Airtran MEC voted no

[canyonblue]

When it is all said and done whether we get relative or date of hire or something with protections,.......

I wouldn't think for a minute you will get any of the three, but it's obvious there is a "Collusion of Delusion" in Atlanta these days. The AIP had the fences and protections and the pay bumps, the next product, if there is one, won't. Your MEC voted that away, please don't for a minute think that any of those will return, that ship sailed. Actually, the AAI MEC torpedoed it and it sank. Where's General Sherman when you need him?

 

[Ty Webb]

I wish you guys would stop using the "32%" lie. If every AAI pilot is losing 32%, then every SWA pilot is gaining 32%. Show me where every SWA pilot gains 32% and I will never bring it up again.

It's simple math. Our pilot group is 25% the size of yours. The 32% removed from us equals 8% gain on your side.

Most of us lose here lose around 32%. The exception is the group at the bottom hired after 2008, who lose zero.

For example I go from being at 29% (from the top) to 61%, which puts me with guys hired almost 4 years after I was.

The AIP had the fences and protections and the pay bumps, the next product, if there is one, won't.

The protection in ATL only applied to the 40% of our pilot group that would not have been displaced. Even at 29% on our seniority list, I would not be able to hold ATL.

 

[N1kawotg]

Fair and equitable is more than seniority. One can not just pick out the part of total package and say this is not fair. Look at it all. SWAPA wasn't happy at all the money going to AT but the total package had better seniority to not ask for pay. GK gave money to take a hit in seniority for AT to get on the list as fast as possiible so the synergies could began asap. AT just shot that plan down, that money is gone. He is an accountant and superb cost man. If AT only cares about the fair and equitable seniority you might just get it, but a SWAPA contract may not follow. No families sent to the street, but simply run both separate. GK keeps lower payroll cost. it a win for SWA, a win for SWAPA only in fact that nothing changes except SL8 has all planes coming to SWA which must be flown by SWAPA, win for AT in fact they keep senoirity which seems to be more important than pay and benefits. Only loss to SWA-money, that's all they care about as long as culture not harmed to much. So who will they balme, with process agreement signed by all doesn't mean GK has to combine companies, he already owns both. Good luck to all at SWA and AT.

 

[madjack]

Ty,

You could have as a SWA FO...

Ballsy move by AAI/MEC, the view from this side is that the NC/MC negotiated in good faith and came up with and agreement that traded AAI seniority for SWA pay and benefits (plus sweeteners post AIP)...the dollar compensation figures are staggeringly lopsided: 2 bil vs 188 mil (your MC's figures). Not to mention the intangible of increased job security, etc...well that was not good enough for the AAI MEC, they want more...you think you can get it at arbitration (based on the ALPA lawyers and precedent) that will I assume come in the form of seniority...so the view, right or wrong, from this side is that the $$ were not good enough, and M/B and AGM precedent has given you a sense of entitlement...you may get what you want from arbitration ($$ and seniority) but the chances of this integration being negotiated and therefore more harmonious are gone...your collective greed may pan out for you but your true colors are obvious for all to see...

 

[NuGuy]

, that ship sailed. Actually, the AAI MEC torpedoed it and it sank. Where's General Sherman when you need him?

I swear, there must be a "Cliche' Merger Phrases Handbook" they hand out when these things happen.

"That ship has sailed"

"The train is leaving the station"

Blah, blah, blah. Believe me, the DALNWA guys retired all of the old ones from over use. Please come up with something new.

Nu

 

[puddlejumper101]

Unlikely. AirTran flourishes in an economic downturn. Always has, and we're hedged better than Southwest is.

Add to that the fact that we've already started cutting those inefficient markets (announcements last month) and have been re-deploying the aircraft on higher-yield markets, making us even more profitable than we've already been in the past...

