Airtran Pilots Want ALPA=WHY?

[twepilot]

no answers yet...hmmm.

RV

 

[twepilot]

basically Clyde I believe its a POS contradictory contract thats the issue. As well as members of mgmnt exploiting the numerous contradictory sections. Just like I try to work things in the contract to my advantage, so does the company. As far as arbitrations etc. you cannot win an arbitration when one section contradicts another. The worst attorney in the Northern hemisphere will tell you that. And so goes life my friend.
Frankly, I could care less if we have Alpa or anyone else...My biggest concern with alpa is that in my view its opening a door of favoritsm and improprierty and politicises a competitive relationship with DL/NW. The biggest fix in my view will be the wording in our next CBA. Or we can continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and continue taking 2 steps back. BTW, mgmnt loves this crap.

RV

 

[Clyde Frog]

My biggest concern with alpa is that in my view its opening a door of favoritsm and improprierty and politicises a competitive relationship with DL/NW. RV

I've heard that argument before, but I just don't get it.

If we were ASA, Comair, Mesaba, Pinnacle or had our flying intertwined with DAL/NWA, then I'd agree with you 100%. We are a completely separate entity that shares a common hub. How does that cause "favoritism" or lead to "improprieties"?

An improved contract for us is beneficial to all ALPA carriers.

 

[Eagle757shark]

Frankly, I could care less if we have Alpa or anyone else...My biggest concern with alpa is that in my view its opening a door of favoritsm and improprierty and politicises a competitive relationship with DL/NW. The biggest fix in my view will be the wording in our next CBA. Or we can continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and continue taking 2 steps back. BTW, mgmnt loves this crap.

RV

I have to disagree with you here. Business is business! What Delta management and AirTran management do against one another on the competitive front has nothing to do with what union you are affiliated with. That being said, since AirTran competes domestically with Delta head to head, Delta pilots only want to see AirTran pilots get the best contract as possible (work rules and pay). That is a good thing for both pilot groups. I think guys are selling themselves short with this ALPA is going to take something from AirTran and give it to Delta. Why would that happen? It would not!

 

[twepilot]

good points.

RV

btw, today while at the gate I was reading through the alpa mag and saw a pic of Randy Babbitt glad handing the higher ups in alpa at some function. Remember what ol' Randy said years ago.

RV

 

[twepilot]

still waiting for examples of positive outcomes with respect to scope.

RV

 

[PCL_128]

I'm not sure what you mean. Scope is working right now. Delta would outsource every single airplane if they could. DALPA's scope language prevents it. Is it great scope? No. The DAL MEC has never been big on fighting the scope battle. But it is effective scope in that 700+ mainline airplanes still exist. Without ALPA scope, all of that flying would be outsourced.

As far as AirTran, it is up to our own MEC and pilot group to make decisions on scope. I hear the current leadership is making scope a top priority. I'm not too worried about scope.

 

[PCL_128]

btw, today while at the gate I was reading through the alpa mag and saw a pic of Randy Babbitt glad handing the higher ups in alpa at some function.

He's most likely going to be the next FAA Administrator. He and Duane Woerth are the top two contenders. Both are former ALPA presidents. Gee, it sure would be nice to be a part of the organization that is cozy with the new FAA top dog.

 

[b19]

Guppy Guy's level headed response

Guppy Guy is exactly on the money when it comes to making informed decisions without all the emotion attached to the question of your entire future. Sorting of like settling a divorce after all the anger is gone, if neither side is happy it's probably a fair deal.

I would only add one thing and that is to consider Teamsters. Meet with them and let them know you are serious, if only to ALPA honest. So that ALPA knows your loyalty will zero if they don't protect or serve your needs especially regarding scope and merger.

There is nothing wrong with hiring a new attorney when the old one isn't protecting your interests in the divorce process, as long as you are rational about it.

Good luck as every good pilot contract benefits all of us.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Gee, it sure would be nice to be a part of the organization that is cozy with the new FAA top dog.

Yes...because the FAA will get you that better contract

 

[PCL_128]

I would only add one thing and that is to consider Teamsters. Meet with them and let them know you are serious

The BOD already did that. After the meeting, the IBT claimed that they weren't interested, and the BOD endorsed ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes...because the FAA will get you that better contract

Getting a contract is just one small part of what air line pilot unions are about.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Getting a contract is just one small part of what air line pilot unions are about.

Why shouldn't it be? And so many people had the silly notion that a Union should represent the will of the employees. Now the Union has gotten big, and bloated...and has an agenda of its own.

