Airtran Pilots Want ALPA=WHY?

[Ty Webb]

Pilots flying for Airtransvestite hate being called Valujet.

"Air Transvestite", wow! Did you think of that yourself? I'm sure my teenage son will think it's hilarious!

Airtan is still Valujet.

Yawn . . . . Valujet was over 12 years ago . . . . I get the distinct impression that you weren't even driving then.

 

[MINIME]

As some have mentioned, your union whatever it is, is only as good as the people you elect. Get informed, ask the tough questions, check backgrounds, eliminate company sympathizers, eliminate immaturity, eliminate management wannabes, and beware of the people that always stand in the way of progress. These people will most likely not want Alpa, nor will they support your current union. Nothing will stand in the way of a better contract more than these people. Not even your management.

Alpa is not some golden knight that will save your day. They will however, bring lots of resources that if utilized correctly, can and will improve your bargaining power. Alpa National cannot force you to sign on to something that your pilot group feels is inadequate. They'll apply pressure, but they cannot force you. Since you are being courted by Alpa, I would suggest getting assurances in writing if you are not sure.

Regardless, I think that the AirTran guys want a better contract and they appear to be ready to go out there and get it. They just need the leadership and resources to do it. If you elect to go with Alpa, hopefully they can piece the last part of that puzzle for you.

 

[BeCareful!]

See, you are beginning to show your ignorance! I was a member of ALPA at a major carrier. I know what ALPA is all about. ALPA is not perfect and will not solve all of our problems. ALPA has more resources to offer than our current in house union. By the way, been to one of the roadshows as I mentioned above and they have answered a lot of questions the gentleman above has been asking.

No, in fact I don't "see" anything but your ignorance, but that is the nature of Internet keyboard commando operations. I wasn't aware it was a contest, but I've been an ALPA member at three different carriers since 1995....two regional and one major. But, in your world I guess that doesn't qualify me to comment. Your loss.

AirTranny has done better on its own than ALPA could have done for it....guarantee it! Just wait 'till something you want to do conflicts with the interests of DAL Suddenly, you'll get a sinking feeling that your dues money is being spent on someone else. Until then, just look at what a fat ass Prater has.....that should also give you a clue about how much godd@mn money that guy is raking in. But look out, look carefully, because he practices saying "I feel your pain" EVERY SINGLE WAKING MORNING, so he's pretty good at keeping you under the ALPA spell. Hey, it works on Rez, and it seems to already be working on you. You are attacking well-meaning detractors here on FI.com, labeling them as ignorant, etc.

Actually, that pretty much indicates you are cut out for ALPA. Enjoy the pony ride.

 

[Eagle757shark]

No, in fact I don't "see" anything but your ignorance, but that is the nature of Internet keyboard commando operations. I wasn't aware it was a contest, but I've been an ALPA member at three different carriers since 1995....two regional and one major. But, in your world I guess that doesn't qualify me to comment. Your loss.

AirTranny has done better on its own than ALPA could have done for it....guarantee it! Just wait 'till something you want to do conflicts with the interests of DAL Suddenly, you'll get a sinking feeling that your dues money is being spent on someone else. Until then, just look at what a fat ass Prater has.....that should also give you a clue about how much godd@mn money that guy is raking in. But look out, look carefully, because he practices saying "I feel your pain" EVERY SINGLE WAKING MORNING, so he's pretty good at keeping you under the ALPA spell. Hey, it works on Rez, and it seems to already be working on you. You are attacking well-meaning detractors here on FI.com, labeling them as ignorant, etc.

Actually, that pretty much indicates you are cut out for ALPA. Enjoy the pony ride.

I question your reading comprehension! Myself and my fellow AirTran pilots were trying to tell "Scarlet" to go to the informational road shows to get his questions answered. The questions he had were addressed at the road shows and that is all I was responding to. Because you failed to comprehend that, you decided to go on some rant about how I would be sorry about an organization I've been a member of in the past. First of all, I wasn't telling this individual how to vote. I was just stating like many others in this thread, get to a road show and your questions will be answered. He may or may not like the answers, but it is better than coming on here and ranting about stuff that can easily be answered. Everyone has the right to evaluate, get informed, and make a decision. You are attempting to make this about you and why you hate ALPA. Let me tell you now, I don't care where you come from or how you feel about ALPA. A union is only as good as the participation of its members. NO UNION in recent memory made bad fuel hedges, picked a route, picked a airplane, or filed for bankruptcy. As much as you proclaim not to like ALPA, I say with confidence the pilots that went through these issues above would not of wanted to without union representation.

 

[BeCareful!]

So, you didn't say "See, you are beginning to show your ignorance!" ????

Ha! Yeah, questioning a guy's ability to read is an old ALPA trick. You'll fit right in, dude....and yeah, everything they say at the roadshows, including those precious "answers" you've been directing your friend to obtain, yeah, it's all the truth...whole grain, unbleached truthy ALPA truth.

 

[Britpilot]

So, you didn't say "See, you are beginning to show your ignorance!" ????