We're going to be just fine during the interim while we're working on this, as is Southwest and your pilot group. No reason to be hating, this is just part of the process, like it or not. I'm still betting on an 11th hour negotiated settlement, one that addresses GhettoJet's issue and that I proposed before. I'm trying to flesh it out and present it to the MC, in hopes it offers an alternative that wouldn't harm a single SWA pilots' upgrade, relative seniority, and still protects AAI pilots' Quality of Life moving forward.

Believe it or not, most of us DO value the SWA culture and believe there's ways to craft an SLI that don't harm ANYONE at SWA and don't harm AAI pilots unduly. I'm staying positive, hope everyone else can as well... Fly safe out there! :beer: (emoticon back by popular demand)

ummm, Lear I don't know if you got the memo or not but your company right now is not being run by your people anymore. The cutting back of flights and re-deploying of aircraft is not being done by your people. Airtran is being run by SWA and their planners. You guys are not stand-alone anymore. Yeah Airtran and SWA have always been recession-proof but right now from the planning dept, they are virtually the same beast. SWA has complete control over your airline right now, your people are gone, or have to answer to someone in LUV HDQTRS now.

 

[sooner01]

well looking at ALL the posters on this thread, i can see there is going to be atleaat 10-12 pissed off guys!

 

[Lear70]

ummm, Lear I don't know if you got the memo or not but your company right now is not being run by your people anymore. The cutting back of flights and re-deploying of aircraft is not being done by your people. Airtran is being run by SWA and their planners. You guys are not stand-alone anymore. Yeah Airtran and SWA have always been recession-proof but right now from the planning dept, they are virtually the same beast. SWA has complete control over your airline right now, your people are gone, or have to answer to someone in LUV HDQTRS now.

Thank you for pointing out that integration has already begun and McCaskill/Bond is triggered (something our attorneys have already agreed with as well). Whole departments don't even EXIST at AirTran anymore; they've all been moved to Dallas. Integration is ongoing and will continue.

But back to the other point, yes, AirTran is being run by SWA and their planners. Those planners are not going to deliberately run AAI at a loss so that the provisions in SL8 that many are drooling over will happen. It's a BUSINESS. They will work within the framework they have to make it as cost-effective and profitable as possible and since it already has BEEN profitable, I expect it will do nothing but improve.

That's simply not a concern right now. What IS a concern to me is trying to get everyone back on a livable "same page". This wasn't it. After emotions die down and a few months of mediation and arbitration have happened, it's entirely possible that a workable deal might emerge. It might,,, it might not. That's the risk moving forward: we get a worse deal, or we get a better deal and it sours the relations for years to come.

My personal bet is that GK and SWAPA will realize that it was close and that a negotiated settlement, even a last-minute one, is better than an uncertain arbitration award, despite the "ship sailing" crowd. You all have your opinions. We have ours. Respectfully, we'll move forward.

 

[madjack]

So Lear, why is there a SL8??

 

[puddlejumper101]

Thank you for pointing out that integration has already begun and McCaskill/Bond is triggered (something our attorneys have already agreed with as well). Whole departments don't even EXIST at AirTran anymore; they've all been moved to Dallas. Integration is ongoing and will continue.

But back to the other point, yes, AirTran is being run by SWA and their planners. Those planners are not going to deliberately run AAI at a loss so that the provisions in SL8 that many are drooling over will happen. It's a BUSINESS. They will work within the framework they have to make it as cost-effective and profitable as possible and since it already has BEEN profitable, I expect it will do nothing but improve.

That's simply not a concern right now. What IS a concern to me is trying to get everyone back on a livable "same page". This wasn't it. After emotions die down and a few months of mediation and arbitration have happened, it's entirely possible that a workable deal might emerge. It might,,, it might not. That's the risk moving forward: we get a worse deal, or we get a better deal and it sours the relations for years to come.

My personal bet is that GK and SWAPA will realize that it was close and that a negotiated settlement, even a last-minute one, is better than an uncertain arbitration award, despite the "ship sailing" crowd. You all have your opinions. We have ours. Respectfully, we'll move forward.