 

[Colonel Savage]

The BOD already did that. After the meeting, the IBT claimed that they weren't interested, and the BOD endorsed ALPA.

So is the pilot group going to ratify the BOD endorsement soon? Is that the next step and then you are ALPA?

 

[AA717driver]

We are a completely separate entity that shares a common hub. How does that cause "favoritism" or lead to "improprieties"?

An improved contract for us is beneficial to all ALPA carriers.

This is a blood sport. Delta's management comes to the MEC and says: "you cut us slack on X issue and we can put the hurt on AirTran, resulting in an expansion once they're on the ropes".

Given Delta's great love and respect for AirTran over the years, what do you think their MEC would do? Oh yeah, I forgot, the AT pilots will be "ALPA Brothers" by then.

There's no way they'd screw over their "brother pilots". I mean look how they got along with Eastern all those years...

TC

 

[FIREMAN]

This is a blood sport. Delta's management comes to the MEC and says: "you cut us slack on X issue and we can put the hurt on AirTran, resulting in an expansion once they're on the ropes".

Given Delta's great love and respect for AirTran over the years, what do you think their MEC would do? Oh yeah, I forgot, the AT pilots will be "ALPA Brothers" by then.

There's no way they'd screw over their "brother pilots". I mean look how they got along with Eastern all those years...

TC

Actually Delta and Eastern people did get along. Having grown up with a father at Eastern and just about everyone in my neighborhood working at Delta, Eastern or as a controller I had a front row seat to the whole Eastern thing. If you really think that the Delta pilots are going to take one for the team, you are delusional.

 

[Lear70]

Why should either pilot group have to be "sacrificed" for the good of the other?

Isn't the entire POINT to build on each other's successes from a union standpoint, and let each carrier's management figure out how to best compete?

Or did I miss that part of Management 101 where you get to turn your employees on their neighbors?

I, for one, think we're better than this, and I have no reason to believe the Delta MEC is secretly colluding with ALPA National to undermine AirTran's pilots.

Fear mongering helps none of us...

 

[twepilot]

He's most likely going to be the next FAA Administrator. He and Duane Woerth are the top two contenders. Both are former ALPA presidents. Gee, it sure would be nice to be a part of the organization that is cozy with the new FAA top dog.

Then thats even more ALARMING considering Babbitt said that alpa needs to find a way to get rid of the LCC's (paraphrased).

RV

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

2x post

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is a blood sport. Delta's management comes to the MEC and says: "you cut us slack on X issue and we can put the hurt on AirTran, resulting in an expansion once they're on the ropes".

Given Delta's great love and respect for AirTran over the years, what do you think their MEC would do? Oh yeah, I forgot, the AT pilots will be "ALPA Brothers" by then.

There's no way they'd screw over their "brother pilots". I mean look how they got along with Eastern all those years...

TC

If that is what you believe and expect others to do as well.... then it shall be...

Most likely someone else told you to think this way... and here you are.....

 

[AA717driver]

If that is what you believe and expect others to do as well.... then it shall be...

Most likely someone else told you to think this way... and here you are.....

Rez, you're so altruistic. I like that in a union hack.

Nice try.

Lear70--I assume you got your job back. If so, I'm really happy. You of all people should know what is possible when management and greedy pilots are involved. Would ALPA have saved your job--or at least mitigated the personal pain while they fought it out? I hope so. That is one area on the local level they are good at.

Actually, I'm happy to see that there is still some optimism out there. Not a great grasp of the internecine political battles within ALPA but you'll figure it out...

Good luck AT guys.

TC

 

[dh82dvr]

This is a blood sport. Delta's management comes to the MEC and says: "you cut us slack on X issue and we can put the hurt on AirTran, resulting in an expansion once they're on the ropes".

Given Delta's great love and respect for AirTran over the years, what do you think their MEC would do? Oh yeah, I forgot, the AT pilots will be "ALPA Brothers" by then.

There's no way they'd screw over their "brother pilots". I mean look how they got along with Eastern all those years...

TC

couldn't this happen regardless of how AT is represented? How does ALPA, NPA or anyone prevent that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, you're so altruistic. I like that in a union hack.

Nice try.

Lear70--I assume you got your job back. If so, I'm really happy. You of all people should know what is possible when management and greedy pilots are involved. Would ALPA have saved your job--or at least mitigated the personal pain while they fought it out? I hope so. That is one area on the local level they are good at.

Actually, I'm happy to see that there is still some optimism out there. Not a great grasp of the internecine political battles within ALPA but you'll figure it out...

Good luck AT guys.

TC

Sounds like a change in attitude.... glad to hear it...

 

[Lear70]

Lear70--I assume you got your job back.