Ha! Yeah, questioning a guy's ability to read is an old ALPA trick. You'll fit right in, dude....and yeah, everything they say at the roadshows, including those precious "answers" you've been directing your friend to obtain, yeah, it's all the truth...whole grain, unbleached truthy ALPA truth.

Careful, watch out for the black helicopter that's following you.

The pilots of AirTran have two choices;
Vote yes to ALPA or
Vote yes to NPA.

Just have to make an informed decision without all the emotion. Simple.

 

[eaglesview]

Everyone cares what you think TY!!!

So the question was ALPA WHY, and the 3 million in the bank goes where? STILL NO ANSWER ??

Just typical Americans, believe in something but can not answer the major questions.
ASK
MESA you guys happy with ALPA
USAIR=already answered
TWA guys were you guys happy how ALPA helped you?
CAL=how is that PRATER Contract?
DAL=how Sen. work out/RJ give away?
United=HAppy with ALpA?
Pinnacle=Happy with ALPA? how long now no contract?
ASA=Happy with ALPA
COMAIR=I think we know=Happy?

It is a VALID question !!

I can answer the one concerning United...Not only no but Hell no. Worthless union isn't even sure who they represent.

 

[PCL_128]

Scarlet, you need to get to a road show. But to answer your question, the $3 million would stay in our own MEC accounts.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Air Tran will be a welcome addition to ALPA. And AT pilots will immediately benefit from all the resources of the strongest National PILOT Union in the U.S.

Benefits for ALPA? More dues coming in.

Benefits for AT? They get to join the other disillusioned ALPA pilots.

 

[Guppy Guy]

So, since everyone on here seems to have all the answers. What should we do? The NPA has proven to be ineffective and incapable of protecting the pilots at AT. We've been without a new contract for four years now and our pilots seem to have no leverage with the company and minimal job protection. We've tried to fix the NPA on numerous occasions going so far as to throw out our old leadership and put someone in who was supposed to "be tough" with management. It didn't work. So do we continue down a path that is getting us no where or do we seek a new direction? The choices are:

1) Keep the NPA and try to fix it (which doesn't seem to be working)
or
2) Find a new union that can possibly help us.(ALPA with all its' baggage)

If we vote in ALPA and they do nothing for us what have we lost? If we keep the NPA and they do nothing for us what have we gained? What's the worst thing that could happen to us if we went with ALPA and could the NPA do any better (like merger protection)?

There is no perfect solution to this problem. It comes down to NPA vs ALPA and who can do a better job for us. The NPA has shown us what they can do for us. ALPA has told us what they can do for us. We won't know for sure unless we vote them in. Their track record is spotty. They have done some great things for this industry over the years. They have also done some horrible things to this industry over the years. Remember, past results do not indicate future success, or failure.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The NPA has proven to be ineffective and incapable of protecting the pilots at AT.

Is there any SOLID assurance (Aside from what the ALPA officers tell you) that ALPA will be able to protect the pilots at AT?

We've been without a new contract for four years now and our pilots seem to have no leverage with the company and minimal job protection.

Is there a guarantee that ALPA will get you a new contract, give you leverage, and protect jobs?

We've tried to fix the NPA on numerous occasions going so far as to throw out our old leadership and put someone in who was supposed to "be tough" with management. It didn't work. So do we continue down a path that is getting us no where or do we seek a new direction?

Is ALPA a new direction? I have a feeling PCL will say that it is...but is his view tainted since he's running for an officer position? Is he looking to feather his own nest with the other officers?

1) Keep the NPA and try to fix it (which doesn't seem to be working)

2) Find a new union that can possibly help us.(ALPA with all its' baggage)

This is currently being discussed at Delta. Should they seek new representation, or try and fix ALPA. The grass is greener because you can see the dog sh*t in the yard.

If we vote in ALPA and they do nothing for us what have we lost? If we keep the NPA and they do nothing for us what have we gained? What's the worst thing that could happen to us if we went with ALPA and could the NPA do any better (like merger protection)?

Think of it this way...where will the change be coming from? You're still going to be electing officers from the same pilot group that couldn't get it done before.

 

[75M]

Remember, past results do not indicate future success, or failure.

I kinda think past results do indicate future success, or failure.

- Past is prologue
- Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it
- Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice. shame on me

 

[Lear70]

Scarlet, you need to get to a road show. But to answer your question, the $3 million would stay in our own MEC accounts.

*SMACK*

Scarlet? Paging Scarlet...

Yes, that's correct, the $3 Million gets to stay in the MEC's account, and does not go to ALPA National's general account.

We also will have access IMMEDIATELY to a very large contingency fund.

We also will have access IMMEDIATELY to INCLUDED insurance products that costs hundreds of dollars a year through Harvey Watts.

We also will have the ability to change the leadership as we see fit. Just a simple majority at ANY MEC meeting can start a recall vote to the pilot group. In other words, to answer your original accusation, no, it does not necessarily have to be the same leadership as we've had the last 4 years (and 2 of the guys just got in there and we're seeing mostly better things).

As much as you don't want to admit it, there's no good answer to "What happens if we DON'T vote in ALPA". The answer is: "More of the same". In that case, we DO keep the same officers, we DO keep the same legal staff, we DO keep the same failed approach to getting a new contract.

