AirTran MEC CYA

[tankerhead]

Hey, what's the min days off for a SWA reserve line?

 

[FDJ2]

You mean the magnificent seven didn't have anything to do with it?

I think ALPA pulled the rug out from underneath you more than SW did.

Gary stated he wanted a negotiated agreement. Both sides agreed to one (in principle). The MEC sounded astonished with the agreement, which is really bizarre. The MEC wanted one thing......arbitration. That it, that's one of the reasons it took them a month to decide what to do. Complete stall tactic plain and simple.

They decided to back Gary in a corner and he acted accordingly. Go back to point number one....he wanted a negotiated agreement. It's called BATNA and the AAI MEC didn't understand it.

The first shot on the agreement (no matter what it might have looked like) was going to be the best. It looks like the MEC understood this, but the MEC didn't.

There is no negotiated agreement when a gun is held to one's head. That's not negotiations, that's not BATNA, that's coercion and extortion. You like the extortion of seniority in this instance, because you benefited from it.

It's real simple. There was a process to be followed, which included arbitration if a negotiated agreement could not be reached. That process was abrogated through the use of threats. The Airtran pilots were denied a fair and impartial process. Because they were denied a fair process, many of them will feel that their seniority was stolen from them and handed to another. You're OK with it because you benefited at their expense, but IMO it will poison your pilot group for the rest of your career. Good luck with that.

 

[Phlintstone]

You mean the magnificent seven didn't have anything to do with it?

They failed to provide an absolute minimum deal that could be taken to the group. They just said, "get what you can." The MC did just that. If they would've provided a little leadership the MC would not have brought back the deal and continued to negotiate. When they rejected the negotiated deal, it was a failure of the whole process.

I think ALPA pulled the rug out from underneath you more than SW did.

You always say this like ALPA National had something to do with it. They did NOTHING other than provide a lawyer who did not provide much...my view from the bleacher seats.

Gary stated he wanted a negotiated agreement. Both sides agreed to one (in principle). The MEC sounded astonished with the agreement, which is really bizarre.

A negotiated agreement is always a good thing if it is fair. There are a lot of folks that do not feel it is fair. Is that a good thing for the kulture?

The MEC was astonished because they were not kept up to speed on the talks. The MEC was "hands off" when it came to the MC and that was about stupid because there needed to be oversight.

They decided to back Gary in a corner and he acted accordingly.

It had nothing to do with backing him into a corner. It was all about how bad the deal was and how the MEC was flooded with a "Just say NO" chant. This just shows how you do not and can not see how you AT viewed the process. Nothing against you, just that you write things that just are not entirely true.

The first shot on the agreement (no matter what it might have looked like) was going to be the best. It looks like the MEC understood this, but the MEC didn't.

You ended up being correct but you have to understand that your advice was coming from the opposing side of the aisle. It is like a shady used car salesman saying "This is the beast deal you are going to get." Do you just take it or do you want him to get the manager?


Red you really need to quit spouting about how the process went from the AT view since you do not understand the dynamics and gyrations of the AT side of the fence.

Phred

 

[maxblast72]

There is no negotiated agreement when a gun is held to one's head. That's not negotiations, that's not BATNA, that's coercion and extortion. You like the extortion of seniority in this instance, because you benefited from it.

While there was not much negotiating involved with SIA #2, there were serious negotiations for SIA #1. SIA #1 would have passed the AirTran pilot group by a much wider margin than the Southwest pilot group.

I am in possession of an email from one of our most radical forum guys to the Merger Committee Vice Chair stating he would have voted yes to SIA #1. If he would have voted yes, SIA #1 would have passed on the AirTran side with at least a 90% vote in favor.

Both the AirTran and Southwest pilots had unrealistic arbitration expectations. The NMB arbitrators in both the AirTran-Southwest dispatchers and rampers arbitration awards said this wasn't a merger of equals and awarded quite a bit lower than DOH for the AirTran employee groups.

