Airtran MEC voted no

[Tripower455]

Airlines are union shops. When you move to another airline, you lose all seniority. Not the same with any other profession. When an Engineer, or a Financial Analyst or a Doctor or a Lawyer move on, they are generally move up or at least horizontally. Surely, even you can see this.

I think that's the point he's trying to make........

 

[scoreboardII]

Burger King? Micky D's? Are you really trying to argue this point?

Airlines are union shops. When you move to another airline, you lose all seniority. Not the same with any other profession. When an Engineer, or a Financial Analyst or a Doctor or a Lawyer move on, they are generally move up or at least horizontally. Surely, even you can see this.

Really, thats your argument?

Try quiting Burger King and getting a job at McDonald's, you don't start out as head chef, thats for sure.

Same for lawyers, with rare exception you are not coming in as the head legal eagle, when you start at a new outfit, you start at the bottom of the pack.

Your trying to equate the profession of lawyers and Dr's which are inherently different enough that they cannot be used to describe our industry or compare to our industry.

I could go out and start a fine legal Establishment or a private practice Dr office tomorrow and make money.

You cant say that as a pilot, even with all your types and a spare 737 you find in the gutter, you'd be in the hole day one.

 

[Flyer1015]

Really, thats your argument?

Try quiting Burger King and getting a job at McDonald's, you don't start out as head chef, thats for sure.

Same for lawyers, with rare exception you are not coming in as the head legal eagle, when you start at a new outfit, you start at the bottom of the pack.

Your trying to equate the profession of lawyers and Dr's which are inherently different enough that they cannot be used to describe our industry or compare to our industry.

I could go out and start a fine legal Establishment or a private practice Dr office tomorrow and make money.

You cant say that as a pilot, even with all your types and a spare 737 you find in the gutter, you'd be in the hole day one.

Actually, you can quit a job as a McDonalds cashier and apply and be hired as a manager at Burger King based on your previous experience. The same cannot be said for the airline pilot profession. One cannot quit as a RJ Captain and then apply to be a 737 Captain at a legacy.

Even for lawyers, doctors, or engineers, you may be a new guy and at the bottom of the pack, but your pay is still reflective of your experience. Bring in a BS degree as an engineer, you are paid a certain amount. Bring in a MS, you get a higher amount, and PHd, yet another higher amount. You can jump ship to a new company, but you'll still be paid respectively with your qualifications and experience (what degree you have). Starting at the bottom of the pack in those fields doesn't mean much because your pay and QOL isn't based on longevity with the company as much as it is with an airline pilot. A guy can make $75k as a MS degree engineer, then leave to join a new company that pays him $77k MS engineer. He may be new, the bottom of the engineers, but he's still paid for his experience and qualifications. There's no comparison whatsoever to an airline pilot, where a pilot can be at Pan Am and be a 30 year 747 Captain, but once Pan Am goes poof, he's worth only 30k a year at the bottom of AA's list as a reserve FO.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Actually, you can quit a job as a McDonalds cashier and apply and be hired as a manager at Burger King based on your previous experience. The same cannot be said for the airline pilot profession. One cannot quit as a RJ Captain and then apply to be a 737 Captain at a legacy.

Even for lawyers, doctors, or engineers, you may be a new guy and at the bottom of the pack, but your pay is still reflective of your experience. Bring in a BS degree as an engineer, you are paid a certain amount. Bring in a MS, you get a higher amount, and PHd, yet another higher amount. You can jump ship to a new company, but you'll still be paid respectively with your qualifications and experience (what degree you have). Starting at the bottom of the pack in those fields doesn't mean much because your pay and QOL isn't based on longevity with the company as much as it is with an airline pilot. A guy can make $75k as a MS degree engineer, then leave to join a new company that pays him $77k MS engineer. He may be new, the bottom of the engineers, but he's still paid for his experience and qualifications. There's no comparison whatsoever to an airline pilot, where a pilot can be at Pan Am and be a 30 year 747 Captain, but once Pan Am goes poof, he's worth only 30k a year at the bottom of AA's list as a reserve FO.

