Airtran MEC voted no

[dicko]

What the mad trannys don't admit is that most if not all of their issues would not exist if sl9 had seen the light of day...quit blaming SWA/SWAPA and embrace reality.

SWAPA and SWA would have done exactly the same thing as they're doing now. We'd just be looking at a different MOU, that did exactly the same thing - Remove the Captain seats.

 

[Beechdriver32]

Cuts both ways.

AIP1 had offers of a prior 6 year AT Capt flying with a 10 year SWA FO. There were enough gems like that to frustrate everybody.

All I know is that on the SWA side there was nothing to be gained on a personal level. No pay raises (ALL SWA rates on 1 Apr 2012), no new bases (ATL was going to be all AT), seat protections for 10 years! We just had to count the number of younger guys being placed ahead of us on the List. The ONLY reason some were positive about the 'deal' was that it was good for the company. That simple concept seems foreign to some posters.

 

[redflyer65]

Cuts both ways.

AIP1 had offers of a prior 6 year AT Capt flying with a 10 year SWA FO. There were enough gems like that to frustrate everybody.

All I know is that on the SWA side there was nothing to be gained on a personal level. No pay raises (ALL SWA rates on 1 Apr 2012), no new bases (ATL was going to be all AT), seat protections for 10 years! We just had to count the number of younger guys being placed ahead of us on the List. The ONLY reason some were positive about the 'deal' was that it was good for the company. That simple concept seems foreign to some posters.

The Airtran guys love to complain about AIP1, but wasn't that better than what they wound up with?

Angrier about AIP1 or AIP2?

The first deal was easily going to be best. Maybe the MEC expectation was DOH, but the companies were far from being equal. Maybe they need more reality.

 

[vixin]

Also the captain "protections" had so many holes in it that using the word "protections" was laughable. Lastly, the 717s departing would've taken away all those CA seats too.

Who negotiated that fo rthe AAI side again?

 

[HowardBorden]

I would also like to point out the fact that Gary Kelly should not have signed an agreement that he never had any intention to follow.

When in the history of airline buyouts, mergers, acquisitions, bankruptcy etc has a CEO involved themselves in a seniority negotiation between two unions.

It seems that you forget that it was mutually agreed upon that this case would NOT go to arbitration in the process agreement, so in actuality he followed what was agreed upon exactly:

"WHEREAS, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (“SWAPA”), the Air Line Pilots Association (“ALPA”), Southwest and AirTran desire to utilize an alternative process as set forth in this Agreement for the creation of an Integrated Master Seniority List."

It also seems that you have forgotten that you invited the CEO to the negotiations in the Process Agreement:

"SWAPA (acting on behalf of the pilots in the service of Southwest Airlines), ALPA (acting on behalf of the pilots in the service of AirTran), and their respective Seniority Merger Committees (the “Merger Committees”) as duly created and authorized by SWAPA and ALPA respectively (each such Merger Committee, SWAPA, ALPA and the Companies is a “Party” under this Agreement)

 

[madjack]

Voting no on SL9 has only helped SWA (at the expense of the AAI pilots)...it saved the company millions in salary, and facilitated the unloading of the 717 to DL...The AT MEC did SWA mgmt/stockholders a huge favor...get mad at SWA all you want (your parent company benefiting from near sighted goals on the part of labor is right out of the play book) but remember your neighborhood AT/ALPA MEC was complicit. While your looking for a scapegoat for your current situation don't forget to blame your previous mgmt for courting SWA for a buyout.

 

[canyonblue]

I think most every AT pilot would have accepted any outcome from a Neutral party.

Somehow I doubt that.

 

[JT12345]

Voting no on SL9 has only helped SWA (at the expense of the AAI pilots)...it saved the company millions in salary, and facilitated the unloading of the 717 to DL...The AT MEC did SWA mgmt/stockholders a huge favor...get mad at SWA all you want (your parent company benefiting from near sighted goals on the part of labor is right out of the play book) but remember your neighborhood AT/ALPA MEC was complicit. While your looking for a scapegoat for your current situation don't forget to blame your previous mgmt for courting SWA for a buyout.

What the hell would AAI MEC voting yes do? I really think it might not have passed on the SWAPA side. When the AAI mechanics voted yes and the SWA mechanics voted no our mechanics had to give up even more too. And I can only imagine the hate if the pilot group itself voted. Got to vote and voted no. I am sure that would have been the excuse for not even a second deal.

