Airtran MEC voted no

[Fly-By-Cable]

I predict a mediated deal acceptable to both unions reached on arbitrator's doorstep. Neither pilot group will like it, but both with vote it in by narrow margin of realistic people.

 

[slaquer5]

Quote:
Originally Posted by On Your Six
SWAPA will probably give in when they notice that GK can't do anything about the binding award, and would have to be very careful dealing with the AT pilots.



OYS

Knowing that your an AT pilot , I find it interesting that you call our CEO a Paper Tiger AKA. ( Puzzy). I know lear70 thinks this also along with several others. I guess time will tell if you guys are correct.

 

[HighSpeed]

Maybe I have TOO much faith in GK, but I'm betting that he forces both sides back to the table at mediation next week, despite how irritated everyone is right now, and pushes them to find a middle ground.

Lear,

There is no more to give from the SWA side... our pilot group has spoken and the truth is we're not about to give anymore. The only way I see this ever avoiding arbitration is if you guys moved back...

Simply put, for us civilian guys, it took way too much to get here. As a 6 yr f/o, to have 250+ junior to me flying as captain for the next 10 or so years, and to have someone with my same date of hire at ATN make two years more pay at MY company is no longer acceptable... I stayed at the regional - even have a divorce on the books due to the strains, and my f/o's went to Airtran.

 

[Lear70]

Knowing that your an AT pilot , I find it interesting that you call our CEO a Paper Tiger AKA. ( Puzzy). I know lear70 thinks this also along with several others. I guess time will tell if you guys are correct.

Where the heck do you get THAT idea? Find ONE post where I said that... Hint: you won't find it.

What I *DID* say was that I have the utmost respect for SWA and its culture, and I believe GK to be a shrewd businessman who likely recognizes that the best way to move forward is to find negotiated solutions over arbitration.

Not sure where you get "paper tiger" out of that, but hey, it's not like FlightInfo is a place for any kind of rational thought.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Not sure what you're hearing about arbitration from SWAPA, but here's what Dana Eischen wrote. He was on the board of this decision at DAL/NWA. He will be our lead arbitrator.
'We have attempted, at all times, to recognize reasonable expectations of both parties while, in all instances, rejecting proposals that, however facially logical, resulted in untenable windfalls.'
'The resulting list neither realizes nor maintains each and every career expectations, nor could it do so. No recitation of career expectations ever includes a merger, and no merger can leave all hopes and plans unaffected. The most that can be said, and it can be said with some assurance in this case, is that the merger of these particular companies will result in a uniquely powerful entity, by virtue of the contributions of both carriers, that is capable of better withstanding the substantial challenges of the current environment than if the Companies had chose to go it alone.'

 

[Music]

I don't think it was meant to be contradictory. I understand frustration on behalf of SWAPA, and maybe that was part of it.

I absolutely get that. I was only pointing out what appears to be a contradiction being made here on this forum, quoting some facts.

Point taken, however.

 

[RobZerbe]

According to our MC, SWAPA would not budge on the list and our guys walked out of negotiations. They were heading home as GK called them in to see if there is anything could be done to fix it. They respectfully agreed to try. He proposed his protections and restrictions. However our MC kept referencing to the bad list. GK looked at SWAPA. They moved a few numbers and said it was final. GK tried to make things work for both parties. Our MC felt that in a standstill with SWAPA and with GK's good efforts this would be the absolute best that could ever be negotiated at the table.

The last thing our MEC knew about the status of negotiations was that the MC walked out and was on the way home. The "emergency" meeting with GK was not communicated to MEC until after the fact due to timing and the nature of talks. The MC was cornered into agreeing to the proposal with no attorneys present, or MEC approval. (rest assured that will never be allowed again)

This started a disconnect between MC and MEC. Pilots never gave a bird to GK, in fact the opposite, we appreciate his effort to fix the list with protections.

It took MEC longer than SWAPA to vote, because while SL9 provided SWAPA with necessary adjustments to their CBA, the equivalent of SL9 still had to be drafted and approved by legal on our side, for our CBA along with other transitional documents that SWAPA didn't have to have to vote.

AirTran pilots were outraged with SWAPA's refusal to negotiate a fair list. The list is what this thing was about. The list you offered, not GK. He wasn't just helping us, he was helping you, because he knows you'll get crushed in arbitration. Now he can't say that he didn't try.

