Airtran MEC voted no

[Nindiri]

In the end, I see the 717 being fenced at it's present payscale. SWAPA and SW won't be motivated to pay more at this point. That offer is gone. Gary wants low training cost so he will push for the fence, SWAPA will agree leading to lower 717 cost and the only new training would be newhires as you said.

RF

I see. A new B-scale for new-hires. This gets better all the time.

 

[zippy32]

This is all an exercise in futility. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind at this point. Having said that I guess I'll go ahead and throw my worthless 2 cents out there.

SWA guys argue that they are bringing the industry leading contract to this deal and that the AAI guys are reaping the benefits of the the SWA pilots labor, gaining a windfall in the form of huge pay raises and QOL scheduling improvements.

The AAI guys counter that it is NOT the SWAPA guys that are paying the checks, that it is GK and SWA the company who is paying. They continue that the AAI pilots are not taking anything from the SWAPA guys. Furthermore they contend they are bringing their own jets and ATL gates with them, therefore they aren't taking any Captain seats from the SWA guys. They are bringing their own seats with them.

Now here is where the logic fails, in my humble opinion. If the SWA pilots are NOT responsible for bringing the large contractual gains to the acquisition, then how is it that the AAI guys get credit for bringing the jets to the table? It seems like they are trying to have it both ways.

How is it that the SWAPA pilots deserve no ownership of their contract with their company, yet the AAI guys deserve ownership of captain seats because they are bringing their company brought over some jets? It needs to cut both ways.

 

[On Your Six]

Just a curious question. If pay rates were reduced for the 717, and then vacancies needed filled, how would they fill them? new hires forced to work the 717 instead of the 737? I hope you see my point. I'm old and don't have many years of flying left, but I would hate to see this squabble effect someone just getting into the industry unfairly.

You really are old. Newhire pay on future 717 spots will be higher at SWA compared to old AT rates, period. Even if rates are lowered a bit, they will still be better. Look Pops, why do you care about future newhire rates? You should be concerned about getting your current conflict under control via mediation or arbitration, and THEN go for better newhire rates, which will be better at SWA anyway. How old are you? You're still giving the French Army in WWII a bad name. Man up Pops!



OYS

 

[Sacha]

I thought the 71's were going to Delta, no wait, it was Finair, no Quantas connect, or Africa?

In the big picture, is it in SWAPA's best interest to pay less on an a/c with the same seating capacity of some a/c you already fly?

Who cares? We won't be flying them, you will. They won't be on the property long anyways. The arby can't tell us which aircraft to keep, who will be flying them or what said aircraft will pay. But hey, you guys were able to vote on that so this is old news to you. First there will a giant fence around ATL. Then there will be this giant sucking sound around the Airtran pilot parking lot.

 

[On Your Six]

In the end, I see the 717 being fenced at it's present payscale. SWAPA and SW won't be motivated to pay more at this point. That offer is gone. Gary wants low training cost so he will push for the fence, SWAPA will agree leading to lower 717 cost and the only new training would be newhires as you said.

RF

Oh that is crazy and a scare tactic. Still trying to use pay as a threat to get something unfairly. GK would be NUTS to fence current rates. That is LAME Red. The SLI will be settled, and there won't be a B-Scale, or training costs would skyrocket, people would be unhappy, and maybe most 717 pilots would be disgruntled, which might not allow them to "feel the LUV", and that could affect other things. GK doesn't want that. Just get ready for arbitration and go forward, without crazy threats that are unlikely.



OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Who cares? We won't be flying them, you will. They won't be on the property long anyways. The arby can't tell us which aircraft to keep, who will be flying them or what said aircraft will pay. But hey, you guys were able to vote on that so this is old news to you. First there will a giant fence around ATL. Then there will be this giant sucking sound around the Airtran pilot parking lot.

If SWAPA wants to kill the Golden Goose, let them. If SWA starts to crumble because SWA can't operate efficiently, then those great rates and benefits will go away, sending SWA back to where they initially were, a second rate LCC that people initially went to before going to the Majors. SWAPA will be smart enough not to kill the Goose, and will give in. They have to. Look at USAPA for an example of not agreeing with binding arbitration. That COULD be your future. That won't happen.

This was a great move by Airtran ALPA, it couldn't get worse paywise at
Airtran, so they rolled the dice and will win. Even if is an extra dollar an hour, although it will be a lot more, and they get better seniority to boot! I also like the "Arby's" reference. You guys are "Fudruckers."



