Airtran MEC voted no

[bravodude]

Along with Gary Kelly.

Want the quickest way to 1,742 disgruntled pilots? Take them back to year 1 longevity (or ANY reduction in longevity for that matter) or reduce or wipe out their vacation and sick bank. What do you think pilots will do when they find out their sick bank will get wiped out? Be honest with yourself, what would YOU do?

Not to mention the DFR suits that would get filed for retaliatory and discriminatory practice.

There's a reaction for every action. Just a thought...

With all due respect if you had a choice would you pis off 1700 pilots or 6000 pilots. Ask yourself what happens when an arbitrator hands down a ruling that is less advantageous then the one we just had SL 9. what would 6000 pilots do. what will the ceo of a company that has 6000 pilots do. would he really integrate 1700 happy pilots into 6000 pis pilots and pis them off even more. Be honest with yourself what would you do.

 

[Ty Webb]

With all due respect if you had a choice would you pis off 1700 pilots or 6000 pilots. Ask yourself what happens when an arbitrator hands down a ruling that is less advantageous then the one we just had SL 9. what would 6000 pilots do.

You don't get to pick and choose whether to honor it; either you agree to let an arbitrator settle it, or you don't. That's the whole point of arbitration.

If you want to pick and choose what neutral advice to follow, that process is called "mediation", and the opportunity to do that is between now and September 30th.

 

[Lear70]

Economy is going in the tank, AT is way too inefficient in many markets, look for the cut backs to begin and guess which side of the fence they will occur.

Unlikely. AirTran flourishes in an economic downturn. Always has, and we're hedged better than Southwest is.

Add to that the fact that we've already started cutting those inefficient markets (announcements last month) and have been re-deploying the aircraft on higher-yield markets, making us even more profitable than we've already been in the past...

We're going to be just fine during the interim while we're working on this, as is Southwest and your pilot group. No reason to be hating, this is just part of the process, like it or not. I'm still betting on an 11th hour negotiated settlement, one that addresses GhettoJet's issue and that I proposed before. I'm trying to flesh it out and present it to the MC, in hopes it offers an alternative that wouldn't harm a single SWA pilots' upgrade, relative seniority, and still protects AAI pilots' Quality of Life moving forward.

Believe it or not, most of us DO value the SWA culture and believe there's ways to craft an SLI that don't harm ANYONE at SWA and don't harm AAI pilots unduly. I'm staying positive, hope everyone else can as well... Fly safe out there! :beer: (emoticon back by popular demand)

 

[Jake Dawg]

From the outside.....

1. Trannie MEC followed typical the alpo playbook and didn't give THEIR pilots a say. Ever wonder why more and more pilot groups are looking at independence from alpo? The AT MEC gave SWA/GK the bird. If the sentiment of the AT pilots is as strong as the MEC vote suggests, send it to the pilots and let the pilots give SWA/GK another bird. Much stronger position to be in.

2. If I was SW and SWAPA, I'd be pissed for one reason. The trannie MEC wasted a lot of time and money by having a MC that agreed to a deal that wasn't even close to passing. Why would the trannie MEC send a MC into negotiations without clear guidance? Only one answer, trannie and alpo dysfunction.

 

[trip]

With all due respect if you had a choice would you pis off 1700 pilots or 6000 pilots. Ask yourself what happens when an arbitrator hands down a ruling that is less advantageous then the one we just had SL 9. what would 6000 pilots do. what will the ceo of a company that has 6000 pilots do. would he really integrate 1700 happy pilots into 6000 pis pilots and pis them off even more. Be honest with yourself what would you do.

He should have thought of that before he went shopping.

 

[canyonblue]

The MEC voted it down because the majority of our pilots didn't feel that a 32% seniority haircut was "fair and equitable".

I wish you guys would stop using the "32%" lie. If every AAI pilot is losing 32%, then every SWA pilot is gaining 32%. Show me where every SWA pilot gains 32% and I will never bring it up again. Using your example our SWA senior F/O's would fall at about 30% relative on your list by DOH. This AIP would put them at around 44% relative on the new list, so your point may be that why should a SWA pilot lose 14% when we are the stronger acquiring carrier? Somebody please set Doc Brown's DeLorean to 9/20/2010, I'm sure Biff is running AirTran ALPA.

 

[JT12345]

2. If I was SW and SWAPA, I'd be pissed for one reason. The trannie MEC wasted a lot of time and money by having a MC that agreed to a deal that wasn't even close to passing. Why would the trannie MEC send a MC into negotiations without clear guidance? Only one answer, trannie and alpo dysfunction.

Sorry about that, sincerely if it is true.

I think SWAPA is really good at what they do. I respect them, and am just looking for some respect from this agreement. Not just money.

 

[JT12345]

With all due respect if you had a choice would you pis off 1700 pilots or 6000 pilots. Ask yourself what happens when an arbitrator hands down a ruling that is less advantageous then the one we just had SL 9. what would 6000 pilots do. what will the ceo of a company that has 6000 pilots do. would he really integrate 1700 happy pilots into 6000 pis pilots and pis them off even more. Be honest with yourself what would you do.