Not exactly.

The reason for this (and the reason it'll never change) is because we're NOT specific, individually graded workers, with different abilities and skills. We're all interchangeable widgets, exactly the same as far as management is concerned. Unless you're proved dangerous or a liability, every line pilot is exactly the same. The most you can be in our job is "competent," just like everyone else. It's not like we're different managers or executives, where our individual talents allow the better ones (hopefully!) to be promoted over our peers.

That's why we're more like burger flippers (albeit highly trained and well-paid burger flippers) rather than managers who can leverage their particular talents into starting nearer the top at a new company. We can't. That's why an airline pilot interview basically consists of: "Ever crash a plane? No? Good, you're hired; get in line. At the back with the other new guys."

It may suck, but that's basically the way it works. Always has,and always will.

Bubba

 

[Phlintstone]

Ok this is scary, I agree with bubba. My father was a truck driver (Teamsters union) for over 40 years. When his first comapny went out of business, he was #13 in the entire company. When he went to the next one (still Teamsters) he went to the bottom. He had to do again a few years later. It sucks but that is the nature of these type industries...

Phred

 

[OldManPilot]

I got screwed by both unions. (Stapled). For future purchases, I will yell "staple those Biaches" at the top of my lungs !!

P.S. I agree with SWA Bubba.

 

[Ty Webb]

I agree with Bubba as well (Welcome back, btw) but the original poster said:

When most companies get bought out, the purchasing company slowly integrates the parts they won't and usually sheds around 90% of everything else. Most of the employees of the acquired company are out looking for new jobs. It's the reality of business in this country. I didn't say I agree with it, but it goes on everyday, every week in the US.

My point was that in most buyouts, mergers, what-have you, the employees in question are not starting over at the bottom when they move on, but at similar jobs commensurate with their experience; since airline pilot jobs are seniority based, the protections of M-B are necessary.

He also said, with regards to Arbitration:

.

So let's say that was successful. Would there still be RAT pilots not able to hold ATL or MCO and start commuting to OAK? I'd say the odds were 100%..

I agree . . . . If we hadn't stripped all of the AAI Pilots of their Captain seats, we wouldn't have all these "super-seniority FO's" displacing pilots out of their domiciles. . . .

Looks to me like the way this worked out, about 800 SWA guys will benefit from this deal by upgrading, and the rest of the SWA FO list suffers by the stagnation caused by the creation of a layer of "super-senior FO's" instead of just blending in Captains and FO's.

I know you OSW guys don;t agree, but in a relative seniority merger, no one moves up or down. No one's bidding power changes, and you are where you were. When you start diverging from that, some groups are going to get hurt.

This one looks like this:

SWA Captains - No harm
SWA FO's - #001- #800 Win
SWA FO's - #801- #2400 Lose

Anyone disagree?

 

[jball2]

In this case in particular, the relative seniority argument is only accurate with ZERO retirements.

The AT pilot group is younger and and the average tenure at any given seniority level is around half of that of an SWA pilot. In ten years, the top 10 % of the seniority list would have been disproportionally AT by a large percentage whilst having half the longevity of those just junior to them.

The folks who say longevity shouldn't matter are usually those with less of it.

Again, I'm not trying to start a fight, I am just pointing out that relative is not as "fair" as some believe. In the exact moment it occurs, maybe. Down the road, no way!

 

[Ty Webb]

In this case in particular, the relative seniority argument is only accurate with ZERO retirements.

The AT pilot group is younger and and the average tenure at any given seniority level is around half of that of an SWA pilot. In ten years, the top 10 % of the seniority list would have been disproportionally AT by a large percentage whilst having half the longevity of those just junior to them.

The folks who say longevity shouldn't matter are usually those with less of it.

Again, I'm not trying to start a fight, I am just pointing out that relative is not as "fair" as some believe. In the exact moment it occurs, maybe. Down the road, no way!