Don't tell me GK is mad at us... He knows the whole story, not just the propaganda SWAPA put out for you to cover up how THEY caused you to go to arbitration.

The only thing more classless than revealing information from the negotiating table is revealing partial and misleading information combined with outright lies.

This attempt to rewrite history is beyond tacky. I will not respond in kind, however I will offer the following FACTS:
- The Seniority List Agreement was reached during direct pilot to pilot negotiations (no lawyers)
- Governance from both unions was fully briefed and aware of the proposals at the table.
- The MEC and MC were in constant contact throughout the negotiation, including when the Agreement in Principle was reached.
- The deal was negotiated fairly and in good faith
- The decision to reject it was the MEC's.

The disinformation and spin from AirTran ALPA needs to stop. It is damaging to the process and is unprofessional. Knock it off.

Rob Zerbe

 

[dicko]

As a 6 yr f/o, to have 250+ junior to me flying as captain for the next 10 or so years,

You're saying that there are 250 5th year AirTran Captains ..... ?

 

[Fubijaakr]

So you are voting for Michelle Bachmann? Interesting choice. I hope that works out for you Fudgepacker.......

Again, my fault for attempting to use ironic humor. It only works for people of average intelligence or greater. I'm not surprised you completely missed it.

She's a crazed lunatic. It's nice that we can agree on something.

Amen. And she's still the GOP frontrunner.

Simply put there is NO WAY Gary will let this turn in to a USAir type siuation - Best of luck guys - and I mean that...

Agreed. Mr. Kelly will take the arbitrated list, implement it and tell the SWA guys to STFU. Because he doesn't give a fig about Sacha's "career expectations."

He has an airline to run and KNOWS a pickleball revolt from the canyon bluehards will hopelessly fragment the operation. Fortunately, he's smarter than his average f/o.

 

[Sacha]

Again, my fault for attempting to use ironic humor. It only works for people of average intelligence or greater. I'm not surprised you completely missed it.



Amen. And she's still the GOP frontrunner.



Agreed. Mr. Kelly will take the arbitrated list, implement it and tell the SWA guys to STFU. Because he doesn't give a fig about Sacha's "career expectations."

He has an airline to run and KNOWS a pickleball revolt from the canyon bluehards will hopelessly fragment the operation. Fortunately, he's smarter than his average f/o.

Fudgepacker,

My career expectations have more than been met. At 20 years with SWA, this will not affect me no matter what. But it will affect the guys I fly with and the morale of all my fellow workers. I stood up to Lorenzo for what is right so this will be easy in comparison.

Now how about your career expectations?

Your either in awe of Michelle Bachmann or taking pointers on her technique which explains your community college mentality. I'll bet you live in San Fran?
Am I right? Now go ahead and become indignant.

 

[USAFftrplt]

If I were a betting guy, and I dont bet much: I think the AT reps went to negotiations without a care in the world for the bottom 50 percent of their pilot group. Its obvious by what they negotiated! I think they thru their junior FO's under the bus. SWAPA bought off on it in a way to appease their ranks. Truth is SWA pilots are not very happy about it either, but to keep their culture in tact and get along with everyone were willing to run with it, and grin and bear it. In a last ditch effort by the AT MEC he asked for more $$$ to drive the bus over the FO's. Then some greedy captain buddy said wait a minute before you drive off, we could get more $$$$ and a better schedule; lets re-negotiate. A hand shake obviously meant nothing.
BTW I dont work for either company. But if I were the junior guys at AT I would be f'ing furious at your MEC for not letting me at least have a vote and letting the MAJORITY decide whether or not to go forward with this crappy deal. After all who knows what the future holds. But if I were in management, and I negotioated a deal and you agreed to it in my face and then did the potomic two step, I can guarantee you......it would not go the way you think. Your word is golden. Playing high school games can leave you without a chair to sit in when the music stops! And if i could, I would try to kick that f'ing chair out from underneath your fat axe if you tried to sit in it.
Sometimes being humble and saying thank you and counting your blessing that you have a job and a good company bought you is worth more than a better schedule and trying to squeeze a few more $$$$ just because you feel entitled!

