Airtran MEC voted no

[canyonblue]

When it is all said and done whether we get relative or date of hire or something with protections,.......

I wouldn't think for a minute you will get any of the three, but it's obvious there is a "Collusion of Delusion" in Atlanta these days. The AIP had the fences and protections and the pay bumps, the next product, if there is one, won't. Your MEC voted that away, please don't for a minute think that any of those will return, that ship sailed. Actually, the AAI MEC torpedoed it and it sank. Where's General Sherman when you need him?

 

[Ty Webb]

I wish you guys would stop using the "32%" lie. If every AAI pilot is losing 32%, then every SWA pilot is gaining 32%. Show me where every SWA pilot gains 32% and I will never bring it up again.

It's simple math. Our pilot group is 25% the size of yours. The 32% removed from us equals 8% gain on your side.

Most of us lose here lose around 32%. The exception is the group at the bottom hired after 2008, who lose zero.

For example I go from being at 29% (from the top) to 61%, which puts me with guys hired almost 4 years after I was.

The AIP had the fences and protections and the pay bumps, the next product, if there is one, won't.

The protection in ATL only applied to the 40% of our pilot group that would not have been displaced. Even at 29% on our seniority list, I would not be able to hold ATL.

 

[N1kawotg]

Fair and equitable is more than seniority. One can not just pick out the part of total package and say this is not fair. Look at it all. SWAPA wasn't happy at all the money going to AT but the total package had better seniority to not ask for pay. GK gave money to take a hit in seniority for AT to get on the list as fast as possiible so the synergies could began asap. AT just shot that plan down, that money is gone. He is an accountant and superb cost man. If AT only cares about the fair and equitable seniority you might just get it, but a SWAPA contract may not follow. No families sent to the street, but simply run both separate. GK keeps lower payroll cost. it a win for SWA, a win for SWAPA only in fact that nothing changes except SL8 has all planes coming to SWA which must be flown by SWAPA, win for AT in fact they keep senoirity which seems to be more important than pay and benefits. Only loss to SWA-money, that's all they care about as long as culture not harmed to much. So who will they balme, with process agreement signed by all doesn't mean GK has to combine companies, he already owns both. Good luck to all at SWA and AT.

 

[madjack]

Ty,

You could have as a SWA FO...

Ballsy move by AAI/MEC, the view from this side is that the NC/MC negotiated in good faith and came up with and agreement that traded AAI seniority for SWA pay and benefits (plus sweeteners post AIP)...the dollar compensation figures are staggeringly lopsided: 2 bil vs 188 mil (your MC's figures). Not to mention the intangible of increased job security, etc...well that was not good enough for the AAI MEC, they want more...you think you can get it at arbitration (based on the ALPA lawyers and precedent) that will I assume come in the form of seniority...so the view, right or wrong, from this side is that the $$ were not good enough, and M/B and AGM precedent has given you a sense of entitlement...you may get what you want from arbitration ($$ and seniority) but the chances of this integration being negotiated and therefore more harmonious are gone...your collective greed may pan out for you but your true colors are obvious for all to see...

 

[NuGuy]

, that ship sailed. Actually, the AAI MEC torpedoed it and it sank. Where's General Sherman when you need him?

I swear, there must be a "Cliche' Merger Phrases Handbook" they hand out when these things happen.

"That ship has sailed"

"The train is leaving the station"

Blah, blah, blah. Believe me, the DALNWA guys retired all of the old ones from over use. Please come up with something new.

Nu

 

[puddlejumper101]

Unlikely. AirTran flourishes in an economic downturn. Always has, and we're hedged better than Southwest is.

Add to that the fact that we've already started cutting those inefficient markets (announcements last month) and have been re-deploying the aircraft on higher-yield markets, making us even more profitable than we've already been in the past...

We're going to be just fine during the interim while we're working on this, as is Southwest and your pilot group. No reason to be hating, this is just part of the process, like it or not. I'm still betting on an 11th hour negotiated settlement, one that addresses GhettoJet's issue and that I proposed before. I'm trying to flesh it out and present it to the MC, in hopes it offers an alternative that wouldn't harm a single SWA pilots' upgrade, relative seniority, and still protects AAI pilots' Quality of Life moving forward.

Believe it or not, most of us DO value the SWA culture and believe there's ways to craft an SLI that don't harm ANYONE at SWA and don't harm AAI pilots unduly. I'm staying positive, hope everyone else can as well... Fly safe out there! :beer: (emoticon back by popular demand)

ummm, Lear I don't know if you got the memo or not but your company right now is not being run by your people anymore. The cutting back of flights and re-deploying of aircraft is not being done by your people. Airtran is being run by SWA and their planners. You guys are not stand-alone anymore. Yeah Airtran and SWA have always been recession-proof but right now from the planning dept, they are virtually the same beast. SWA has complete control over your airline right now, your people are gone, or have to answer to someone in LUV HDQTRS now.

 

[sooner01]

well looking at ALL the posters on this thread, i can see there is going to be atleaat 10-12 pissed off guys!

 

[Lear70]

ummm, Lear I don't know if you got the memo or not but your company right now is not being run by your people anymore. The cutting back of flights and re-deploying of aircraft is not being done by your people. Airtran is being run by SWA and their planners. You guys are not stand-alone anymore. Yeah Airtran and SWA have always been recession-proof but right now from the planning dept, they are virtually the same beast. SWA has complete control over your airline right now, your people are gone, or have to answer to someone in LUV HDQTRS now.