Some blame the Merger Committee. Some blame the Magnificent Seven. Others blame Gary Kelly. It is what it is. Time to move on. Most of the FOs and FAs I fly with are tired of listening to $180K/year AirTran Captains bitch for 4 days straight.

 

[maxblast72]

The MEC was astonished because they were not kept up to speed on the talks. The MEC was "hands off" when it came to the MC and that was about stupid because there needed to be oversight.

The MEC was hands off because the Merger Committee Chair and Vice Chair had way more political capital in the tanks than any of the MEC voting reps. The ATL MEC reps found this out the hard way when they were recalled in September 2011.

 

[Phlintstone]

The MEC was hands off because the Merger Committee Chair and Vice Chair had way more political capital in the tanks than any of the MEC voting reps. The ATL MEC reps found this out the hard way when they were recalled in September 2011.

Exactly right. The MEC was a dysfunctional group and they showed how bad they were many times. A good MEC, with good leadership, and a responsible MC/NC would've done better. Unfortunately we did not have any of it.

Phred

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

The other employee group's arbitrated awards rightfully gave SW employees a higher position relative to the former AT employees. You guys keep saying you would have done better in arbitration. You are counting on a law uncontested (so far) in court that you think would have helped you.

In reality, without that remote possibility, and without leaning on the supposed outcome based on B-M, you would have been lucky to all make the bottom of the list! Just like EVERY pilot to ever come to SWA before you.

So talk about poisoning the workgroup all you want, but the only problem is YOU and your crazy expectations.

 

[Phlintstone]

So talk about poisoning the workgroup all you want, but the only problem is YOU and your crazy expectations.

That is the funniest statement of the week right there. Were you the FO who would not even say good morning to me the other day? Let me give you an update there frog boy, you are part of the problem too.

Phred

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

That is the funniest statement of the week right there. Were you the FO who would not even say good morning to me the other day? Let me give you an update there frog boy, you are part of the problem too.

Phred

Wasn't me. I'm always friendly. I'm just tired of listneing to the whining.

 

[IslandDriver]

Hey, what's the min days off for a SWA reserve line?

15 days on during a 30 day or 31 day month and 14 on during a 28 day month......

Trust me been on reserve better part of 5 years...looks like 5 more coming!

ID

 

[FDJ2]

The other employee group's arbitrated awards rightfully gave SW employees a higher position relative to the former AT employees. You guys keep saying you would have done better in arbitration. You are counting on a law uncontested (so far) in court that you think would have helped you.

In reality, without that remote possibility, and without leaning on the supposed outcome based on B-M, you would have been lucky to all make the bottom of the list! Just like EVERY pilot to ever come to SWA before you.

So talk about poisoning the workgroup all you want, but the only problem is YOU and your crazy expectations.

No need for B-M when a transition agreement is honored by all sides. Both "negotiated/extorted" agreements were spawned though coercion and therefore by definition they are not agreements.

Too bad the list wasn't a result of a clean and fair process.

I can understand why you wouldn't want a highly experienced neutral arbitrator to listen to both sides of the story, you prefer the result of a coerced deal that took captain seats from one pilot group and awarded them to another. JMHO from a distance.

 

[waveflyer]

That is the funniest statement of the week right there. Were you the FO who would not even say good morning to me the other day? Let me give you an update there frog boy, you are part of the problem too.

Phred

No phred.

I don't agree with his staple comment-

But the angst from AT is ABSOLUTELY the out of touch unrealistic expectations.

I've heard from way too many AT pilots who honestly believed DOH would be their worst case scenario.

That's not rational.

 

[waveflyer]

Hey FDJ-
Aren't you a delta pilot?

 

[Just thinking]

The other employee group's arbitrated awards rightfully gave SW employees a higher position relative to the former AT employees. You guys keep saying you would have done better in arbitration. You are counting on a law uncontested (so far) in court that you think would have helped you.

In reality, without that remote possibility, and without leaning on the supposed outcome based on B-M, you would have been lucky to all make the bottom of the list! Just like EVERY pilot to ever come to SWA before you.

So talk about poisoning the workgroup all you want, but the only problem is YOU and your crazy expectations.