 

[Music]

As a 6 yr f/o, to have 250+ junior to me flying as captain for the next 10 or so years, and to have someone with my same date of hire at ATN make two years more pay at MY company is no longer acceptable...

I couldn't agree more. That was the problem with SL9/LOA. You're seniority should allow you to do what it can do, not be encumbered by C & Rs.

 

[HighSpeed]

You're saying that there are 250 5th year AirTran Captains ..... ?

I know where you're going with this, I'm not going to bite

I'm at 75-78% on the SWA senority list and there would be that many below me that would have gotten to retain their captain seat. And that was rejected!!!

 

[HighSpeed]

implement it and tell the SWA guys to STFU. Because he doesn't give

The END of what makes SWA special if that happens... Might as well bring in ALPA next...

 

[zippy32]

The only thing more classless than revealing information from the negotiating table is revealing partial and misleading information combined with outright lies.

This attempt to rewrite history is beyond tacky. I will not respond in kind, however I will offer the following FACTS:
- The Seniority List Agreement was reached during direct pilot to pilot negotiations (no lawyers)
- Governance from both unions was fully briefed and aware of the proposals at the table.
- The MEC and MC were in constant contact throughout the negotiation, including when the Agreement in Principle was reached.
- The deal was negotiated fairly and in good faith
- The decision to reject it was the MEC's.

The disinformation and spin from AirTran ALPA needs to stop. It is damaging to the process and is unprofessional. Knock it off.

Rob Zerbe

Wow. I've got my popcorn out. Fly-by-cable, do you care to reply? Lear?

 

[MILF Hunter]

According to our MC, SWAPA would not budge on the list and our guys walked out of negotiations. They were heading home as GK called them in to see if there is anything could be done to fix it. They respectfully agreed to try. He proposed his protections and restrictions. However our MC kept referencing to the bad list. GK looked at SWAPA. They moved a few numbers and said it was final. GK tried to make things work for both parties. Our MC felt that in a standstill with SWAPA and with GK's good efforts this would be the absolute best that could ever be negotiated at the table.

The last thing our MEC knew about the status of negotiations was that the MC walked out and was on the way home. The "emergency" meeting with GK was not communicated to MEC until after the fact due to timing and the nature of talks. The MC was cornered into agreeing to the proposal with no attorneys present, or MEC approval. (rest assured that will never be allowed again)

This started a disconnect between MC and MEC. Pilots never gave a bird to GK, in fact the opposite, we appreciate his effort to fix the list with protections.

It took MEC longer than SWAPA to vote, because while SL9 provided SWAPA with necessary adjustments to their CBA, the equivalent of SL9 still had to be drafted and approved by legal on our side, for our CBA along with other transitional documents that SWAPA didn't have to have to vote.

AirTran pilots were outraged with SWAPA's refusal to negotiate a fair list. The list is what this thing was about. The list you offered, not GK. He wasn't just helping us, he was helping you, because he knows you'll get crushed in arbitration. Now he can't say that he didn't try.

Don't tell me GK is mad at us... He knows the whole story, not just the propaganda SWAPA put out for you to cover up how THEY caused you to go to arbitration.

"According to our MC...."

Did your MC also tell you about a great deal on some ocean front property in...well you know?

If you believed your MC when they told you Gary was up late on a Friday night, trying to create protections from the list your MC negotiated, I might have a bridge to sell you as well.

 

[scoreboardII]

According to our MC, SWAPA would not budge on the list and our guys walked out of negotiations. They were heading home as GK called them in to see if there is anything could be done to fix it. They respectfully agreed to try. He proposed his protections and restrictions. However our MC kept referencing to the bad list. GK looked at SWAPA. They moved a few numbers and said it was final. GK tried to make things work for both parties. Our MC felt that in a standstill with SWAPA and with GK's good efforts this would be the absolute best that could ever be negotiated at the table.

The last thing our MEC knew about the status of negotiations was that the MC walked out and was on the way home. The "emergency" meeting with GK was not communicated to MEC until after the fact due to timing and the nature of talks. The MC was cornered into agreeing to the proposal with no attorneys present, or MEC approval. (rest assured that will never be allowed again)

This started a disconnect between MC and MEC. Pilots never gave a bird to GK, in fact the opposite, we appreciate his effort to fix the list with protections.