Lear, GK never intended to run both companies seperately. How profitable Airtran is or was is no longer an argument. As to how long we remain seperate depends, but ultimately Airtran will disappear. As to with who and how remains to be seen. The only way Airtran remains seperate long-term is if SWA sells them off, but SWA is not going to keep two carriers. If SWA did sell Airtran, they would take anything and everything they needed (ATA style), and then sell them.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Too bad your mec didn't learn anything from the regret felt by frontier and muse pilots.

Oh, yeah! Everyone should be GRATEFUL to be stapled to the bottom of the mighty SWA seniority list.

Way to vote down the $hit $andwidh that swa tried to serve up. Best of luck guys.

FI posters 1 - junior SWA f/os 0

The arbitrator will decide what is fair, primarily because your union couldn't offer something remotely reasonable.

FI posters 2 - junior SWA f/os 0

Most thought it was a bad deal, and they didn't like it. Get over it. 60% of their pilots go to the bottom 20% of the list? That doesn't sound acceptable, they weren't in BK like the Frontier pilots. GK wanted this deal, and the offer from SWAPA was weak. And, seniority is everything in this business.

FI posters 3 - junior SWA f/os 0

....a $500,000 loss to me. Bottom line you win big I lose because I made a poor decision to go to work for the most financially stable company in the industry with enough retirements to ensure I would get to the left seat.

me, Me, ME! WAAAAAAAHHHHHH!

I'll give you this much, at least you're honest about the real agenda here. You want to jump ahead of all the AAI F/Os senior to you at the Company you merged with. You might not want to post honestly here...it runs counter to canyon blue groupthink.

The money and better schedules will come later. Seniority is everything in this business.

FI posters 4 - junior SWA f/os 0

And you honestly think that 6000 ORIGINAL SWA pilots are going to just sit back and let an arbitrator decide our futures for us. Calls are already beeing made to USAPA for some legal advice.

YEAH! Now that's who you want advising you. When (not if) you lose the arbitration, you can dump SWAPA and join USAPA. Be a junior pickleballer! Awesome, Dude!

 

[Ty Webb]

Lear, GK never intended to run both companies seperately. How profitable Airtran is or was is no longer an argument. As to how long we remain seperate depends, but ultimately Airtran will disappear. As to with who and how remains to be seen. The only way Airtran remains seperate long-term is if SWA sells them off, but SWA is not going to keep two carriers. If SWA did sell Airtran, they would take anything and everything they needed (ATA style), and then sell them.

Boo! Cue in the scary music.

Yes, I'm sure the next step will be to sell off a profitable airline that they just paid billions for. . . . . . to a competitor.

 

[shootr]

FI posters 4 - junior SWA f/os 0

You do not understand the dynamics at work here if you think it's only the SWA FO's you're working against. I think the CA's were going to vote no in larger numbers than the FO's. We'll never know if SL9 would have passed but we do know that SWA FO's are not in this fight alone.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Boo! Cue in the scary music.

Yes, I'm sure the next step will be to sell off a profitable airline that they just paid billions for. . . . . . to a competitor.

after they rape and pillage it...yes. Has been done before, that's not what they want to do but they can. Point is there will not be two carriers under the SWA umbrella. We either intergrate, or liquidate there is no middle ground.

 

[Fubijaakr]

No, I'm just referring to the posters here.

 

[easydoesit]

SL8

Section 4
Seniority List Integration
4-A. Integrated Seniority List. The seniority lists of Southwest and AirTran Pilots will be
integrated pursuant to a Process Agreement to be negotiated separately between SWAPA,
AirTran Pilots (represented by ALPA), Southwest and AirTran.

