Airtran MEC voted no

[Ty Webb]

I disagree.

You guys got an IMMEDIATE payraise when the SW purchase was announced. But you guys like to forget that small detail. With your previous management, you could still be on those old, underpaid Airtran rates. Would you still be happy with that?

Uh, no, we wouldn't be.

I know you guys like to tell yourselves that we FAT cats are living large as a result of the merger, but really the opposite is true.

Most of us believe we would have gotten a bigger pay raise had the negotiations process kept moving forward . . . . instead, the merger was announced, and the prospect of getting an industry-standard leading contract was abandoned.

Anyway, Ty's done teaching History Class. You guys can keep it going if you want.

 

[vixin]

It was a stand alone deal that Gary threw alot of money at.

And RSW saw none of it.

 

[redflyer65]

Uh, no, we wouldn't be.

I know you guys like to tell yourselves that we FAT cats are living large as a result of the merger, but really the opposite is true.

Most of us believe we would have gotten a bigger pay raise had the negotiations process kept moving forward .

I didn't say you were living large, but you are making more (per hour) than you were before Southwest showed up. True?

I know you guys are sitting around, but the payrate is definitely more than it was.

'Bigger pay raise had the negotiations process kept moving forward'? That's funny. Management would have continued to stonewall you for another 2 years...easy. Probably more. Even then, it wouldn't have been industry average...you know the management team you had in place. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

 

[madjack]

JT,

You or I will never know the outcome of a mbrship vote on SL9...

 

[fletch717]

I disagree.

You guys got an IMMEDIATE payraise when the SW purchase was announced. But you guys like to forget that small detail. With your previous management, you could still be on those old, underpaid Airtran rates. Would you still be happy with that?

Did Gary have an idea of what he might do next when the MEC voted it down? Maybe. When you negotiate for a house, do you tell the agent what your next move will be if they don't take the first deal? That's the reality of what your saying. Does that make any sense?

But the deal was the deal. You remember....negotiated by both NC groups. It was a stand alone deal that Gary threw alot of money at. He put everything he had into deal one. The MEC decided the deal wasn't good enough or that the AAI NC went rogue. Whatever. The AAI pilots should have had a vote in their future. That rug was pulled out from under them. Very sad.

There was upfront money in AIP1, but all the captains would then lose when they transition to SWA FO prior to 2015. AIP 1 offered SWA pay rates 6 months after the close of the vote and less seniority than AIP2. Had we taken AIP1 I would be in my 10th month of SWA pay, only to lose it in the next 14 to 18 months. When I transition over to FO. As for profit sharing, the difference between SWA profit sharing this year and our guaranteed retirement contribution which SWA immediately dropped to 9.9percent for parity with RSW is only about $1500.00. Although 1500 is a decent number, it is not the windfall most SWA pilots think we got. As for job security, who can say? Yes SWA has had a long run of success, but I see an old, slow to change operation that is technologically light years behind everybody else. I see high costs and labor troubles on the horizon. The next 3 to 5 years will be a crucial time in the history of SWA, again who's to say what Will happen.

 

[madjack]

What agreement ru talking about? Not AIP1! Besides 780ish CP slots, 10 year ATL fence, immed pay, u had one for one furlough protection...

 

[dicko]

I didn't say you were living large, but you are making more (per hour) than you were before Southwest showed up. True?

I know you guys are sitting around, but the payrate is definitely more than it was.

'Bigger pay raise had the negotiations process kept moving forward'? That's funny. Management would have continued to stonewall you for another 2 years...easy. Probably more. Even then, it wouldn't have been industry average...you know the management team you had in place. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Red,

If I'd claimed to have any intimate knowledge of your Section 6 negotiations for the last 10 years you'd quite rightly call me an idiot. I didn't, and you are. I'd remind you of the Spirit strike, but it will probably distract you.

You have no idea of our status with the NMB at the time, nor do you have any idea with regard to our W2s since. Mine has stayed the same for the last 3 years. The first officers W2s, have gone from dismal, to less than mediocre.

A SWA pilot quoting raised hourly pay rates as a factor in a 'win', without regard for the fact that credit has been cut by 20 - 30% is hilarious, in a sick way. I hope you have nothing to do with SWAPAs negotiations.

You're embarrassing yourself, and I've just wasted my time attempting to explain something to a closed mind.

 

[JT12345]

I disagree.

You guys got an IMMEDIATE payraise when the SW purchase was announced. But you guys like to forget that small detail. With your previous management, you could still be on those old, underpaid Airtran rates. Would you still be happy with that?

Did Gary have an idea of what he might do next when the MEC voted it down? Maybe. When you negotiate for a house, do you tell the agent what your next move will be if they don't take the first deal? That's the reality of what your saying. Does that make any sense?