It took MEC longer than SWAPA to vote, because while SL9 provided SWAPA with necessary adjustments to their CBA, the equivalent of SL9 still had to be drafted and approved by legal on our side, for our CBA along with other transitional documents that SWAPA didn't have to have to vote.

AirTran pilots were outraged with SWAPA's refusal to negotiate a fair list. The list is what this thing was about. The list you offered, not GK. He wasn't just helping us, he was helping you, because he knows you'll get crushed in arbitration. Now he can't say that he didn't try.

Don't tell me GK is mad at us... He knows the whole story, not just the propaganda SWAPA put out for you to cover up how THEY caused you to go to arbitration.

Once again, proven a liar, nice work, you guys should try some honesty once in awhile. Good for the soul, like chicken soup.

 

[MILF Hunter]

All I've heard so far is, "Our MC didn't have clear instructions", "Our MC were trapped in negotiations", "Our MC lacked oversight", "Our MC negotiated things they were permitted to", "The attorney's couldn't be reached", blah, blah, blah.

What the heck did your MC think they were doing in Dallas. Can your MEC and MC not recognize a negotiation when its happening?

Like it or not, all parties came to an agreement that your MC supported and was prepared to present to your membership. Y'all couldn't stomach the deal, and had it killed. GK shouldn't be expected to see this any other way because this is exactly what happened.

To your trannies that wanted the chance to vote YES and see this deal passed, they should have spoken as loud as the ones that begged to MEC to kill the deal.

Your MC has four members, and your MEC eight, but clearly the decision to kill this deal was made by hundreds. Stop whining, stop making exuses and man up to the fact that y'all threw this back in GK's face.

You wanted it, now you got it! My guess is that you will not want what coms next!

 

[slaquer5]

Not sure what you're hearing about arbitration from SWAPA, but here's what Dana Eischen wrote. He was on the board of this decision at DAL/NWA. He will be our lead arbitrator.
'We have attempted, at all times, to recognize reasonable expectations of both parties while, in all instances, rejecting proposals that, however facially logical, resulted in untenable windfalls.'
'The resulting list neither realizes nor maintains each and every career expectations, nor could it do so. No recitation of career expectations ever includes a merger, and no merger can leave all hopes and plans unaffected. The most that can be said, and it can be said with some assurance in this case, is that the merger of these particular companies will result in a uniquely powerful entity, by virtue of the contributions of both carriers, that is capable of better withstanding the substantial challenges of the current environment than if the Companies had chose to go it alone.'

So since your part of the AT MEC or NC, why don't you atlest have the ballz to tell us your name, Rob Zerbe has. It is sad that ALPA could care less for the well-being of the AT pilots.

 

[Nindiri]

Just out of curiosity, how will SWA pilots react when this mess is all over?

Obviously, the likely outcome is arbitration. Both sides will complain, but in the end we will integrate and move on. How will SWA guys respond? Will we all shake hands and move on, or will some of these guys hold a serious grudge?

 

[slaquer5]

Just out of curiosity, how will SWA pilots react when this mess is all over?

Obviously, the likely outcome is arbitration. Both sides will complain, but in the end we will integrate and move on. How will SWA guys respond? Will we all shake hands and move on, or will some of these guys hold a serious grudge?

I think the question should be asked, how will SWA and AT. React. Why would you assume only SWA pilots will have a response ?


I believe the answer lies ,of what alpa has put out to the AT pilots.

 

[BlueBlood]

From what I am hearing I can tell you that things are going to get interesting. My buds (SWA dudes) are telling me that if AirTran pilots get the money and the seniority life is going to suck. SWA will do fine but the pilots will have their pound of flesh on way or another. Didn't the AirTran guys just get a memo from the Kraut talking about leaves of absence and reduced flying? You guys just finished recalling furloughees for Pete's sake and this deal wasn't good enough for the angry 7 (not my term, my buddy at AAI told me that one).