 

[madjack]

Good news for two groups:

Attorneys: Boy at $1500/hr this is going to be huge for them

FI Posters: The entertainment value for the regulars (Lear, Ty, Fudgepacker, Wave, AT, me and the twenty other pilots that read this forum etc...) will be extended for at least 6 months...

 

[madjack]

Fudgepacker,

Who is senior to who, in your world can we jump ahead of the AAI CPs that we are senior to by DOH??

I'll give you this much, at least you're honest about the real agenda here. You want to jump ahead of all the AAI F/Os senior to you at the Company you merged with. You might not want to post honestly here...it runs counter to canyon blue groupthink.

 

[Ty Webb]

after they rape and pillage it...yes. Has been done before, that's not what they want to do but they can. Point is there will not be two carriers under the SWA umbrella. We either intergrate, or liquidate there is no middle ground.

You do realize that you are suggesting that Gary Kelly would stoop to Frank Lorenzo tactics . . . . .

Is your Daddy a SWA pilot? Does he know you're using his computer to insult his boss?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

What we're talking about is an AT pilot leaving AT for SWA (which is something many AT pilots, hundreds, in fact, were trying to do), and then finding themselves junior to and receiving less longevity credit than the fellow AT pilot, who, by the way, also upgraded to captain due to higher AT attrition, and subsequently had his captain seat protected out of seniority.

N.

The upgrades at AT were generated by rapid growth, not captain attrition. The only captain attrition I've seen here since 9/11 was death, retirements and 1 went to Delta because he lived in Paris and wanted to overnight there.


I'm sure United guys knew their 5 year outlook in 1999. You are naive thinking that you will always be at the top of the food chain. I hope it's not the method to your culture - brain wash the employees that they're the best in the world and are invincible and in turn win their loyalty.

Here's our culture, we busted our balls to make a success out troubled airlines and took one sacrifice after another in a process. My goal was not to work for SWA, but (just like your early hired pilots) make this the place that could stand strong like SWA, or even better. Don't laugh, I'm sure your senior captains can tell you a story of how United and American pilots laughed at them in 1980s.

The way I see it, we were on the right track as shown by SWA's desire to acquire us. You noticed it wasn't Spirit they bought. We grew 3 times faster than SWA did in their first 17 years, as 11 year captain, I made 30% more than 11 year captain made at 17 year old SWA (adjusted for inflation). What we were lacking is a good management team. If you think that GK is your golden ticket to the limitless future, don't be so naive. Every successful business is just one bad CEO away from disaster. We were on track to become a success. SWA management knew it. That's why we're here today.

And now to SLI. For you guys to suggest that after 11 years of struggle and building this airline into what it has become my 20+% seniority worth nothing, is an insult. I am a mid to senior captain here who paid his dues every single block our of my time here, and you think that putting me behind a guy who did 2 tours wasting jet fuel in Iraq, sailed into SWA in '05 on wings of squadron buddies, and since enjoyed the worry-free career with fuel hedges and great management is fair? That gave me a 34% loss in seniority. It would take me 22 years to get it back. I'll be a 60 year old man at the same exact point of my career where I am now. Assuming that SWA will continue to dominate the world in 22 years.

While your junior captain who got hired at SWA same day I was hired at AirTran, (btw SWA was a gamble then, so HE just like me got lucky) will enjoy top of the list seniority till we both retire still 6% apart. 6% in 2040 means SWA would have to have 100 787s for me to be most junior captain on it, while he is in top 15% on it. We talking 2040! Shouldn't we be all equal SWA pilots by then? That was your offer that I, and many others begged my MEC to reject.
We carried our management on our backs every leg we flew, by saving gas that they failed to properly hedge so that they can come out smelling like a flower, and sell us for their bonuses.

You say, but look at all the pay you're getting. To me it's like cashing out your 401K to buy a Ferrari. Seniority is everything.

 

[puddlejumper101]

You do realize that you are suggesting that Gary Kelly would stoop to Frank Lorenzo tactics . . . . .

