Airtran MEC voted no

[Lear70]

Wow. I've got my popcorn out. Fly-by-cable, do you care to reply? Lear?

Why? It will just be thrown back in our face again as "You're lying."

The simple FACT is, in front of about 250 or so line pilots, the ENTIRE MEC, including ALL status reps, Sec/Treas from each domicile, the Chairman, Vice-Chairman, MEC Sec/Treas, Neg Comm Chair, Merger Committee, ALPA EVP, and 2 Senior ALPA Attorneys, the MEC explained what happened in Dallas the weekend the AIP was agreed to and went into the EXACT detail that Fly-By-Wire posted above that has been called "a lie".

NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THE ROOM SAID THAT ACCOUNT WASN'T ACCURATE. NOT ONE. Make no mistake, when one of the reps said the one thing in that account that wasn't agreed with (who called who on Saturday morning), they got into a BIG tit-for-tat, but on the IMPORTANT POINTS ABOVE, not one single person among the people in our leadership who were FOR the agreement spoke up and said that account was incorrect.

So our entire leadership, including the MC who brought this thing and believed in it, agree with the account Fly-By-Wire posted of how it happened. You may not like that. SWAPA may not like it. No one's asking you to. But to insist that it's a "lie" is really not your position to make.

I also find it amusing that people assume that "the big evil nasty MEC council wanted to vote this down and was just looking for an excuse". The fact is the vote was 6-2 IN FAVOR in the week before the MEC meeting. MEC officers were defending this thing just as ardently as the MC up 'til the end when the pilots got out and convinced their reps to kill it.

Sorry for the reality check, we now return you to your regular FlightInfo programming.

 

[slaquer5]

AT pilots would certainly have no reason to be angry after a favorable arbitration award.

Now SWA pilots clearly have a bigger problem on their hands, having backed themselves into this unfortunate corner. Obviously, any arbitration award is going to be less favorable to them, so the question is how will they react as the inevitable integration continues and they have to fly with their new coworkers. Are they willing to shake hands and move on, or will they poison the culture and work environment, as some of them have threatened on this board?

That is exactly how I see the AT pilots seeing this . The alpa spin. So I will ask again, how is AT going to react . What if the outcome is far worse than what Gary proposed ?

I personally think the AT group as a whole will try to burn the SWA house down, but I hope i am wrong.

 

[scoreboardII]

Why? It will just be thrown back in our face again as "You're lying."
Sorry for the reality check, we now return you to your regular FlightInfo programming.

I'll save everyone the time, you're lieing.

Very telling when you try to sway opinion with the fact that ONLY 250 loud individuals affected the livelehoods and rights of 1700 dues paying members.

I trust Rob with my life, you, the invisible man behind the curtain, not so much.

See you in court.

 

[slaquer5]

You are kidding right? Please tell me that this ******************************-bag isn't part of their NC or MEC. That might explain a few things but it would be scary for the Airtran guys none the less........No....No way. I guess I missed the sarcasm.

No sadly he. Is part of there MEC/ NC

Sad to see what he is doing to a lot of families.

 

[Red Baron]

AT pilots would certainly have no reason to be angry after a favorable arbitration award.

Now SWA pilots clearly have a bigger problem on their hands, having backed themselves into this unfortunate corner. Obviously, any arbitration award is going to be less favorable to them, so the question is how will they react as the inevitable integration continues and they have to fly with their new coworkers. Are they willing to shake hands and move on, or will they poison the culture and work environment, as some of them have threatened on this board?

Enough of the questions about how will pilots react. We are all grown adults. I believe being professionals in our respective field should answer that question. Why get hung-up on if shaking hands or not. Don't worry about it. I got over age 65. It took me a few years. :bawling:

I totally disagree with you on us "backing into this unfortunate corner." We didn't reject a vote. We didn't have a chance one way or another.

RB

 

[Nindiri]

That is exactly how I see the AT pilots seeing this . The alpa spin. So I will ask again, how is AT going to react . What if the outcome is far worse than what Gary proposed ?

I personally think the AT group as a whole will try to burn the SWA house down, but I hope i am wrong.

How will AT pilots react? Quite well, I would think, since arbitration and the subsequent integration will be favorable to them. In any event, AT pilots have made it clear that the reults of arbitration, good or bad, will be final for them, and it will be time to move on and get to work with our new coworkers.

I'm concerned about the SWA pilots, though. Virtually all of them on the boards here are threatening to poison the culture and create a hostile environment, even if it hurts their own company. It's almost an obsession with them, with several of them posting about how they wish ill fortune on the AT pilots. Very disturbing. At some point, if they continue this nasty spiral out of control, I'm afraid that GK will have to address the problem.