And why were the threats only made more real after the MEC vote and not before it?

Are you telling me GK did not know about AC's letter to the AAI group about no threats on July 14th? GK could have come out after that letter from our ATL rep with his threats to influence the vote on the first deal. But there was only silence. And the first deal had a lot of bad language for FOs upgrading on the AAI side. We would have had to wait for every SWA FO on the list to upgrade before us circumventing seniority. And that was worth waiting a few years for the money.

STOP saying we get a 40% raise because the majority of us will see such large hits in seniority by going from CA to FO or from lineholder to reserve that the pay increase is only 10% maybe 20% max for a few. It will be years maybe a decade before we see the 40% you are bragging about.

And I knew some braggers once too? Pilots at United and Delta, but they are not bragging now!

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Nice Job, JT.

Don't pay too much attention to WackyJack . . . every now and then, she goes off her meds and the result is always some sort of rant about ALPA. Sounds like a guilty conscience talking . . . . :laugh:

Nice response, though, for those few folks who might give a damn about how their future co-workers feel.

 

[redflyer65]

What the hell would AAI MEC voting yes do? I really think it might not have passed on the SWAPA side. When the AAI mechanics voted yes and the SWA mechanics voted no our mechanics had to give up even more too. And I can only imagine the hate if the pilot group itself voted. Got to vote and voted no. I am sure that would have been the excuse for not even a second deal.

And why were the threats only made more real after the MEC vote and not before it?

Are you telling me GK did not know about AC's letter to the AAI group about no threats on July 14th? GK could have come out after that letter from our ATL rep with his threats to influence the vote on the first deal. But there was only silence. And the first deal had a lot of bad language for FOs upgrading on the AAI side. We would have had to wait for every SWA FO on the list to upgrade before us circumventing seniority. And that was worth waiting a few years for the money.

STOP saying we get a 40% raise because the majority of us will see such large hits in seniority by going from CA to FO or from lineholder to reserve that the pay increase is only 10% maybe 20% max for a few. It will be years maybe a decade before we see the 40% you are bragging about.

And I knew some braggers once too? Pilots at United and Delta, but they are not bragging now!

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I disagree.

You guys got an IMMEDIATE payraise when the SW purchase was announced. But you guys like to forget that small detail. With your previous management, you could still be on those old, underpaid Airtran rates. Would you still be happy with that?

Did Gary have an idea of what he might do next when the MEC voted it down? Maybe. When you negotiate for a house, do you tell the agent what your next move will be if they don't take the first deal? That's the reality of what your saying. Does that make any sense?

But the deal was the deal. You remember....negotiated by both NC groups. It was a stand alone deal that Gary threw alot of money at. He put everything he had into deal one. The MEC decided the deal wasn't good enough or that the AAI NC went rogue. Whatever. The AAI pilots should have had a vote in their future. That rug was pulled out from under them. Very sad.

 

[Ty Webb]

I disagree.

You guys got an IMMEDIATE payraise when the SW purchase was announced. But you guys like to forget that small detail. With your previous management, you could still be on those old, underpaid Airtran rates. Would you still be happy with that?

Uh, no, we wouldn't be.

I know you guys like to tell yourselves that we FAT cats are living large as a result of the merger, but really the opposite is true.

Most of us believe we would have gotten a bigger pay raise had the negotiations process kept moving forward . . . . instead, the merger was announced, and the prospect of getting an industry-standard leading contract was abandoned.

Anyway, Ty's done teaching History Class. You guys can keep it going if you want.

 

[vixin]

It was a stand alone deal that Gary threw alot of money at.

And RSW saw none of it.

 

[redflyer65]

Uh, no, we wouldn't be.

I know you guys like to tell yourselves that we FAT cats are living large as a result of the merger, but really the opposite is true.

Most of us believe we would have gotten a bigger pay raise had the negotiations process kept moving forward .

I didn't say you were living large, but you are making more (per hour) than you were before Southwest showed up. True?

I know you guys are sitting around, but the payrate is definitely more than it was.

'Bigger pay raise had the negotiations process kept moving forward'? That's funny. Management would have continued to stonewall you for another 2 years...easy. Probably more. Even then, it wouldn't have been industry average...you know the management team you had in place. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

 

[madjack]

JT,

You or I will never know the outcome of a mbrship vote on SL9...

 

[fletch717]

I disagree.

You guys got an IMMEDIATE payraise when the SW purchase was announced. But you guys like to forget that small detail. With your previous management, you could still be on those old, underpaid Airtran rates. Would you still be happy with that?