My uneducated guess is that this will be an unfortunate chapter for the AirTran pilots. 1700 suffer because 7 decided that the deal wasn't good enough they knew would pass their membership. What they did is listen to the angry mob. Clever if you ask me. Take forever to get to the point of deciding and al the while get your rabble educated on the deal and they are the main participants at the MEC meeting. Self select bias, my friends. The angry showed up and therefore, the MEC felt that was the sentiment of the group, or at least that's the excuse they could use for not sending this deal to them. It looks like, by having open sessions and letting your pilots attend the meeting that you could say "look, this was what the pilots wanted" and wash your hands. The funny thing is, I don't think getting another bite is in the cards. If Gary gives you any more, he would be foolish. He alienates his pilots and shows 1700 new members of the family that he can be bullied in negotiations. No soup for you my friends.

 

[Sacha]

So since your part of the AT MEC or NC, why don't you atlest have the ballz to tell us your name, Rob Zerbe has. It is sad that ALPA could care less for the well-being of the AT pilots.

You are kidding right? Please tell me that this ******************************-bag isn't part of their NC or MEC. That might explain a few things but it would be scary for the Airtran guys none the less........No....No way. I guess I missed the sarcasm.

 

[Nindiri]

I think the question should be asked, how will SWA and AT. React. Why would you assume only SWA pilots will have a response ?


I believe the answer lies ,of what alpa has put out to the AT pilots.

No, I believe the real question is how will SWA pilots react to the arbitration award. The AT pilots' reaction is pretty obvious; they have already said they will accept it, whatever the outcome. And that will be the end of it.

But what about the SWA pilots? How will they respond to an arbitration award and subsequent integration that they obviously aren't going to like? Will they be ready to move on, or will they be bitter and try to create a hostile work environment for their new coworkers? In fairness to SWA, most of the guys I've met in person have been quite reasonable, but let's face it, there are a lot of angry SWA guys here on this board threatening to hold a serious grudge. Just look at the post below your own, with it's threats to carry the fight on indefinitely in the cockpit. Does this represent the views of a majority of SWA pilots, or just an angry few?

 

[USAFftrplt]

One thing is for sure, The Ball is in Motion!

 

[Lowrider717]

I think the question should be asked, how will SWA and AT. React. Why would you assume only SWA pilots will have a response ?


I believe the answer lies ,of what alpa has put out to the AT pilots.

"We are going to follow the Process Agreement because that’s what we do; we honor our agreements. " -Steve Chase

...and as an AirTran Pilot, I'm prepared to honor a decision handed down by an arby, "because that's what we do; we honor our agreements."

I was going to say "can't wait to get this behind us, so we can focus on the future" but I lament that they way we handle this NOW portends HOW we will handle the future! Please let us be honorable, and civil NOW, so we can achieve the same in the future, together!

 

[vv100]

No, I believe the real question is how will SWA pilots react to the arbitration award. The AT pilots' reaction is pretty obvious; they have already said they will accept it, whatever the outcome. And that will be the end of it.

But what about the SWA pilots? How will they respond to an arbitration award and subsequent integration that they obviously aren't going to like? Will they be ready to move on, or will they be bitter and try to create a hostile work environment for their new coworkers? In fairness to SWA, most of the guys I've met in person have been quite reasonable, but let's face it, there are a lot of angry SWA guys here on this board threatening to hold a serious grudge. Just look at the post below your own, with it's threats to carry the fight on indefinitely in the cockpit. Does this represent the views of a majority of SWA pilots, or just an angry few?

It will be a $hitstorm of epic proportions.
Bet on it.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lowrider717;2199126 I lament that they way we handle this NOW portends HOW we will handle the future!

First impressions are hard to overcome, your side has a huge hole to dig out of, but we are a forgiving bunch.

So, whats your side going to do?

 

[GuppyWN]

No, I believe the real question is how will SWA pilots react to the arbitration award. The AT pilots' reaction is pretty obvious; they have already said they will accept it, whatever the outcome. And that will be the end of it.

Is that YOUR position or that of ALPA?

Gup

 

[Nindiri]

Is that YOUR position or that of ALPA?

Gup

AT pilots would certainly have no reason to be angry after a favorable arbitration award.

Now SWA pilots clearly have a bigger problem on their hands, having backed themselves into this unfortunate corner. Obviously, any arbitration award is going to be less favorable to them, so the question is how will they react as the inevitable integration continues and they have to fly with their new coworkers. Are they willing to shake hands and move on, or will they poison the culture and work environment, as some of them have threatened on this board?