AirTran pilots will own the SW upgrades

[fr8doggie]

You see, Howard? This is what I'm talking about. wavey is exactly the kind of delusional mind you're dealing with over there who thinks that not only is he entitled to a 10% raise, but that it's actually possible.

wavey, you talk of ideology when realism is all that matters. Realistically, what you think you deserve is not achievable. The NMB isn't going to help you get what you want. So the only way for you to get it is to hammer the company (picketing, billboards, newspaper ads, etc.), which you clearly are unwilling to do. So you have no realistic way of achieving what you want. Get real!

But they have "leverage"!

 

[waveflyer]

Well pcl,
When you get real, you end up overweight and buying your first job-

Not to throw daggers, but .... You are basically saying in a warming up global pilot shortage where college kids are choosing other professions instead of flying bc it's not worth it that we can't get a cost of living adjustment?

You are absolutely right that there are other areas we can and should address, but as a business man- I can promise you this-
Swa knows how much money it outlays to Swapa- they do not care what form that money is laid out in. It's all out of the coffers and into our hands whether it goes to more pilots for better reserve rules, or better retirement, or better work rules

To that end, I'm not sure I care about the rate either as long as my w2 gets bigger.
But to say 10% is unrealistic when we've been flat over many many years and have no stock mechanism to truly capture the value we've given towards this 17% and a $billion dollar year is just as naive

If I'm the problem bc of where my yes vote stands- that's alright.
Just try and remember PCL's expectations have been a lot less lined up with reality most of his career so...

 

[PCL_128]

wave, you just don't know what you're talking about. It's as simple as that. So you resort to name calling and insults since you can't address reality. Sorry, but you'll learn the hard way.

 

[Flycatcher99]

No, you just don't listen. It doesn't matter what the union's "stated goal" is if the membership isn't falling in line with it. We get a lot of SWA jumpseaters and nonrevs. And I don't think I've heard a single one of them think that the $3/hr increase that you're talking about would be acceptable. The membership is living in a fantasy world where they're entitled to a 10% pay raise. This is going to bite you in the ass big time. Count on it.

I don't disagree with your prediction, PCL. What I find interesting though is that you still like to badmouth SWA's payrates, like the union thug that you've labeled yourself. This is from one of your earlier posts:

"Allow me to repeat that: today, 15 years later, SWA has STILL not hit pre-9/11 legacy narrowbody rates. You have absolutely nothing to be proud of. Period."

So which is it? Do you think pilots should burn SWA looking for better than 1% raises with the same union thug mentality that you used in the quote above? Or do the pilots accept the nature of the beast and adjust expectations to a much more modest level?

I'm confused!

 

[PCL_128]

Flycatcher, you shouldn't be confused. I'm not criticizing SWAPA's pay rates. They're pretty damned good for today's world, in fact. But the post you quote was responding to SWA pilots who wanted to brag about those rates, and there's nothing to brag about. Your rates are only industry leading (or close to it) because everyone else took a fall in bankruptcy, not because you were such awesome hard-nosed negotiators.

And that brings us to the conversation from the last few posts. Things have changed. You're now near the top of the heap because everyone else took that fall, so you're in the same world as everyone else in traditional bargaining. You can't ride any coattails of the legacies. You either generate leverage for yourself, or you accept that there won't be any significant raises. And from what I've seen, there just aren't any SWA pilots who are willing to do what it takes to generate leverage. They're all too busy drinking the kool aid and talking about what a swell guy Gary is.

 

[waveflyer]

wave, you just don't know what you're talking about. It's as simple as that. So you resort to name calling and insults since you can't address reality. Sorry, but you'll learn the hard way.

Yes, it will be so difficult to keep being me

 

[waveflyer]

I disagree with your last sentence above pcl

There is leverage and we can and will generate it if and when we need to.

You sit over at air tran and claim to "know" what Swapa pilots think-
How about you get uber opinionated after youve transitioned

 

[fr8doggie]

I disagree with your last sentence above pcl

There is leverage and we can and will generate it if and when we need to.

You sit over at air tran and claim to "know" what Swapa pilots think-
How about you get uber opinionated after youve transitioned

Wave: What is your leverage and how will you exercise it?

 

[waveflyer]

You'll see

 

[redflyer65]

Wow. I've never seen this many Non-SW guys interested in what our union is doing and what it has up it's sleeve.

I'll agree we aren't the most militant group, but I see bright spots for leverage if SWAPA has the balls to deploy it. And at the rate the company is moving that might actually be a possibility.

I agree with Wave, wait and see.

 

[fr8doggie]

You'll see

Oohhh. It's a big secret. OK then.

Truly, I hope you get significant gains. I doubt you'll get them unless you "bring the pain". I'm not talking strike.

 

[PCL_128]

You'll see

Ha! Sort of like President Nixon's "secret plan" to get out of Vietnam, huh? You do make me laugh, wavey.

