AirTran pilots will own the SW upgrades

[Luv2BFlyin]

And yet you had NO justification of it a AirTran. Why is that?

It took 33 years for WN to catch up to the majors in pay and you're throwing stones at FL for not doing it in 17?

 

[redflyer65]

It took 33 years for WN to catch up to the majors in pay and you're throwing stones at FL for not doing it in 17?

Luv,

I'm out brother. Time for some single malt.

 

[redflyer65]

Well, yes, in fact. Us vs. them is fine for the businessmen. It's not fine when labor negotiations involve pattern bargaining. Allowing your management to succeed on your back is never okay.

And Herb followed through on his plan, you get that right? Complete success. They both won....wildly. The company and the pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

And Herb followed through on his plan, you get that right? Complete success. They both one....wildly. The company and the pilots.

I keep forgetting that I'm talking to the biggest dolt to ever wear a pilot uniform. One who can't even remember the difference between "one" and "won." You waste my time, mental midget.

 

[redflyer65]

I changed the typo for you Fat Boy, thanks for the help. If you need help with those College classes just let me know. I know plenty of AirTran guys that can't wait to see you hit the road.....and that's one thing I can definitely agree with them on! :laugh:

 

[humveedriver]

Take SW. Your right, sometimes they don't hire people for whatever reason. What if you interviewed again, and maybe again (number 3) and get hired? Fate or effort?

I think making people interview for a job three times "just to see if you want it bad enough" is BS. Is this a parole board or something? Oh thanks for hiring me 18 months later I really enjoyed the stress and loss of potential seniority. I realize for some it's a badge of honor. I just don't know why you hire someone after telling them no twice. Unless you saw potential the first time and should have given them their shot. I'm sure there is more to it. But I probably still wouldn't like the reasoning. Anyone can have a bad day or interview. But two bad days? That's probably a sign.

 

[HowardBorden]

Wrong. A contract was ratified that included down-line pay raises, but those big raises didn't come until several years later. SWA never hit pre-9/11 legacy rates (still hasn't, in fact), and only bypassed the legacies finally when they went into bankruptcy and took massive concessions.

Allow me to repeat that: today, 15 years later, SWA has STILL not hit pre-9/11 legacy narrowbody rates. You have absolutely nothing to be proud of. Period.

Let me repeat it for you: I didn't work here when the rates were lower! I came here when the rates and the contract rigs and benefits were INDUSTRY LEADING.

I chose an airline that hasn't needed to hit the reset button through bankruptcy. I chose to come to an airline that had the highest narrow body rates in the passenger industry. As a matter of fact, I still work for the carrier with the best 737 rates. Our 737 rates are eclipsed by one narrow body airframe at the legacies, the 757 at Delta. That rate is the same for the wide body 767 at Delta. As a matter fact our 737 rates are better than multiple wide body rates at many legacies. Better than the united 767 rate. Better than the 767 at American. Better than the A330 rate at Hawaiian. So, please tell me where I went wrong?

You made a different career choice than I and I won't try and second guess your choice. You chose an airline where the rates were low but certainly had potential to improve. I chose an airline that had the best rates in the industry. AT rates weren't low because they were dragged through BK, they were lower because of a myriad of other reasons, yet you made a choice to go there anyway. Good for you, I'm sure you had plenty of good reasons for your choice. However, to berate me for a choice to join an airline with an industry leading contract is laughable at best. AT had the ability and the promise to reach industry leading someday, but SWA was already there when I joined on. There is a difference.

 

[PCL_128]

Howard, you miss my point. I don't fault you for going to work for SWA. Hell, I don't even fault that idiot redflyer. What I fault red for is justifying the crappy pay rates that were a drag on collective bargaining for three decades and contributed to where pay rates ended up in the bankruptcy era. So as long as you aren't joining red in the excuses, then I have no beef with you, so stop defending yourself from an attack that hasn't taken place.

 

[HowardBorden]

Howard, you miss my point. I don't fault you for going to work for SWA. Hell, I don't even fault that idiot redflyer. What I fault red for is justifying the crappy pay rates that were a drag on collective bargaining for three decades and contributed to where pay rates ended up in the bankruptcy era. So as long as you aren't joining red in the excuses, then I have no beef with you, so stop defending yourself from an attack that hasn't taken place.

It seems to be a continuous pattern by you and many others in which you fault SWA for the failings of other management teams and union leadership. I can't even attempt to explain or justify something that happened long before my tenure with the company. I had no vote, I had no voice and I have no justification to second guess the reasons or rationales for the decisions that were made at SWA or any other carrier.

You are passing judgements on individuals making decisions and career moves long before you even considered or were old enough to enter this industry. Why don't you sit back and relax and stop passing judgement on how others who made decisions for themselves and their families at the cross roads of their own careers. Hindsight truly is 20/20. Why don't you focus on your own decisions without casting aspersions on those that came before you. Everyone has reasons for what they did when they did it. If you weren't there you simply are unqualified to second guess them.

For the record, I understand how easy it is to pass judgements on others decisions, I am guilty of it myself. We would all be better served if we kept our judgements about others decisions to ourselves, confidant that we were not there at the time and can not ever truly understand how those decisions were made and for what reasons.

 

[PCL_128]

Nice sidestep, but the decisions of leaders are always up for debate.

 

[HowardBorden]

Nice sidestep, but the decisions of leaders are always up for debate.

That may be true, but in union politics at least, those decisions made by leaders are put to the test through membership ratification votes. The membership itself (at least in most cases) gets to weigh in on the decisions made by the leadership through their own vote. That is how our own little mini republics work. We can't reasonably understand how and why individuals vote the way they do, but we can speculate that those decisions were made for reasons justifiable to the individual.

 

[bluesideup1]

Holding up stock options as justification for horrendous pay is just further proof that the SWA guys of old didn't give a flying you-know-what about the profession. Stock options in lieu of pay do nothing to raise the bar. In fact, they do the exact opposite.

Strong talk from a value jet guy. Haven't your pay rates been significantly less than ours for your entire airlines existence? I don't see how you can actually with a straight face complain that SWA pilots were bringing down the industry while Value jet/airtran has never lead the way in anything when it comes to contractual gains.

 

[PCL_128]

That may be true, but in union politics at least, those decisions made by leaders are put to the test through membership ratification votes. The membership itself (at least in most cases) gets to weigh in on the decisions made by the leadership through their own vote. That is how our own little mini republics work. We can't reasonably understand how and why individuals vote the way they do, but we can speculate that those decisions were made for reasons justifiable to the individual.

It's not enough that decisions be justifiable to an individual, or even an individual pilot group. Those decisions need to be justifiable in light of the entire profession.

 

[Ty Webb]

Strong talk from a value jet guy. Haven't your pay rates been significantly less than ours for your entire airlines existence? I don't see how you can actually with a straight face complain that SWA pilots were bringing down the industry while Value jet/airtran has never lead the way in anything when it comes to contractual gains.

If you can find a copy of your 2001 contract to compare to our 2001 rates, you might be surprised.

 

[twepilot]

"Those decisions need to be justifiable in light of the entire profession. "
Dude, you are living in LaLa Land.

RV