The anguish over here because we are the minority is obvious. I interviewed at SWA and this merger process is a lot worse than that was.

We just don't think we have even come close to upsetting you guys. That is why we pushed back. That agreement was really unfair, not because of other airlines and your past mergers, but because of *** who we are.***

When it is all said and done whether we get relative or date of hire or something with protections, a SWAs pilots life is not going to change much. No risk. Just the disappointment of future expectations.

There is no risk of you guys losing your jobs. So don't tell me you are as disappointed with this agreement as we are. What we have on the line here man, and to vote it down!!!!!! It was so unfair and disrepectful.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Ask how it worked out for SWA captains who left for United in '99.

This would be a good point, if we were talking about AT pilots leaving AT for SWA, and then SWA going underwater. Which we aren't.

What we're talking about is an AT pilot leaving AT for SWA (which is something many AT pilots, hundreds, in fact, were trying to do), and then finding themselves junior to and receiving less longevity credit than the fellow AT pilot, who, by the way, also upgraded to captain due to higher AT attrition, and subsequently had his captain seat protected out of seniority.

Not one of you peanut gallery types can honestly say that it is fair for a pilot who left AT to come to the better contract, better stability, better pay of SWA, to be dealt a worse deal in an acquisition SLI with AT than if he had simply stayed at AT and gotten the SWA job through acquisition. But that is what those guys were facing with SL9. Those guys will be heard in arbitration, as they should be. Many here are very content with your uppity MEC shooting this thing down.

 

[Sacha]

Ah, Flightinfo . . .

One part of your group says that ALPA is sabotaging this because they want to continue to receive our dues, the other half thinks we are too expensive, and ALPA will jettison us.

The truth is that the SIA we were presented with did not pass muster with our MEC, and we continue to work within the Process Agreement signed by the four parties. There are no black helicopters with Herndon, VA plates hovering over Dallas . . . There are no secret marching orders . . . The MEC voted it down because the majority of our pilots didn't feel that a 32% seniority haircut was "fair and equitable".

Nice redirect. The question still stands. Or does it worry you a little bit?

 

[canyonblue]

When it is all said and done whether we get relative or date of hire or something with protections,.......

I wouldn't think for a minute you will get any of the three, but it's obvious there is a "Collusion of Delusion" in Atlanta these days. The AIP had the fences and protections and the pay bumps, the next product, if there is one, won't. Your MEC voted that away, please don't for a minute think that any of those will return, that ship sailed. Actually, the AAI MEC torpedoed it and it sank. Where's General Sherman when you need him?

 

[Ty Webb]

I wish you guys would stop using the "32%" lie. If every AAI pilot is losing 32%, then every SWA pilot is gaining 32%. Show me where every SWA pilot gains 32% and I will never bring it up again.

It's simple math. Our pilot group is 25% the size of yours. The 32% removed from us equals 8% gain on your side.

Most of us lose here lose around 32%. The exception is the group at the bottom hired after 2008, who lose zero.

For example I go from being at 29% (from the top) to 61%, which puts me with guys hired almost 4 years after I was.

The AIP had the fences and protections and the pay bumps, the next product, if there is one, won't.

The protection in ATL only applied to the 40% of our pilot group that would not have been displaced. Even at 29% on our seniority list, I would not be able to hold ATL.

 

[N1kawotg]

Fair and equitable is more than seniority. One can not just pick out the part of total package and say this is not fair. Look at it all. SWAPA wasn't happy at all the money going to AT but the total package had better seniority to not ask for pay. GK gave money to take a hit in seniority for AT to get on the list as fast as possiible so the synergies could began asap. AT just shot that plan down, that money is gone. He is an accountant and superb cost man. If AT only cares about the fair and equitable seniority you might just get it, but a SWAPA contract may not follow. No families sent to the street, but simply run both separate. GK keeps lower payroll cost. it a win for SWA, a win for SWAPA only in fact that nothing changes except SL8 has all planes coming to SWA which must be flown by SWAPA, win for AT in fact they keep senoirity which seems to be more important than pay and benefits. Only loss to SWA-money, that's all they care about as long as culture not harmed to much. So who will they balme, with process agreement signed by all doesn't mean GK has to combine companies, he already owns both. Good luck to all at SWA and AT.

 

[madjack]

Ty,

You could have as a SWA FO...

Ballsy move by AAI/MEC, the view from this side is that the NC/MC negotiated in good faith and came up with and agreement that traded AAI seniority for SWA pay and benefits (plus sweeteners post AIP)...the dollar compensation figures are staggeringly lopsided: 2 bil vs 188 mil (your MC's figures). Not to mention the intangible of increased job security, etc...well that was not good enough for the AAI MEC, they want more...you think you can get it at arbitration (based on the ALPA lawyers and precedent) that will I assume come in the form of seniority...so the view, right or wrong, from this side is that the $$ were not good enough, and M/B and AGM precedent has given you a sense of entitlement...you may get what you want from arbitration ($$ and seniority) but the chances of this integration being negotiated and therefore more harmonious are gone...your collective greed may pan out for you but your true colors are obvious for all to see...