OYS

 

[Sacha]

If SWAPA wants to kill the Golden Goose, let them. If SWA starts to crumble because SWA can't operate efficiently, then those great rates and benefits will go away, sending SWA back to where they initially were, a second rate LCC that people initially went to before going to the Majors. SWAPA will be smart enough not to kill the Goose, and will give in. They have to. Look at USAPA for an example of not agreeing with binding arbitration. That COULD be your future. That won't happen.

This was a great move by Airtran ALPA, it couldn't get worse paywise at
Airtran, so they rolled the dice and will win. Even if is an extra dollar an hour, although it will be a lot more, and they get better seniority to boot!


"At United, we don't want to kill the Golden Goose, we just want to choke it a little!"

I read that in the Wall Street Journal. This rocket scientist was OYS's former ALPA boss Rick Dubinsky if I am not mistaken. So they did. They choked and choked and out went thousands of pilot jobs including the all knowing soothsayer OYS. So here he is a new hire at Delta moving nowhere. At the
same time he is advising you Airtran guys to go for it all. Give SWA and it's pilots the middle finger and just choke the ever-living ******************** out of the "Golden Goose". Don't worry, it will work out. The Gubmint will take care of you! Just ask Burnsy. ALPA hardball has worked out so well for him......


Good luck with that

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Who cares? We won't be flying them, you will. They won't be on the property long anyways.

Well there goes your threat of less pay for an extended period of time to "punish" the 717 drivers.

 

[Sacha]

Well there goes your threat of less pay for an extended period of time to "punish" the 717 drivers.

It won't be our fault. As many of you have pointed out: "Gary Kelly pays us, not the Southwest pilots".

Please reread my above response to OYS. If you don't remember how that went down, check the ALPA archives. It might be instructional as you move forward towards some very thin ice. Or just ask OYS. He can be relied upon for whopper of a tale.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Your friends are hardly a scientific sample. By contrast, our representatives were keeping spreadsheets with the names of all of their constituents and how those pilots asked that the MEC vote. In the case of the MKE and MCO domiciles, since they are so small, those reps actually took the time to call every single one of their pilots to ask them personally how they wanted them to vote. It was quite easy for them to figure out the will of the majority. From what I hear, the tally that each rep came up with was overwhelmingly in favor of voting it down at the MEC level and not wasting time with a pilot group vote. But hey, I'm sure your "friends" are the pulse of the membership instead.

If it's true that a majority of the AAI guys wanted the MEC to vote this down, then we have a smaller group of pilots to sympathize with if this thing goes unfortunately for you all. There are many ways that the AT group can pay for this vote.

I don't see it as unreasonable at all for the 717's to get fenced off at your current pay. I find it laughable that you all are crying "B-scale!", after that's exactly what your MEC tried to enact for 175 of your FO's, with two more years longevity than SWA FO's. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. And that's just one prospect you face.

You don't think it will happen? Fine, think what you want. All I know is that the word here is that both Gary and Herb were on a conference call over these events, and they both had to be unscrewed from the ceiling. I wouldn't be feeling very cocky if I was the average gum-chewing AT pilot right now.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Oh, and PCL, here is one comment from one of your colleagues, shared with a friend of his here at SWA. I know, it's just one empirical example. Still, not a glowing indication that he felt "represented".


6 year Airtan FO Perspective

I just read what SWAPA put out to you guys and thought you might like to see what our blowhard know-it-all MEC just put out.
I especially like the part where they say "The MEC heard the voices of our pilots and in the end made our decision".
Complete bull********************.
During the negotiation of our current contract, Wilson Polling bugged the crap out of me with multiple polling calls throughout the whole process. They were asking what I wanted and expected
from a 4yr contract. This SLI will affect my career for a lifetime, and not one single Wilson Poll was conducted! The loudmouth 10% who live on the forum are the ones who got these guys voted into their positions. So you tell me. How in the world did they "hear our voices"?
This is gross misrepresentation, and it's not the first time ALPA would be considered guilty of it.
The vocal minority here are a complete embarrassment to the 90% of us who understand we can't have our cake and eat it too. The worst part is thinking that SWAPA and Gary Kelly now view me as a greedy bastard, because apparently my "MEC speaks for me"...yeah, right.
I actually sent them an email asking what I should wear tomorrow, since I can't make decisions for myself.
Still fuming...and will be for a long time.
Here's to hoping cooler and more rational heads prevail.