Nope. Still a voting member of the NPA until it goes to arbitration, and I'm still fighting for my job back, but the NPA has been unable to make anything happen and unwilling to make it a top priority.

You of all people should know what is possible when management and greedy pilots are involved. Would ALPA have saved your job--or at least mitigated the personal pain while they fought it out? I hope so. That is one area on the local level they are good at.

Probably. There certainly is more that could have been done at the time but wasn't. Whether the NPA didn't have anyone at the helm at the time (we had just recalled Philpot and Surrapine) or whether the existing reps didn't want to fight it out at the time is a matter I'm not going to get into.

Actually, I'm happy to see that there is still some optimism out there. Not a great grasp of the internecine political battles within ALPA but you'll figure it out...

I'm well-aware of the internal battles that go on within ALPA, I posted a break-down on one of those pitfalls on another thread.

I still, however, refuse to believe that ALPA's underlying plan is to undermine AirTran pilots. Considering we'll be an ongoing revenue stream for them, that would be defeatist, to say the least,,,

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it. Good luck to you as well.

 

[twepilot]

the NPA has been unable to make anything happen and unwilling to make it a top priority.

How does any union MAKE the company do something?

How do you know its not one of their highest priorities?

Has the npa not followed procedure and protocol?

Those of us that will be supporting you want to know these answers.

RV

 

[Lear70]

How does any union MAKE the company do something?

How do you know its not one of their highest priorities?

Weren't you listening on the Southwest conference call? I asked the SWAPA president what THEY do when the company does something like this (very rare). His answer was:

"Everything. You make it public. You make it ugly. You do WHATEVER it takes, and let the chips fall where they may".

In other words, you don't "play nice" with the company for over a year, afraid to "rock the boat" so that they'll throw the pilot group a bone. You take the fight TO the company, and if the company doesn't like it, then that's really too bad.

I've had this conversation with Mike on more than one occassion. Specifically, I've asked why we, unlike most other unions, are signing side-letters giving the company relief on ANYTHING while we have contract hostages on the street.

His answer: "I'm not holding up ANYTHING that benefits the pilot group for the concerns of two guys." That's wrong.

There should be NO side letters, NO T.A.'s, NO relief of ANY kind given to the company by the union until hostages are reinstated. That's STANDARD UNION OPERATING POLICY at EVERY major, unionized carrier in the business...

Except ours, of course.

Has the npa not followed procedure and protocol?

Have they followed procedure? Yes, the NPA has done what's required of them to keep them out of a DFR suit (barely). Nothing more. Unlike another pilot who was recently terminated and was IMMEDIATELY placed on FULL Flight Pay Loss until reinstated.

Protocol? As in "what is normally expected of a union"? No, just the minimum required by law. Reference example above.

Those of us that will be supporting you want to know these answers.

RV

Now you know. My thanks to you and all the other AirTran pilots for your support. My hope is that ALPA *WILL* make it a priority, and that Don and I will, at the VERY least, no longer be held up from grievance by the company and, at best, reinstated with full back-pay in the near future.

 

[PCL_128]

Unlike another pilot who was recently terminated and was IMMEDIATELY placed on FULL Flight Pay Loss until reinstated.

Call your reps. I don't think you have all the facts on this case.

 

[Lear70]

Call your reps. I don't think you have all the facts on this case.

Done.

 

[twepilot]

No I didn't listen to the call I was working.

I completely disagree with the mindset that all pilots must suffer if a few suffer. I'll even go a bit further and say that I believe its selfish for one to hold up gains that may be made for the overall group.

Sorry about your particular instance, but technically you were caught pseudo-defrauding the company of sick time. You might not like hearing that but as I see it, that is what happened, technically.

RV

 

[labatt]

No I didn't listen to the call I was working.

I completely disagree with the mindset that all pilots must suffer if a few suffer. I'll even go a bit further and say that I believe its selfish for one to hold up gains that may be made for the overall group.

Sorry about your particular instance, but technically you were caught pseudo-defrauding the company of sick time. You might not like hearing that but as I see it, that is what happened, technically.

RV

Come on RV,

They took two hostages plain and simple. If it wasn't for Lear70, TA2 would have passed without a doubt. I think we would be in big trouble right now from a scope stand point.

As far as suffering goes, you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy what Lear70 has been thru in the last year. As far as any gains while our two brothers are on the street, hell no!! I can't believe we have given the company what we have recently. I know you are anti-ALPA, but I hope the hostage situation becomes the #1 priority as they take over. We as a union and pilot group should be ashamed of ourselves how we have handled this hostage situation.