a long road to get there, but I don't see this NC caving and sending us some half ass deal. They have a very solid idea what will make it out of the negotiating room. So even the koolaid drinkers won't have a chance to vote on a POS.

 

[fr8doggie]

PCL,

I'd like to admit that's a good post. We are going for 10% across the board, spread out on retirement, reserve and rates. It may be a long road to get there, but I don't see this NC caving and sending us some half ass deal. They have a very solid idea what will make it out of the negotiating room. So even the koolaid drinkers won't have a chance to vote on a POS.

If that's true and you aren't willing to bring the pain you will be negotiating for a very long time.

 

[PCL_128]

If that's true and you aren't willing to bring the pain you will be negotiating for a very long time.

Yep. Refusing to bring out a bad TA is all well and good, but unless you're willing to do something to force a good TA, you'll just sit around for an eternity in bargaining, because the NMB certainly won't help.

 

[HowardBorden]

I agree that a 10% increase in total compensation is reasonable and achievable, as long as you're not trying to do it with rates. Hell, you should be able to achieve half of that with just retirement. I just don't think your pilot group is as understanding as you are about the rate component. We got caught with our pants down at AirTran during bargaining because our pilots got stuck on this "Alaska plus" idea, and the NMB simply wasn't willing to entertain Alaska pay rates for us in the first year of the new contract. I know you don't like the "manage expectation" mantra, but that really is what SWAPA needs to do.

I agree with all but the manage expectations line. I am hoping everyone has huge expectations and will vote down anything that does not meet them. Here at SWA we don't need any help "managing expectations" we as a collective group do plenty of that for ourselves and don't need any help from the union telling us to set our sights low.

Even that's not enough. You need to be willing to embarrass the company. That's the only thing that will make them sit up and take notice. Until hundreds of SWA pilots are willing to show up to the airport and get photographed by both management and the press while walking around in circles holding up signs that paint SWA in a bad light, they'll get nowhere on getting a significant raise.

SWA is very savvy on the marketing front. Trying to embarrass them is a bad move all together. Pilots picketing or any group for that master is not necessarily an embarrassment. Picketing gives the spin machine the chance to go into overdrive and paint us as overpaid union workers making way too much for all too little work. I'm not saying picketing is never needed, it is most definitely. But trying to match wits with our marketing department may place SWAPA in way over their head. If and when we hit mediation with no significant movement I say bring it on, but for now I'm comfortable with negotiation they seem to be making headway as of late.

 

[PCL_128]

SWAPA in way over their head

Well, we finally agree on something.

 

[Flycatcher99]

IMHO the VAST majority here don't have the stomach for it. Hence Sideletters 1 thru 18 where we gave every ounce of leverage we had away with all the koolies on the BOD telling us, "Gary will take care of us in Section Six".

There ain't much that I can agree with PCL on but the reality of where we are is right in those two post and many here are going to have to decide if they're ready to pull their big boy pants on when they come to work.

I also agree with PCL. (First time for everything, I guess.) I'm hardly a koolaid drinker, but I think many over here refuse to see the forest for the trees. Worker earnings are down all over, and not just in the airlines. The economy frankly has not recovered from the recession (gee, thanks Barry), despite what the market is doing. Not to the extent that wages are close to keeping up with inflation.

It's not going to be easy to eek out even a COLA adjustment, when the meager 10% SWAPA is asking for ($170 million adjustment on a $1.5 billion dollar existing package) is over 10% of the profits seen by the company in a year. I disagree with those who think the pilots have leverage. The leverage was given up with side letters giving no pay increases for int'l and -800's. (The former was the one that really irked me.) Embarrass the company? I doubt it. Not many here really want to do that, IMHO, at least not to get more than what SWAPA was seeking. To be sure, there are a few out there screaming for COLA+whatever, but it looks kind of ridiculous when 1% per year gets us back to industry leading.

 

[HowardBorden]

Well, we finally agree on something.

And yet, they left you looking foolish and out maneuvered.

 

[jonjuan]

And yet, they left you looking foolish and out maneuvered.

Nope-lack of testosterone by the pilots who voted did that.

 

[HowardBorden]

Nope-lack of testosterone by the pilots who voted did that.

A little more truth and a lot less "managed expectations" would have gone a long way, but alas, that is not the ALPA way.

 

[madjack]

There was truth but the "geniuses" new better...perhaps the greatest example of hubris and failure to represent in airline union history...PCL and his band were in the middle of it all...

 

[Double Shot]

Hey PCL
When is your last day...I seem to have forgot.

 

[PCL_128]

And yet, they left you looking foolish and out maneuvered.

Howie, even if I really am who everyone around here thinks I am, then I wasn't involved by the time the SLI came around. No one at SWAPA "out maneuvered" me. But I'll definitely say that SWAPA outmaneuvered the inexperienced AirTran Merger Committee and MEC. But that's not exactly an impressive feat.

 

[humveedriver]

There was truth but the "geniuses" new better...perhaps the greatest example of hubris and failure to represent in airline union history...PCL and his band were in the middle of it all...

PCL was removed when he began to question the authority of the merger committee. Just for the record The first offer sucked for both groups for a number of reasons. The second offer sucked for both groups. 84% figured offer number 3 wasn't going to get any better. AirTran pilots who bitch the loudest expected seniority, pay and seat protection.SWA was only willing to work with pay and seat language. Hence no one happy.