So what are you going to vote for? More of the same failures? Or the power to actually change your lot in life?

p.s. Scarlet, this isn't for you. I'm answering your questions because it gives an excellent opportunity to point out the decision we're REALLY facing: ALPA or the same old NPA. I know you've already made up your mind, but thank you for giving us the opportunity to inform those who actually are seriously contemplating the issue.

 

[pipe]

Everyone cares what you think TY!!!

So the question was ALPA WHY, and the 3 million in the bank goes where? STILL NO ANSWER ??

Just typical Americans, believe in something but can not answer the major questions.
ASK
MESA you guys happy with ALPA
USAIR=already answered
TWA guys were you guys happy how ALPA helped you?
CAL=how is that PRATER Contract?
DAL=how Sen. work out/RJ give away?
United=HAppy with ALpA?
Pinnacle=Happy with ALPA? how long now no contract?
ASA=Happy with ALPA
COMAIR=I think we know=Happy?

It is a VALID question !!

I'll take this one -- hell no! They didn't help us and as a matter of fact they subverted our MEC. All they wanted was more members -- about 10,000 more in the form of the AA pilots.

Woerth wouldn't talk to our MEC chairman, they wouldn't let us use the money in OUR merger assessment, and they advised us to waive scope. This was all in the interest of "preserving our jobs". Well, I have been on furlough there for over seven years -- can't say they helped me out much.

In response to the spurious argument that ALPA didn't cause AA to buy TWA -- no sh!t. Those eventualities are exactly why you keep a union on property (assuming they will do something to help when it hits the fan).

Having said all of that, I am a reluctant member. A union election is like a US presidential election -- there never seem to be any good choices. Hold your nose and pick the least rotten fish. As for the dude who keeps wanting to know where the NPA's vast $3 million in resources will go -- that's a drop in the bucket. They can't do a damn thing for you guys with $3 million.

PIPE

 

[Colonel Savage]

Everyone please remember that ALPA's track record regarding SCOPE protection is absolutly absymal, and that SCOPE is something that your pilot group is trying very hard to take a stand on. I feel that if ALPA becomes your bargining agent, there will be pressure from them for you to compromise your SCOPE provisions in order to further ALPA's agenda regarding regional pilot representation.

Regional Jet Insurgency is the key issue facing mainline pilots they battle extinction, and ALPA is paving the road for those who would like to replace you.

Be careful what you wish for!

 

[twepilot]

good point...Maybe some of the ALPAbots can cite a few examples of when alpa made a positive difference in scope language.

RV

 

[JT12345]

Unions have been ineffective because of the White House. The National Mediation Board is about as biased as the Attorney General's office under the Bush administration.

All you have to do is ask the Spirit pilots about their dumbfek mediator. How the company won a grievance over violations of the contract by saying they will go bankrupt. It is not a mediators job to change contracts due to economics. That is left up to the so called "judges" in bankruptcy "court." Why they call these appointed dumbfeks "judges" is beyond me because they are not elected judges. The bankruptcy judges and NMB are puppets of the Presidency, and their court/usage is a joke.

The NMB is a joke and they all hate organized labor.
Not one strike under Bush. Major Airline pilots making lifetime carreer earnings of 65% less than 10 years ago while their CEOs take 10, 15 and 20+ million dollar bonuses exiting bankruptcy.

And yet after this broom handle has been shoved up your ass for the last 8 years because you voted for Bush with the same religious values... you vote for the new man McCain with the most obvious anti-labor record by his approval of only 1.6 billion dollars for airlines after 911 eventhough they told us we would get 10 billion.

Instead airlines went bankrupt with no bailout. Your average career earnings for retirement of 6 million went bye bye... and your average yearly earnings went down 35%. But still you went to the voting boothe and said "thank you sir may I have another broom stick up the ass." Reductions in average career earnings affects everyones bottom line... union member or not.

We will see about the stimulus package, but I can tell you now change is coming for Airline Pilots. I hope those mediators and judges have boxes to put their pitchforks and tails in.

 

[Clyde Frog]

go ask all the ASA guys how long it took ASA and ALPA to work through the grievance process=yes 18 months. There are enough ASA guys here to tell you!

God I wish the NPA could get a grievance settled in only 18 months. Come to think of it, I wish they could get anything settled in our favor, ever.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Scarlet/twepilot and whoever else...

Being that our choices are NPA or ALPA, and you're obviously not in favor of ALPA, how do you suggest we fix the NPA?

Before you answer, remember the last 3 NPA administrations were either recalled or quit prior to being recalled. Each has failed miserably. Each has helped aid the company in the systematic dismantling of our contract through settlements/LOA's. Grievances, terminations, system boards, negotiations, communications, leadership...all severely lacking or non-existent.

So, please do tell, how do you suggest we fix the NPA so as to effectively represent the interests of the AirTran pilot group. I'm all ears.

 

[Nindiri]

The NMB is a joke and they all hate organized labor.
Not one strike under Bush.

Comair, Northwest, Polar, World...

What, do these airlines not count in JT12345 world?