But the deal was the deal. You remember....negotiated by both NC groups. It was a stand alone deal that Gary threw alot of money at. He put everything he had into deal one. The MEC decided the deal wasn't good enough or that the AAI NC went rogue. Whatever. The AAI pilots should have had a vote in their future. That rug was pulled out from under them. Very sad.

The way I see it AAI FOs got parity with the industry average. Nothing to brag about and an eventual outcome. Even management was on board with that before the merger announcement with pilot shortages coming.

The only advantage the merger annoucement did for our contract negotiations was the reserve Captains took a big pay cut and our Captain line holders are about 5% below industry average.

I am surprised none of our junior reserve Captains have gone insane. I buy them dinner on overnights when I can, but a lot of times they just stay in their hotel room and cry themselves to sleep I think.

If you want to take credit for that.... ok. And I am sure you will blame us for all your problems in the future too.

 

[Ty Webb]

I am surprised none of our junior reserve Captains have gone insane..

One has.... .Maxblast. Perhaps instead of dinner, you might want to offer him some Thorazine and a nice warm cup o' STFU

 

[canyonblue]

One has.... .Maxblast. Perhaps instead of dinner, you might want to offer him some Thorazine and a nice warm cup o' STFU

I thought you said "he" was a "she", what the hells going on over there?

 

[fletch717]

I thought you said "he" was a "she", what the hells going on over there?

"She" used to be a "He", but thanks to the medical benefits.......

 

[Quiet Flight]

nor do you have any idea with regard to our W2s since.

Patently false. AT W2 has been floating around SWA since about Feb, 2011. And none of it is redacted.

Carry on with the misinformation campaign...

 

[redflyer65]

The way I see it AAI FOs got parity with the industry average. Nothing to brag about and an eventual outcome. Even management was on board with that before the merger announcement with pilot shortages coming.

The only advantage the merger annoucement did for our contract negotiations was the reserve Captains took a big pay cut and our Captain line holders are about 5% below industry average.

Well thought out post JT. I just wish you guys could have voted on your future instead of 7 guys blocking you.

Dicko,

You're actually saying you might have been released or given a nice contract shortly after Sept 2010? Ah, okay. That's not even close to reality.

What were the FOs topping out at before then? 80 dollars and hour?

 

[Britpilot]

When in the history of airlines has an MEC voted down a 40% pay raise, 10 year fence and CP seat protection. ALPA gave u unrealistic expectations and greed and arrogance (of the ATL disgruntled CPs mostly) did the rest, nice work!

.....and stapled every single FO to the bottom of the list.
Yeah great deal.

 

[redflyer65]

.....and stapled every single FO to the bottom of the list.
Yeah great deal.

What did you expect Brit?

DOH with a 40-50% payraise?

The two airlines were on the other ends of the spectrum with regards to career expectations.

The staple? Yea, that turned out much better in AIP2 right?

 

[madjack]

The AAI FOs were already at the bottom...

 

[Britpilot]

What did you expect Brit?

DOH with a 40-50% payraise?

The two airlines were on the other ends of the spectrum with regards to career expectations.

The staple? Yea, that turned out much better in AIP2 right?

I expected the company to keep it's nose out of SLI negotiations, I expected a fair integration, I did not expect a "40% -50%" pay raise.

All reasonable expectations. I would have upgraded this year with AT. I will never upgrade at SWA. How's that for an expectation?

I did get an integration number in the second deal not a staple so in that respect, I did a little better.

 

[scoreboardII]

You expected the company to stay out and screw their own pilots? Not happening, didn't happen, and all accomplished within the framework of the agreed upon documents. Get over yourself.

 

[Britpilot]

You expected the company to stay out and screw their own pilots? Not happening, didn't happen, and all accomplished within the framework of the agreed upon documents. Get over yourself.

Stop it with "get over yourself" BS. It's childish.
How would the company staying out of negotiations screwed their pilots? That's the dumbest statement ever.
You know this was a jacked up deal so does the rest of the industry. If you don't know this then you have to be delusional.

 

[scoreboardII]

The only thing childish is thinking a Fortune 500 company would stay out of integration talks between its most important unions.

 

[bluesideup1]

Stop it with "get over yourself" BS. It's childish.
How would the company staying out of negotiations screwed their pilots? That's the dumbest statement ever.
You know this was a jacked up deal so does the rest of the industry. If you don't know this then you have to be delusional.

Brit,

You sound like a little baby that didn't get its way and is complaining that mommy didn't give you exactly what you wanted.

You got bought. The company that bought you wanted a fast contract for the two pilot groups so that it didn't end up like US Air/America West. They got involved and moved the process forward since it was obvious that Airtran negotiating team was hoping for arbitration.