 

[Kingwood]

Lear...Longtime lurker and moderate SWA pilot...think part of our majority...dude, this should've gone to your pilots for a vote if they were 6-2...pitiful reaction to sqeaky wheels...we let ours vent for weeks but stayed firm while waiting for you guys to get it together...your MEC flipflop just galvanized our ENTIRE pilot union...unless by some miracle this is resolved (which I promise will not involve anymore concessions from SWAPA) prior to arbitration, you guys are in for years and years of disappointment, no threat, just reality....back to lurking....good luck!

 

[Nindiri]

I totally disagree with you on us "backing into this unfortunate corner." We didn't reject a vote. We didn't have a chance one way or another.

RB

No, it's pointless to try to blame AT pilots for this corner you've backed yourselves into. Perhaps if your SWAPA leaders had not loudly and consistently promised SWA pilots nothing less than a near staple of AT pilots, you would have left yourselves some room to maneuver and wouldn't be in this mess today. Most unfortunate.

 

[shootr]

Now SWA pilots clearly have a bigger problem on their hands, having backed themselves into this unfortunate corner. Obviously, any arbitration award is going to be less favorable to them, so the question is how will they react as the inevitable integration continues and they have to fly with their new coworkers.

I would say that it's not obvious. Maybe possible or maybe even more likely than not. NOTHING is decided, yet.

I don't fear abritration and never have. I was possibly willing to agree with what was negotiated upon because of risk management. A career is too big of a thing to risk with certain gains. There WERE certain gains for both sides with the AIP. NOTHING is certain for either side in arbitration.

shootr

 

[PCL_128]

That is exactly how I see the AT pilots seeing this . The alpa spin. So I will ask again, how is AT going to react . What if the outcome is far worse than what Gary proposed ?

We will accept it and move on. To mirror what Captain Chase said, "we honor our agreements."

 

[Lear70]

I'll save everyone the time, you're lieing.

Very telling when you try to sway opinion with the fact that ONLY 250 loud individuals affected the livelehoods and rights of 1700 dues paying members.

I trust Rob with my life, you, the invisible man behind the curtain, not so much.

See you in court.

He has his opinion. You have yours. I have mine. I was there and heard it with my own two ears. I challenge any other person WHO WAS ACTUALLY THERE to contact me personally and say differently.

There were a lot of dissenting comments between the leadership that day. But not one of then disagrees with how it went down.

Believe who you want. It's irrelevant at this point.

 

[Red Baron]

No, it's pointless to try to blame AT pilots for this corner you've backed yourselves into. Perhaps if your SWAPA leaders had not loudly and consistently promised SWA pilots nothing less than a near staple of AT pilots, you would have left yourselves some room to maneuver and wouldn't be in this mess today. Most unfortunate.

I am not blaming the AT pilots. I am referring to your personal remark. I don't believe we as a group have backed ourselves into a corner. You are insinuating that we did. I am in disagreement with YOUR perception.

I got a game to watch!

RB

 

[SkiFishFly]

Why? It will just be thrown back in our face again as "You're lying."

The simple FACT is, in front of about 250 or so line pilots, the ENTIRE MEC, including ALL status reps, Sec/Treas from each domicile, the Chairman, Vice-Chairman, MEC Sec/Treas, Neg Comm Chair, Merger Committee, ALPA EVP, and 2 Senior ALPA Attorneys, the MEC explained what happened in Dallas the weekend the AIP was agreed to and went into the EXACT detail that Fly-By-Wire posted above that has been called "a lie".

NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THE ROOM SAID THAT ACCOUNT WASN'T ACCURATE. NOT ONE. Make no mistake, when one of the reps said the one thing in that account that wasn't agreed with (who called who on Saturday morning), they got into a BIG tit-for-tat, but on the IMPORTANT POINTS ABOVE, not one single person among the people in our leadership who were FOR the agreement spoke up and said that account was incorrect.

So our entire leadership, including the MC who brought this thing and believed in it, agree with the account Fly-By-Wire posted of how it happened. You may not like that. SWAPA may not like it. No one's asking you to. But to insist that it's a "lie" is really not your position to make.

I also find it amusing that people assume that "the big evil nasty MEC council wanted to vote this down and was just looking for an excuse". The fact is the vote was 6-2 IN FAVOR in the week before the MEC meeting. MEC officers were defending this thing just as ardently as the MC up 'til the end when the pilots got out and convinced their reps to kill it.