Take care.
​

 

[Nindiri]

I don't see it as unreasonable at all for the 717's to get fenced off at your current pay. I find it laughable that you all are crying "B-scale!", after that's exactly what your MEC tried to enact for 175 of your FO's, with two more years longevity than SWA FO's. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. And that's just one prospect you face.

You don't think it will happen? Fine, think what you want. All I know is that the word here is that both Gary and Herb were on a conference call over these events, and they both had to be unscrewed from the ceiling. I wouldn't be feeling very cocky if I was the average gum-chewing AT pilot right now.

hehe "Unscrewed from the ceiling". I like that.

Still, I'm amazed that some SWA pilots are so angry, they're willing to pay their own new hire pilots less on the 717 just to punish AT pilots. You don't see mindless rage like that everyday.

 

[freightdogfred]

If the pay rates are fenced off, that's GK's decision. He does what's best for the company and so be it. It may be a factor in senior FO's not wanting to bid over, but then they shouldn't whine about not being able to upgrade.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

hehe "Unscrewed from the ceiling". I like that.

Still, I'm amazed that some SWA pilots are so angry, they're willing to pay their own new hire pilots less on the 717 just to punish AT pilots. You don't see mindless rage like that everyday.

Not only new hires, but their own FO's when they upgrade on 717 after fances fall off.

 

[Flycatcher99]

hehe "Unscrewed from the ceiling". I like that.

Still, I'm amazed that some SWA pilots are so angry, they're willing to pay their own new hire pilots less on the 717 just to punish AT pilots. You don't see mindless rage like that everyday.

Who said our newhires would have to go to the 717's? They don't deserve that treatment. You need to get with the program here. There are many possibilities.

 

[freightdogfred]

Who said our newhires would have to go to the 717's? They don't deserve that treatment. You need to get with the program here. There are many possibilities.

What is the program? Are we not going to Mediation in the last week of August, and if no deal is reached then binding arbitration? What are these possibilities you speak of?

 

[Flycatcher99]

From the sounds of the SWAPA forum, our guys are running into many, many AAI pilots who are furious with their union, for not giving them a chance to vote. As bad as the AAI reps and MC have come off in this whole deal, it looks like it could get even uglier.

 

[Nindiri]

Who said our newhires would have to go to the 717's? They don't deserve that treatment. You need to get with the program here. There are many possibilities.

lol :laugh: Unless SWA plans to operate them single-pilot, you're going to HAVE to put new-hires or current SWA pilots in the right seat. I realize that SWA guys have a cowboy reputation in the industry, but I doubt they want to go that far.

 

[Flycatcher99]

lol :laugh: Unless SWA plans to operate them single-pilot, you're going to HAVE to put new-hires or current SWA pilots in the right seat. I realize that SWA guys have a cowboy reputation in the industry, but I doubt they want to go that far.

I said there are many possibilities. I'm not predicting anything...only speculating. Who said we end up keeping all of them? Gary doesn't have to keep the 717's indefinitely. And he certainly doesn't have to unfence them from the rest of the fleet. All an arbitrator will do is issue a list. That leave many creative possibilities to Gary & Co.

Like I said earlier, I might not be feeling so cocky if I were an AT line guy, and in fact, I might even be feeling a bit of apprehension, knowing how pissed Gary and Herb are right now. Read the account from an AT guy I pasted above. Laugh on, if you want, but it may get ugly.

 

[Sacha]

What is the program? Are we not going to Mediation in the last week of August, and if no deal is reached then binding arbitration? What are these possibilities you speak of?

I'll give you a hint. Late 1980's. Frank Lorenzo. Texas air Corp.
Non union Continental grows. Union Eastern shrinks. Easy.
Why have one large unhappy family when you can have 3/4 of the family happy and 1/4 unhappy. Especially when the 1/4 part of the family is going to be unhappy no matter what you do. Keep em separate and let them shrink away to nothing. Problem solved but the assets are still in place. Why do I believe this could happen? Because I was on the shrinking side and ultimately there wasn't a damn thing we could do about it. And we had a ton of money behind us and a lot smarter group of people at Eastern ALPA and ALPA National than you do and we still lost at every turn. That is the possibility that I see. Give Gary and Herb the finger at your own peril. Based on my experience at Eastern and my many great years here, I think you guys are f'ing crazy.