Is your Daddy a SWA pilot? Does he know you're using his computer to insult his boss?

I believe ATA comes to mind. I did not say he was going to do this, but it has been done before. I like your maturity Ty, throw in a personal insult when needed. Maturity at it's best, I never insulted you personally, but you did. Nice...can't wait to fly with you (NOT).

 

[madjack]

And now to SLI. For you guys to suggest that after 11 years of struggle and building this airline into what it has become my 20+% seniority worth nothing, is an insult. I am a mid to senior captain here who paid his dues every single block our of my time here, and you think that putting me behind a guy who did 2 tours wasting jet fuel in Iraq, sailed into SWA in '05 on wings of squadron buddies, and since enjoyed the worry-free career with fuel hedges and great management is fair? That gave me a 34% loss in seniority. It would take me 22 years to get it back. I'll be a 60 year old man at the same exact point of my career where I am now. Assuming that SWA will continue to dominate the world in 22 years.

You are so full of your own crap...an 11 year CP at SWA is a JUNIOR CP...I am 10 + year SWA FO who has paid his dues and as per the AIP I was going to swing gear for a 2005 hire former AAI CP...get over yourself...you guys are greedy and dishonest with yourselves...OBTW you did not build AAI, you did just what I did at SWA, you showed up and flew airplanes, I am pretty confident I worked just as hard as you have!!

Maybe you shouldn't be so confident that you know what it is like to be deployed to Iraq for two tours unless you have done it...

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Maybe you shouldn't be so confident that you know what it is like to be deployed to Iraq for two tours unless you have done it...

Maybe you can tell me how many enemy fighters you shot down that were not built before 1960's, or how many active SAM sights have locked on and fired on you.

 

[Ty Webb]

I believe ATA comes to mind. I did not say he was going to do this, but it has been done before. I like your maturity Ty, throw in a personal insult when needed. Maturity at it's best, I never insulted you personally, but you did. Nice...can't wait to fly with you (NOT).

Saying that your company would "rape and pillage" spoke volumes about your maturity. I'm not convinced you're a SWA pilot at all. Why on earth would they hire someone like you?

Did you tell them during your "interview" that you thought they should buy companies and rape and pillage them?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

You are so full of your own crap...an 11 year CP at SWA is a JUNIOR CP...I am 10 + year SWA FO who has paid his dues and as per the AIP I was going to swing gear for a 2005 hire former AAI CP...get over yourself...you guys are greedy and dishonest with yourselves...OBTW you did not build AAI, you did just what I did at SWA, you showed up and flew airplanes, I am pretty confident I worked just as hard as you have!!

I wasn't talking about you (10 year FO). Neither was I suggesting to be put in top 20% of the combined list. I was pointing out that your offer puts be bellow your mid FO while the guy at my DOH and I have 2 different careers from here on.
I think you flying right seat to the guy hired in 05 is equally unfair, but your proposal didn't just address that, it hurt everyone else in a process. Maybe arbitrator will be more fair to both arguments.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

<combined to the top>

 

[madjack]

Maybe you can tell me how many enemy fighters you shot down that were not built before 1960's, or how many active SAM sights have locked on and fired on you.

Zero, and I don't claim to know what its like...

 

[madjack]

Would you be willing to give up your CP seat to a SWA FO with a DOH before yours?? Not me in this case, just asking...seems like you want to keep all your CP seats AND get the $$ plus seniority...whose greedy here??

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Would you be willing to give up your CP seat to a SWA FO with a DOH before yours?? Not me in this case, just asking...seems like you want to keep all your CP seats AND get the $$ plus seniority...whose greedy here??

I probably should not say that, but there many junior captains at the meeting who said they would downgrade to keep their seniority.

 

[madjack]

but there many junior captains at the meeting who said they would downgrade to keep their seniority.

You were there and heard this?? Are you saying there are guys that are willing to fly as SWA Sr FOs vs AAI Jr CP??