Thank you for pointing out that integration has already begun and McCaskill/Bond is triggered (something our attorneys have already agreed with as well). Whole departments don't even EXIST at AirTran anymore; they've all been moved to Dallas. Integration is ongoing and will continue.

But back to the other point, yes, AirTran is being run by SWA and their planners. Those planners are not going to deliberately run AAI at a loss so that the provisions in SL8 that many are drooling over will happen. It's a BUSINESS. They will work within the framework they have to make it as cost-effective and profitable as possible and since it already has BEEN profitable, I expect it will do nothing but improve.

That's simply not a concern right now. What IS a concern to me is trying to get everyone back on a livable "same page". This wasn't it. After emotions die down and a few months of mediation and arbitration have happened, it's entirely possible that a workable deal might emerge. It might,,, it might not. That's the risk moving forward: we get a worse deal, or we get a better deal and it sours the relations for years to come.

My personal bet is that GK and SWAPA will realize that it was close and that a negotiated settlement, even a last-minute one, is better than an uncertain arbitration award, despite the "ship sailing" crowd. You all have your opinions. We have ours. Respectfully, we'll move forward.

 

[madjack]

So Lear, why is there a SL8??

 

[puddlejumper101]

Thank you for pointing out that integration has already begun and McCaskill/Bond is triggered (something our attorneys have already agreed with as well). Whole departments don't even EXIST at AirTran anymore; they've all been moved to Dallas. Integration is ongoing and will continue.

But back to the other point, yes, AirTran is being run by SWA and their planners. Those planners are not going to deliberately run AAI at a loss so that the provisions in SL8 that many are drooling over will happen. It's a BUSINESS. They will work within the framework they have to make it as cost-effective and profitable as possible and since it already has BEEN profitable, I expect it will do nothing but improve.

That's simply not a concern right now. What IS a concern to me is trying to get everyone back on a livable "same page". This wasn't it. After emotions die down and a few months of mediation and arbitration have happened, it's entirely possible that a workable deal might emerge. It might,,, it might not. That's the risk moving forward: we get a worse deal, or we get a better deal and it sours the relations for years to come.

My personal bet is that GK and SWAPA will realize that it was close and that a negotiated settlement, even a last-minute one, is better than an uncertain arbitration award, despite the "ship sailing" crowd. You all have your opinions. We have ours. Respectfully, we'll move forward.

Lear, GK never intended to run both companies seperately. How profitable Airtran is or was is no longer an argument. As to how long we remain seperate depends, but ultimately Airtran will disappear. As to with who and how remains to be seen. The only way Airtran remains seperate long-term is if SWA sells them off, but SWA is not going to keep two carriers. If SWA did sell Airtran, they would take anything and everything they needed (ATA style), and then sell them.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Too bad your mec didn't learn anything from the regret felt by frontier and muse pilots.

Oh, yeah! Everyone should be GRATEFUL to be stapled to the bottom of the mighty SWA seniority list.

Way to vote down the $hit $andwidh that swa tried to serve up. Best of luck guys.

FI posters 1 - junior SWA f/os 0

The arbitrator will decide what is fair, primarily because your union couldn't offer something remotely reasonable.

FI posters 2 - junior SWA f/os 0

Most thought it was a bad deal, and they didn't like it. Get over it. 60% of their pilots go to the bottom 20% of the list? That doesn't sound acceptable, they weren't in BK like the Frontier pilots. GK wanted this deal, and the offer from SWAPA was weak. And, seniority is everything in this business.

FI posters 3 - junior SWA f/os 0

....a $500,000 loss to me. Bottom line you win big I lose because I made a poor decision to go to work for the most financially stable company in the industry with enough retirements to ensure I would get to the left seat.

me, Me, ME! WAAAAAAAHHHHHH!

I'll give you this much, at least you're honest about the real agenda here. You want to jump ahead of all the AAI F/Os senior to you at the Company you merged with. You might not want to post honestly here...it runs counter to canyon blue groupthink.

The money and better schedules will come later. Seniority is everything in this business.

FI posters 4 - junior SWA f/os 0

And you honestly think that 6000 ORIGINAL SWA pilots are going to just sit back and let an arbitrator decide our futures for us. Calls are already beeing made to USAPA for some legal advice.

YEAH! Now that's who you want advising you. When (not if) you lose the arbitration, you can dump SWAPA and join USAPA. Be a junior pickleballer! Awesome, Dude!

 

[Ty Webb]

Lear, GK never intended to run both companies seperately. How profitable Airtran is or was is no longer an argument. As to how long we remain seperate depends, but ultimately Airtran will disappear. As to with who and how remains to be seen. The only way Airtran remains seperate long-term is if SWA sells them off, but SWA is not going to keep two carriers. If SWA did sell Airtran, they would take anything and everything they needed (ATA style), and then sell them.

Boo! Cue in the scary music.

Yes, I'm sure the next step will be to sell off a profitable airline that they just paid billions for. . . . . . to a competitor.

 

[shootr]

FI posters 4 - junior SWA f/os 0

You do not understand the dynamics at work here if you think it's only the SWA FO's you're working against. I think the CA's were going to vote no in larger numbers than the FO's. We'll never know if SL9 would have passed but we do know that SWA FO's are not in this fight alone.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Boo! Cue in the scary music.

Yes, I'm sure the next step will be to sell off a profitable airline that they just paid billions for. . . . . . to a competitor.

after they rape and pillage it...yes. Has been done before, that's not what they want to do but they can. Point is there will not be two carriers under the SWA umbrella. We either intergrate, or liquidate there is no middle ground.

 

[Fubijaakr]

No, I'm just referring to the posters here.