Airtran MEC voted no

[easydoesit]

SL8

Section 4
Seniority List Integration
4-A. Integrated Seniority List. The seniority lists of Southwest and AirTran Pilots will be
integrated pursuant to a Process Agreement to be negotiated separately between SWAPA,
AirTran Pilots (represented by ALPA), Southwest and AirTran.

 

[madjack]

Good news for two groups:

Attorneys: Boy at $1500/hr this is going to be huge for them

FI Posters: The entertainment value for the regulars (Lear, Ty, Fudgepacker, Wave, AT, me and the twenty other pilots that read this forum etc...) will be extended for at least 6 months...

 

[madjack]

Fudgepacker,

Who is senior to who, in your world can we jump ahead of the AAI CPs that we are senior to by DOH??

I'll give you this much, at least you're honest about the real agenda here. You want to jump ahead of all the AAI F/Os senior to you at the Company you merged with. You might not want to post honestly here...it runs counter to canyon blue groupthink.

 

[Ty Webb]

after they rape and pillage it...yes. Has been done before, that's not what they want to do but they can. Point is there will not be two carriers under the SWA umbrella. We either intergrate, or liquidate there is no middle ground.

You do realize that you are suggesting that Gary Kelly would stoop to Frank Lorenzo tactics . . . . .

Is your Daddy a SWA pilot? Does he know you're using his computer to insult his boss?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

What we're talking about is an AT pilot leaving AT for SWA (which is something many AT pilots, hundreds, in fact, were trying to do), and then finding themselves junior to and receiving less longevity credit than the fellow AT pilot, who, by the way, also upgraded to captain due to higher AT attrition, and subsequently had his captain seat protected out of seniority.

N.

The upgrades at AT were generated by rapid growth, not captain attrition. The only captain attrition I've seen here since 9/11 was death, retirements and 1 went to Delta because he lived in Paris and wanted to overnight there.


I'm sure United guys knew their 5 year outlook in 1999. You are naive thinking that you will always be at the top of the food chain. I hope it's not the method to your culture - brain wash the employees that they're the best in the world and are invincible and in turn win their loyalty.

Here's our culture, we busted our balls to make a success out troubled airlines and took one sacrifice after another in a process. My goal was not to work for SWA, but (just like your early hired pilots) make this the place that could stand strong like SWA, or even better. Don't laugh, I'm sure your senior captains can tell you a story of how United and American pilots laughed at them in 1980s.

The way I see it, we were on the right track as shown by SWA's desire to acquire us. You noticed it wasn't Spirit they bought. We grew 3 times faster than SWA did in their first 17 years, as 11 year captain, I made 30% more than 11 year captain made at 17 year old SWA (adjusted for inflation). What we were lacking is a good management team. If you think that GK is your golden ticket to the limitless future, don't be so naive. Every successful business is just one bad CEO away from disaster. We were on track to become a success. SWA management knew it. That's why we're here today.

And now to SLI. For you guys to suggest that after 11 years of struggle and building this airline into what it has become my 20+% seniority worth nothing, is an insult. I am a mid to senior captain here who paid his dues every single block our of my time here, and you think that putting me behind a guy who did 2 tours wasting jet fuel in Iraq, sailed into SWA in '05 on wings of squadron buddies, and since enjoyed the worry-free career with fuel hedges and great management is fair? That gave me a 34% loss in seniority. It would take me 22 years to get it back. I'll be a 60 year old man at the same exact point of my career where I am now. Assuming that SWA will continue to dominate the world in 22 years.

While your junior captain who got hired at SWA same day I was hired at AirTran, (btw SWA was a gamble then, so HE just like me got lucky) will enjoy top of the list seniority till we both retire still 6% apart. 6% in 2040 means SWA would have to have 100 787s for me to be most junior captain on it, while he is in top 15% on it. We talking 2040! Shouldn't we be all equal SWA pilots by then? That was your offer that I, and many others begged my MEC to reject.
We carried our management on our backs every leg we flew, by saving gas that they failed to properly hedge so that they can come out smelling like a flower, and sell us for their bonuses.