Did Gary have an idea of what he might do next when the MEC voted it down? Maybe. When you negotiate for a house, do you tell the agent what your next move will be if they don't take the first deal? That's the reality of what your saying. Does that make any sense?

But the deal was the deal. You remember....negotiated by both NC groups. It was a stand alone deal that Gary threw alot of money at. He put everything he had into deal one. The MEC decided the deal wasn't good enough or that the AAI NC went rogue. Whatever. The AAI pilots should have had a vote in their future. That rug was pulled out from under them. Very sad.

There was upfront money in AIP1, but all the captains would then lose when they transition to SWA FO prior to 2015. AIP 1 offered SWA pay rates 6 months after the close of the vote and less seniority than AIP2. Had we taken AIP1 I would be in my 10th month of SWA pay, only to lose it in the next 14 to 18 months. When I transition over to FO. As for profit sharing, the difference between SWA profit sharing this year and our guaranteed retirement contribution which SWA immediately dropped to 9.9percent for parity with RSW is only about $1500.00. Although 1500 is a decent number, it is not the windfall most SWA pilots think we got. As for job security, who can say? Yes SWA has had a long run of success, but I see an old, slow to change operation that is technologically light years behind everybody else. I see high costs and labor troubles on the horizon. The next 3 to 5 years will be a crucial time in the history of SWA, again who's to say what Will happen.

 

[madjack]

What agreement ru talking about? Not AIP1! Besides 780ish CP slots, 10 year ATL fence, immed pay, u had one for one furlough protection...

 

[dicko]

I didn't say you were living large, but you are making more (per hour) than you were before Southwest showed up. True?

I know you guys are sitting around, but the payrate is definitely more than it was.

'Bigger pay raise had the negotiations process kept moving forward'? That's funny. Management would have continued to stonewall you for another 2 years...easy. Probably more. Even then, it wouldn't have been industry average...you know the management team you had in place. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Red,

If I'd claimed to have any intimate knowledge of your Section 6 negotiations for the last 10 years you'd quite rightly call me an idiot. I didn't, and you are. I'd remind you of the Spirit strike, but it will probably distract you.

You have no idea of our status with the NMB at the time, nor do you have any idea with regard to our W2s since. Mine has stayed the same for the last 3 years. The first officers W2s, have gone from dismal, to less than mediocre.

A SWA pilot quoting raised hourly pay rates as a factor in a 'win', without regard for the fact that credit has been cut by 20 - 30% is hilarious, in a sick way. I hope you have nothing to do with SWAPAs negotiations.

You're embarrassing yourself, and I've just wasted my time attempting to explain something to a closed mind.

 

[JT12345]

I disagree.

You guys got an IMMEDIATE payraise when the SW purchase was announced. But you guys like to forget that small detail. With your previous management, you could still be on those old, underpaid Airtran rates. Would you still be happy with that?

Did Gary have an idea of what he might do next when the MEC voted it down? Maybe. When you negotiate for a house, do you tell the agent what your next move will be if they don't take the first deal? That's the reality of what your saying. Does that make any sense?

But the deal was the deal. You remember....negotiated by both NC groups. It was a stand alone deal that Gary threw alot of money at. He put everything he had into deal one. The MEC decided the deal wasn't good enough or that the AAI NC went rogue. Whatever. The AAI pilots should have had a vote in their future. That rug was pulled out from under them. Very sad.

The way I see it AAI FOs got parity with the industry average. Nothing to brag about and an eventual outcome. Even management was on board with that before the merger announcement with pilot shortages coming.

The only advantage the merger annoucement did for our contract negotiations was the reserve Captains took a big pay cut and our Captain line holders are about 5% below industry average.

I am surprised none of our junior reserve Captains have gone insane. I buy them dinner on overnights when I can, but a lot of times they just stay in their hotel room and cry themselves to sleep I think.

If you want to take credit for that.... ok. And I am sure you will blame us for all your problems in the future too.

 

[Ty Webb]

I am surprised none of our junior reserve Captains have gone insane..

One has.... .Maxblast. Perhaps instead of dinner, you might want to offer him some Thorazine and a nice warm cup o' STFU

 

[canyonblue]

One has.... .Maxblast. Perhaps instead of dinner, you might want to offer him some Thorazine and a nice warm cup o' STFU

I thought you said "he" was a "she", what the hells going on over there?