 

[NuGuy]

, that ship sailed. Actually, the AAI MEC torpedoed it and it sank. Where's General Sherman when you need him?

I swear, there must be a "Cliche' Merger Phrases Handbook" they hand out when these things happen.

"That ship has sailed"

"The train is leaving the station"

Blah, blah, blah. Believe me, the DALNWA guys retired all of the old ones from over use. Please come up with something new.

Nu

 

[puddlejumper101]

Unlikely. AirTran flourishes in an economic downturn. Always has, and we're hedged better than Southwest is.

Add to that the fact that we've already started cutting those inefficient markets (announcements last month) and have been re-deploying the aircraft on higher-yield markets, making us even more profitable than we've already been in the past...

We're going to be just fine during the interim while we're working on this, as is Southwest and your pilot group. No reason to be hating, this is just part of the process, like it or not. I'm still betting on an 11th hour negotiated settlement, one that addresses GhettoJet's issue and that I proposed before. I'm trying to flesh it out and present it to the MC, in hopes it offers an alternative that wouldn't harm a single SWA pilots' upgrade, relative seniority, and still protects AAI pilots' Quality of Life moving forward.

Believe it or not, most of us DO value the SWA culture and believe there's ways to craft an SLI that don't harm ANYONE at SWA and don't harm AAI pilots unduly. I'm staying positive, hope everyone else can as well... Fly safe out there! :beer: (emoticon back by popular demand)

ummm, Lear I don't know if you got the memo or not but your company right now is not being run by your people anymore. The cutting back of flights and re-deploying of aircraft is not being done by your people. Airtran is being run by SWA and their planners. You guys are not stand-alone anymore. Yeah Airtran and SWA have always been recession-proof but right now from the planning dept, they are virtually the same beast. SWA has complete control over your airline right now, your people are gone, or have to answer to someone in LUV HDQTRS now.

 

[sooner01]

well looking at ALL the posters on this thread, i can see there is going to be atleaat 10-12 pissed off guys!

 

[Lear70]

ummm, Lear I don't know if you got the memo or not but your company right now is not being run by your people anymore. The cutting back of flights and re-deploying of aircraft is not being done by your people. Airtran is being run by SWA and their planners. You guys are not stand-alone anymore. Yeah Airtran and SWA have always been recession-proof but right now from the planning dept, they are virtually the same beast. SWA has complete control over your airline right now, your people are gone, or have to answer to someone in LUV HDQTRS now.

Thank you for pointing out that integration has already begun and McCaskill/Bond is triggered (something our attorneys have already agreed with as well). Whole departments don't even EXIST at AirTran anymore; they've all been moved to Dallas. Integration is ongoing and will continue.

But back to the other point, yes, AirTran is being run by SWA and their planners. Those planners are not going to deliberately run AAI at a loss so that the provisions in SL8 that many are drooling over will happen. It's a BUSINESS. They will work within the framework they have to make it as cost-effective and profitable as possible and since it already has BEEN profitable, I expect it will do nothing but improve.

That's simply not a concern right now. What IS a concern to me is trying to get everyone back on a livable "same page". This wasn't it. After emotions die down and a few months of mediation and arbitration have happened, it's entirely possible that a workable deal might emerge. It might,,, it might not. That's the risk moving forward: we get a worse deal, or we get a better deal and it sours the relations for years to come.

My personal bet is that GK and SWAPA will realize that it was close and that a negotiated settlement, even a last-minute one, is better than an uncertain arbitration award, despite the "ship sailing" crowd. You all have your opinions. We have ours. Respectfully, we'll move forward.

 

[madjack]

So Lear, why is there a SL8??

 

[puddlejumper101]

Thank you for pointing out that integration has already begun and McCaskill/Bond is triggered (something our attorneys have already agreed with as well). Whole departments don't even EXIST at AirTran anymore; they've all been moved to Dallas. Integration is ongoing and will continue.

But back to the other point, yes, AirTran is being run by SWA and their planners. Those planners are not going to deliberately run AAI at a loss so that the provisions in SL8 that many are drooling over will happen. It's a BUSINESS. They will work within the framework they have to make it as cost-effective and profitable as possible and since it already has BEEN profitable, I expect it will do nothing but improve.

That's simply not a concern right now. What IS a concern to me is trying to get everyone back on a livable "same page". This wasn't it. After emotions die down and a few months of mediation and arbitration have happened, it's entirely possible that a workable deal might emerge. It might,,, it might not. That's the risk moving forward: we get a worse deal, or we get a better deal and it sours the relations for years to come.

My personal bet is that GK and SWAPA will realize that it was close and that a negotiated settlement, even a last-minute one, is better than an uncertain arbitration award, despite the "ship sailing" crowd. You all have your opinions. We have ours. Respectfully, we'll move forward.

Lear, GK never intended to run both companies seperately. How profitable Airtran is or was is no longer an argument. As to how long we remain seperate depends, but ultimately Airtran will disappear. As to with who and how remains to be seen. The only way Airtran remains seperate long-term is if SWA sells them off, but SWA is not going to keep two carriers. If SWA did sell Airtran, they would take anything and everything they needed (ATA style), and then sell them.