You say, but look at all the pay you're getting. To me it's like cashing out your 401K to buy a Ferrari. Seniority is everything.

 

[puddlejumper101]

You do realize that you are suggesting that Gary Kelly would stoop to Frank Lorenzo tactics . . . . .

Is your Daddy a SWA pilot? Does he know you're using his computer to insult his boss?

I believe ATA comes to mind. I did not say he was going to do this, but it has been done before. I like your maturity Ty, throw in a personal insult when needed. Maturity at it's best, I never insulted you personally, but you did. Nice...can't wait to fly with you (NOT).

 

[madjack]

And now to SLI. For you guys to suggest that after 11 years of struggle and building this airline into what it has become my 20+% seniority worth nothing, is an insult. I am a mid to senior captain here who paid his dues every single block our of my time here, and you think that putting me behind a guy who did 2 tours wasting jet fuel in Iraq, sailed into SWA in '05 on wings of squadron buddies, and since enjoyed the worry-free career with fuel hedges and great management is fair? That gave me a 34% loss in seniority. It would take me 22 years to get it back. I'll be a 60 year old man at the same exact point of my career where I am now. Assuming that SWA will continue to dominate the world in 22 years.

You are so full of your own crap...an 11 year CP at SWA is a JUNIOR CP...I am 10 + year SWA FO who has paid his dues and as per the AIP I was going to swing gear for a 2005 hire former AAI CP...get over yourself...you guys are greedy and dishonest with yourselves...OBTW you did not build AAI, you did just what I did at SWA, you showed up and flew airplanes, I am pretty confident I worked just as hard as you have!!

Maybe you shouldn't be so confident that you know what it is like to be deployed to Iraq for two tours unless you have done it...

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Maybe you shouldn't be so confident that you know what it is like to be deployed to Iraq for two tours unless you have done it...

Maybe you can tell me how many enemy fighters you shot down that were not built before 1960's, or how many active SAM sights have locked on and fired on you.

 

[Ty Webb]

I believe ATA comes to mind. I did not say he was going to do this, but it has been done before. I like your maturity Ty, throw in a personal insult when needed. Maturity at it's best, I never insulted you personally, but you did. Nice...can't wait to fly with you (NOT).

Saying that your company would "rape and pillage" spoke volumes about your maturity. I'm not convinced you're a SWA pilot at all. Why on earth would they hire someone like you?

Did you tell them during your "interview" that you thought they should buy companies and rape and pillage them?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

You are so full of your own crap...an 11 year CP at SWA is a JUNIOR CP...I am 10 + year SWA FO who has paid his dues and as per the AIP I was going to swing gear for a 2005 hire former AAI CP...get over yourself...you guys are greedy and dishonest with yourselves...OBTW you did not build AAI, you did just what I did at SWA, you showed up and flew airplanes, I am pretty confident I worked just as hard as you have!!

I wasn't talking about you (10 year FO). Neither was I suggesting to be put in top 20% of the combined list. I was pointing out that your offer puts be bellow your mid FO while the guy at my DOH and I have 2 different careers from here on.
I think you flying right seat to the guy hired in 05 is equally unfair, but your proposal didn't just address that, it hurt everyone else in a process. Maybe arbitrator will be more fair to both arguments.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

<combined to the top>

 

[madjack]

Maybe you can tell me how many enemy fighters you shot down that were not built before 1960's, or how many active SAM sights have locked on and fired on you.

Zero, and I don't claim to know what its like...

 

[madjack]

Would you be willing to give up your CP seat to a SWA FO with a DOH before yours?? Not me in this case, just asking...seems like you want to keep all your CP seats AND get the $$ plus seniority...whose greedy here??

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Would you be willing to give up your CP seat to a SWA FO with a DOH before yours?? Not me in this case, just asking...seems like you want to keep all your CP seats AND get the $$ plus seniority...whose greedy here??

I probably should not say that, but there many junior captains at the meeting who said they would downgrade to keep their seniority.

 

[madjack]

but there many junior captains at the meeting who said they would downgrade to keep their seniority.

You were there and heard this?? Are you saying there are guys that are willing to fly as SWA Sr FOs vs AAI Jr CP??