 

[humveedriver]

I disagree with your last sentence above pcl

There is leverage and we can and will generate it if and when we need to.

You sit over at air tran and claim to "know" what Swapa pilots think-
How about you get uber opinionated after youve transitioned

I don't look at pprune, swapa forum or jetway talk as a valid test for what pilots are willing to do. When flights start getting cancelled and the only way any open gets picked up is through premium, then I would say the pilot group has found it's voice.

 

[PCL_128]

Even that's not enough. You need to be willing to embarrass the company. That's the only thing that will make them sit up and take notice. Until hundreds of SWA pilots are willing to show up to the airport and get photographed by both management and the press while walking around in circles holding up signs that paint SWA in a bad light, they'll get nowhere on getting a significant raise.

 

[HowardBorden]

You see, Howard? This is what I'm talking about. wavey is exactly the kind of delusional mind you're dealing with over there who thinks that not only is he entitled to a 10% raise, but that it's actually possible.

I'm expecting close to that, I'm just not expecting it all to be in the form of hourly rate raise. I think a 10% raise in my compensation package is easily achievable throughout the next contract. When I'm talking raise I'm not so naive that I expect it all in the form of an hourly pay rate increase. In the end my only barometer is my total compensation package. If my W2 grows I am not really concerned with exactly how we got there.

We are producing record profits. We have achieved 2.1% over the coveted ROIC that our fearless leader has been chasing for a decade. The company is currently moving off its "flattish" contract stance. Investors are getting restless with 8 union contracts in negotiations. The time is now to reward those that have given so much to allow this company to achieve its goals. Increases will come.

 

[PCL_128]

I agree that a 10% increase in total compensation is reasonable and achievable, as long as you're not trying to do it with rates. Hell, you should be able to achieve half of that with just retirement. I just don't think your pilot group is as understanding as you are about the rate component. We got caught with our pants down at AirTran during bargaining because our pilots got stuck on this "Alaska plus" idea, and the NMB simply wasn't willing to entertain Alaska pay rates for us in the first year of the new contract. I know you don't like the "manage expectation" mantra, but that really is what SWAPA needs to do.

 

[Roomwithaview]

You're now near the top of the heap because everyone else took that fall, so you're in the same world as everyone else in traditional bargaining. You can't ride any coattails of the legacies. You either generate leverage for yourself, or you accept that there won't be any significant raises. And from what I've seen, there just aren't any SWA pilots who are willing to do what it takes to generate leverage. They're all too busy drinking the kool aid and talking about what a swell guy Gary is.

The most honest thing I've ever seen you write. That nails it in a nut shell.

Then this:

Even that's not enough. You need to be willing to embarrass the company. That's the only thing that will make them sit up and take notice. Until hundreds of SWA pilots are willing to show up to the airport and get photographed by both management and the press while walking around in circles holding up signs that paint SWA in a bad light, they'll get nowhere on getting a significant raise.

IMHO the VAST majority here don't have the stomach for it. Hence Sideletters 1 thru 18 where we gave every ounce of leverage we had away with all the koolies on the BOD telling us, "Gary will take care of us in Section Six".

There ain't much that I can agree with PCL on but the reality of where we are is right in those two post and many here are going to have to decide if they're ready to pull their big boy pants on when they come to work.

 

[redflyer65]

I agree that a 10% increase in total compensation is reasonable and achievable, as long as you're not trying to do it with rates. Hell, you should be able to achieve half of that with just retirement. I just don't think your pilot group is as understanding as you are about the rate component. We got caught with our pants down at AirTran during bargaining because our pilots got stuck on this "Alaska plus" idea, and the NMB simply wasn't willing to entertain Alaska pay rates for us in the first year of the new contract. I know you don't like the "manage expectation" mantra, but that really is what SWAPA needs to do.

PCL,

I'd like to admit that's a good post. We are going for 10% across the board, spread out on retirement, reserve and rates. It may be a long road to get there, but I don't see this NC caving and sending us some half ass deal. They have a very solid idea what will make it out of the negotiating room. So even the koolaid drinkers won't have a chance to vote on a POS.

 

[fr8doggie]

PCL,

I'd like to admit that's a good post. We are going for 10% across the board, spread out on retirement, reserve and rates. It may be a long road to get there, but I don't see this NC caving and sending us some half ass deal. They have a very solid idea what will make it out of the negotiating room. So even the koolaid drinkers won't have a chance to vote on a POS.

If that's true and you aren't willing to bring the pain you will be negotiating for a very long time.

 

[PCL_128]

If that's true and you aren't willing to bring the pain you will be negotiating for a very long time.

Yep. Refusing to bring out a bad TA is all well and good, but unless you're willing to do something to force a good TA, you'll just sit around for an eternity in bargaining, because the NMB certainly won't help.