Sorry for the reality check, we now return you to your regular FlightInfo programming.

That is pretty much exactly how I heard it. Don't think either Lear or Fly-by-Wire are lying. Perhaps certain events were perceived differently depending on which side of the negotiating table you were on. That whole message garbled after repeat transmissions thing.

 

[SkiFishFly]

NOTHING is certain for either side in arbitration.

shootr

True. Some on our side pointed out we might do worse the the AIP in arbitration.

 

[Nindiri]

I am not blaming the AT pilots. I am referring to your personal remark. I don't believe we as a group have backed ourselves into a corner. You are insinuating that we did. I am in disagreement with YOUR perception.

I got a game to watch!

RB

You may not call it a corner, but SWAPA has clearly left itself no good options. Having promised a staple that they can't deliver, they now have an angry mob of SWA pilots to deal with.

 

[canyonblue]

Obviously, any arbitration award is going to be less favorable to them.........

Sooo clueless, sooo sad.

 

[redflyer65]

You may not call it a corner, but SWAPA has clearly left itself no good options. Having promised a staple that they can't deliver, they now have an angry mob of SWA pilots to deal with.

Nindiri,

What are you smoking dude. SWAPA never promised anyone a staple, or any such terms....plain and simple. Please stick with the facts.

RF

 

[Nindiri]

Yes, they definitely promised a staple, or near staple. SWA pilots have made that clear on this board.

Why did SWAPA make such a reckless promise?

 

[redflyer65]

Lear,

I'm confused about the timeline that Fly By discusses. He states that the MC was headed out of Dallas when called by Gary Kelly to discuss other options.

I thought the 'Gary Kelly' meeting was pushed back a week from the original date. How could the MC be held hostage in Dallas when this meeting was known to ALL parties? Are we talking about two meetings?

RF

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

No sadly he. Is part of there MEC/ NC

Sad to see what he is doing to a lot of families.

Of course I'm not on MEC or MC. Only your leaders fire off statements in the heat of moment that later will be used against them. Like SC's e-mail that has 2 such points.
1. We were gonna buy their seniority.
2. We will abide by Process Agreement.

As for Rob Zerbe, out 5 of his bullet points only 1 is a fact that I also posted....no lawyers were in the room. The rest 4 about good faith, and MEC screwing us, are just his perception - not facts.

BTW no secret negotiation table information here, just a time line of how events unfolded. (public record)

To Rob: Are you denying the fact that our MC walked out of negotiations with intent to take this to the next step - Mediation? And if Gary didn't call them back there would no deal to argue about now. Doesn't seem like SWAPA deserves a whole lot of credit for negotiating in "good faith."

 

[Tripower455]

Yes, they definitely promised a staple, or near staple. SWA pilots have made that clear on this board.

Why did SWAPA make such a reckless promise?

SWAPA never promised us a staple, in fact, they didn't even try to get one.

 

[redflyer65]

Yes, they definitely promised a staple, or near staple. SWA pilots have made that clear on this board.

Why did SWAPA make such a reckless promise?

Where did they see that? I've kept myself pretty informed on this stuff and I haven't seen or heard any of it. As a matter of fact they said that a staple wouldn't happen. There goal was no SWAPA pilot harmed, and that was basically meant to compensate for the younger AAI pilots with regard to upgrade.

The disconnect with the SW pilots came in the way the AIP looked. The SWAPA guys really didn't telegraph anything about how this proposal would be structured. That's it.

RF

 

[AlbieF15]

I'm completely on the sidelines on this whole issue, but with some friends as both places as I listen here is what I hear:

1. Airtran pilots in general do not believe the gain in pay and benefits offset the drop in relative seniority

2. SWA pilots feel that the pay bump and chance to be in a better culture more than
offsets any seniority loss

3. Airtran pilots believe they won't do "much if any worse..." in an arbitration

4. SWA pilots believe the CEO may not integrate the carrier as quickly as the Airtran guys think will happen, if at all, and do not think arbitration will hurt them.

5. If the arbitration list isn't good, SWA pilots believe the company will simply keep AirTran as a separate entity verses risking upsetting the current labor climate.

Guys--am I missing anything?

Outside looking in, what I see is a bunch of SWA pilots who are convinced their CEO won't "sell them out" and accept a merger if it penalizes too many of the SWA faithful. The argument I keep hearing is "dad isn't going to like this..." and "dad won't let this happen..."