 

[Britpilot]

Brit,

You sound like a little baby that didn't get its way and is complaining that mommy didn't give you exactly what you wanted.

You got bought. The company that bought you wanted a fast contract for the two pilot groups so that it didn't end up like US Air/America West. They got involved and moved the process forward since it was obvious that Airtran negotiating team was hoping for arbitration.

And people think you guys are arrogant? Can't imagine why.
As I said before, I don't care any more. It's just a job and I'm preparing for furlough next year.

 

[redflyer65]

Brit,

You sound like a little baby that didn't get its way and is complaining that mommy didn't give you exactly what you wanted.

You got bought. The company that bought you wanted a fast contract for the two pilot groups so that it didn't end up like US Air/America West. They got involved and moved the process forward since it was obvious that Airtran negotiating team was hoping for arbitration.

Exactly. The Airtran MEC attempted to slow walk the process to the arbitration end point.

So let's say that was successful. Would there still be RAT pilots not able to hold ATL or MCO and start commuting to OAK? I'd say the odds were 100%.

Look around. When most companies get bought out, the purchasing company slowly integrates the parts they won't and usually sheds around 90% of everything else. Most of the employees of the acquired company are out looking for new jobs. It's the reality of business in this country. I didn't say I agree with it, but it goes on everyday, every week in the US.

 

[Ty Webb]

Exactly. The Airtran MEC attempted to slow walk the process to the arbitration end point.

So let's say that was successful. Would there still be RAT pilots not able to hold ATL or MCO and start commuting to OAK? I'd say the odds were 100%.

Look around. When most companies get bought out, the purchasing company slowly integrates the parts they won't and usually sheds around 90% of everything else. Most of the employees of the acquired company are out looking for new jobs. It's the reality of business in this country. I didn't say I agree with it, but it goes on everyday, every week in the US.

The difference is that those jobs are not tied to seniority. Hence McCaskill-Bond.

 

[redflyer65]

The difference is that those jobs are not tied to seniority. Hence McCaskill-Bond.

I'd say there are plenty of positions that have seniority attached to them. Maybe not as well defined as pilots.

In reality, Gary could have done the same. Nowhere in B-M does it say he can't operate AAI as stand alone carrier. He didn't want to flush all those jobs and start over...but he could have. What good was B-M here anyway? A complete non-factor.

 

[madjack]

Unbelievable....ur seats r going to DL...M/B saved ur job...u and the ATL brain trust gave up the protections and $$... Thanks to you and ur ilk RSW CPs will be domiciled in the SWA ATL base later this year....nice work

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

WHY ARE WE STILL ARGUING ABOUT STUFF WE HAVE NO CONTROLL OVER??

This thread is ridiculous!!

There are guys and gals on both sides who feel screwed. But over 80% voted yes on both sides. THAT IS THE ONLY TIME OR PLACE WE HAD ANY EFFECT ON IT!!

Most of us didn't negotiate, propose, write, recommend, or maufacture any of this.

WHAT DO WE CONTROL?

How we treat each other and how we act going forward. I hope all of this foolish name calling and vitriol is left at the parking garage when you come to work.

COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS...

We have a great standard of living and quality of life compared any way you like...HISTORICALLY, vs THE REST OF THE PLANET, vs Many of our fellow citizens!!

LIFE AINT FAIR...QUIT MAKING IT UNPLEASANT TOO!!!

If you are going to be a capt at SWA...count your blessings

If you are already on the top 75% of the list...count your blessings

When you come to work...BE NICE...You only have one life...Lets enjoy it

I'll buy any tranny the first beer...but only if your dress matches your shoes..

 

[madjack]

Yeah let's kiss and drop the lawsuit...

 

[scoreboardII]

The difference is that those jobs are not tied to seniority. Hence McCaskill-Bond.

Patently false, every company out there has folks working under a seniority system, codified or otherwise. The Bond M law is a vestige of politics gone wild and the government trying to tell business how best to run their company. If McDonalds bought out Burger King, how many employees at BK would expect to have a job? Nowhere else is there a law which requires keeping and integrating employees, Nowhere.

 

[Ty Webb]

Patently false, every company out there has folks working under a seniority system, codified or otherwise. The Bond M law is a vestige of politics gone wild and the government trying to tell business how best to run their company. If McDonalds bought out Burger King, how many employees at BK would expect to have a job? Nowhere else is there a law which requires keeping and integrating employees, Nowhere.

Burger King? Micky D's? Are you really trying to argue this point?

Airlines are union shops. When you move to another airline, you lose all seniority. Not the same with any other profession. When an Engineer, or a Financial Analyst or a Doctor or a Lawyer move on, they are generally move up or at least horizontally. Surely, even you can see this.