Yeah, that is also true. Good post.

 

[scoreboardII]

I agree with Bubba as well (Welcome back, btw) but the original poster said:



My point was that in most buyouts, mergers, what-have you, the employees in question are not starting over at the bottom when they move on, but at similar jobs commensurate with their experience; since airline pilot jobs are seniority based, the protections of M-B are necessary.

He also said, with regards to Arbitration:

.I agree . . . . If we hadn't stripped all of the AAI Pilots of their Captain seats, we wouldn't have all these "super-seniority FO's" displacing pilots out of their domiciles. . . .

Looks to me like the way this worked out, about 800 SWA guys will benefit from this deal by upgrading, and the rest of the SWA FO list suffers by the stagnation caused by the creation of a layer of "super-senior FO's" instead of just blending in Captains and FO's.

I know you OSW guys don;t agree, but in a relative seniority merger, no one moves up or down. No one's bidding power changes, and you are where you were. When you start diverging from that, some groups are going to get hurt.

This one looks like this:

SWA Captains - No harm
SWA FO's - #001- #800 Win
SWA FO's - #801- #2400 Lose

Anyone disagree?

Ty, it wouldn't matter if you blended or did what's happening, the farther down the list you go, the worse off it seems.

 

[madjack]

Every AAI pilot won

 

[Ty Webb]

Every AAI pilot won

Yes, I am sure the16 year AirTran guy who just moved out of his seat, so that you could so you could show us all what a gracious Captain you would make, is feeling like he won the lottery. :laugh:

 

[SWA/FO]

Yes, I am sure the16 year AirTran guy who just moved out of his seat, so that you could so you could show us all what a gracious Captain you would make, is feeling like he won the lottery. :laugh:

......that was voted in by 84% of AirTran Pilots. As a path to citizenship to Southwest. :beer:. You guys teach us how to fly international, single engine taxi (that you constantly take credit for) and we will teach you how to fly a 737, that we invented!

 

[madjack]

You mean the valujet guy who come 2015 can start making more $$ than he ever could...yeah I feel for him...

 

[madjack]

Ty you have convinced me...lets give all AAI CPs a SWA CP seat...now can we get along?...see ya in ATL...on rsv....

 

[Ty Webb]

You mean the valujet guy who come 2015 can start making more $$ than he ever could...yeah I feel for him...

Wacky Jackie, Welcome to "The Sore Winners' Club", otherwise known as my Ignore List. You have fun in there.

Adios!

 

[MCDU]

In this case in particular, the relative seniority argument is only accurate with ZERO retirements.

The AT pilot group is younger and and the average tenure at any given seniority level is around half of that of an SWA pilot. In ten years, the top 10 % of the seniority list would have been disproportionally AT by a large percentage whilst having half the longevity of those just junior to them.

The folks who say longevity shouldn't matter are usually those with less of it.

Again, I'm not trying to start a fight, I am just pointing out that relative is not as "fair" as some believe. In the exact moment it occurs, maybe. Down the road, no way!

Try telling that to an America West pilot.

M

 

[Ty Webb]

Try telling that to an America West pilot.

M

Not the same. That was a bankrupt carrier . . . as was noted by the neutral arbitrator.

 

[madjack]

Your 16 year AAI Cp will be a 30k SWA Cp....holding any base, and flying weekdays...not a poster child ex for the "harm" done to FATs...

 

[humveedriver]

Your 16 year AAI Cp will be a 30k SWA Cp....holding any base, and flying weekdays...not a poster child ex for the "harm" done to FATs...

True. If he doesn't retire before getting to that point. I'm trying to focus on what will be happening 5 years from now at SWA. There will be a/c deliveries, retirements and expansion into new territory. I've got that kind of time to wait. And I get to do from home. If more trannies were in my boat it would probably cut the number of pages on this thread substantially. So that's what you are hearing here, is the folks who don't have time on their side and took a clobbering seniority wise.