I have zero idea what will happen, and I sure wish all of you the best of luck on the backside of this. But it sure seems to me every SWA guy saying "it ain't gonna happen..." is betting GK is going to do all he can to keep his pilots happy. The million dollar question is will he? In 1988, the old FedEx Flight Crew Handbook indicated if FedEx bought another company ALL those pilots would be stapled. When the 1989 Flying Tigers purchase/merger occurred, FedEx merged the group with an arbitrator by the name of Nicolau. (Yes...the same guy...) FedEx pilots whined, complained, sued, and eventually even unionized a few years after the merger, something many original Purple pilots said would never happen. After losing faith that Fred Smith "had their backs...", a union suddenly didn't seem so bad.

I have no idea what GK will do, but if you REALLY want to see bitterness, watch what happens if GK breaks the faith with his own team. The wrath SWA has towards any outsiders will spread to not only outsiders but some of their own management. If I were a SWAPA leader, I'd be reminding management daily they've got one shot to "do the right thing...".

Can't understand anyone's complaint with ALPA, its the Airtran MEC and their pilots that are making the decisions here. ALPA has nothing to gain poking SWAPA. In fact, considering the success Lee Moak's ALPA MEC at Delta had with their merger with NWA, I'd be working hard to emulate what they did (buy labor peace with extra money for EVERYONE).

Garry Kelly is the key to this whole thing. I hope he is as loyal to you guys as you are to him. Time is going to tell....

 

[redflyer65]

Well stated Albie, and right on point. I'll add..

Mr Kelly is most likely weighing his options not only regarding this pilot integration, but looking down the road to every other work group here. This is just the tip of the spear with regards to the rest of the labor groups. To be honest, it sets the tone. And the tone doesn't look very good at this point.

RF

 

[Nindiri]

Where did they see that? I've kept myself pretty informed on this stuff and I haven't seen or heard any of it. As a matter of fact they said that a staple wouldn't happen. There goal was no SWAPA pilot harmed, and that was basically meant to compensate for the younger AAI pilots with regard to upgrade.

The disconnect with the SW pilots came in the way the AIP looked. The SWAPA guys really didn't telegraph anything about how this proposal would be structured. That's it.

RF

Yes, they definitely promised a staple or near staple. SWA pilots on here like Willie Nelson, Bravodude, the guy with the Einstein avatar whatever his name was, and others have confirmed numerous times here that their friends and connections in SWAPA have assured them of a staple. And they've made it clear here that they expect this promise to be kept; just a day ago, Bravodude promised to burn the house down if he didn't get his way.

This is not a good situation for SWAPA, or for anyone else involved.

 

[canyonblue]

Can't understand anyone's complaint with ALPA....

Albie, first off, nice post. Second, as a former ALPA member who had no problem with the Union, I find ALPA to be a hated entity at SWA. And this is not a new revelation, it has been that way here forever. If you want an idea of just how much the majority of pilots dislike ALPA, just insert HITLER in place of ALPA in any sentence.

 

[scoreboardII]

This is just the tip of the spear with regards to the rest of the labor groups. To be honest, it sets the tone. And the tone doesn't look very good at this point.

RF

And the pilots at SWA are the "easy ones" to get a deal from, if this fails in a negotiated settlement, the rest of the unions burn this deal to the ground.

Albie, spot on, GK has the ball, lets see what the QB does with it.

 

[GuppyWN]

Of course I'm not on MEC or MC. Only your leaders fire off statements in the heat of moment that later will be used against them. Like SC's e-mail that has 2 such points.
1. We were gonna buy their seniority.
2. We will abide by Process Agreement.

1. Your MC already agreed that your seniority had a monetary value.
2. Mediation is scheduled for next month.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

Yes, they definitely promised a staple or near staple. SWA pilots on here like Willie Nelson, Bravodude, the guy with the Einstein avatar whatever his name was, and others have confirmed numerous times here that their friends and connections in SWAPA have assured them of a staple. And they've made it clear here that they expect this promise to be kept; just a day ago, Bravodude promised to burn the house down if he didn't get his way.

This is not a good situation for SWAPA, or for anyone else involved.

Just so we are clear. I am fine with a staple.

Gup

 

[Fly4$]

I think the question should be asked, how will SWA and AT. React. Why would you assume only SWA pilots will have a response ?


I believe the answer lies ,of what alpa has put out to the AT pilots.[/QUOTE]

99% of us would accept the ruling and happily move on. Still not sure what SWAPA is so upset about. I wasn't under the impression the negotiated deal was very popular. I think both sides may come out better in arbitration or perhaps mediation. It will be simpler, and decided by a neutral party.