Were you the SWA FO who made an azz of himself by making the idiotic comment to the VP boarding the aircraft about the "Airtran" people. (The VP is former Airtran) Are you passing out the poison pills?

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Were you the SWA FO who made an azz of himself by making the idiotic comment to the VP boarding the aircraft about the "Airtran" people. (The VP is former Airtran) Are you passing out the poison pills?

Keep thinking..

 

[Phlintstone]

No phred.

I don't agree with his staple comment-

But the angst from AT is ABSOLUTELY the out of touch unrealistic expectations.

I've heard from way too many AT pilots who honestly believed DOH would be their worst case scenario.

That's not rational.

I've heard that from many CAs too. I really do not think that would've been the award either but...we will never know. No use debating it. But AT guys are not the entire problem. People like him (on boths sides) are the problem.

Phred

 

[PCL_128]

I've heard from way too many AT pilots who honestly believed DOH would be their worst case scenario.

That's not rational.

We'll see. These past couple of weeks, the CAL Merger Committee has essentially been making the exact same arguments that your side was making. "We were in much better financial shape." "Our balance sheet was much stronger." "We were paid a lot more." "The contract gains that they got from the merger were significant." And so on, and so on. The same stuff you were saying. And from these arguments, they've crafted a proposal that gives most UAL pilots a significant relative seniority hit. So, we'll see in a few short months how much those arguments really hold up in front of a panel of three very experienced arbitrators, including the very same chairman of the panel that we would have had in our case. My prediction? The same thing that would have happened in our case: ratio by status and category.

Your arguments are being put to the test in a real arbitration scenario. Want to place any wagers on their effectiveness?

 

[waveflyer]

Apples to oranges PCL
Let me research it more to see the applicability-

But offhand, a) united had lots of furloughs at the time
b) the discrepancy between contracts wasnt as great as ours were
c) no airline compares to SWA- nobody else has pilots leave legacy widebody jobs to come work for a 737 operator, no other 737 size operator makes the money we make (widebody wages for the pilots and sustained profitability as a company)

I see continental and united as much more equitable jobs than SWA v AT

But I'm sure that will be labeled arrogant

We all know these things cycle, especially among alpa carriers bc pattern bargaining is their design-
SWA has almost always been a good company, but not always the best job-
What it is now and has been for sometime before the acquisition is the best passenger flying job in aviation- key words- at the time of the purchase-

You got a good deal PCL- your self created outrage is a joke

And so is the idea that you would've got relative

(Ty- see?^^^^)

 

[canyonblue]

Apples to oranges PCL
Let me research it more to see the applicability-

And how many guys left United to go to Cal. Apples and oranges would at least be around the same size fruit. I would go with an Apple to a grape.

 

[Skyboy722]

PCL,
Arbitrators have already heard the SWA vs AT arguments, with all the other work groups that went to arbitration. We already know how that turned out.

 

[PCL_128]

But offhand, a) united had lots of furloughs at the time

Which means that the CAL argument is only more sound, not less. And yet, I'm betting the panel will put little emphasis on the arguments that UAL was a weaker carrier.

b) the discrepancy between contracts wasnt as great as ours were

CAL narrowbody pilots had better payrates than UAL widebody pilots. The JCBA saw 30% pay raises for many UAL pilots, while raises were modest for CAL pilots.

But to your point, while the CBA discrepancies weren't as big as they were between SWA and ATN, the seniority proposal that they're making isn't as onerous, either. While SWAPA would have had our pilots lose more than 32% relative seniority, the CAL proposal only results in UAL pilots losing something like 10%. So while the CBA discrepancies are less significant, the proposed relative seniority hit is proportional to them. If your arguments were going to have merit before a panel, then the CAL argument should prevail, and the UAL pilots should take a relative seniority hit. My prediction is that the average loss of relative seniority comes out to less than 2%, meaning that the panel puts virtually no weight on your style of arguments.

c) no airline compares to SWA

But I'm sure that will be labeled arrogant

You answered that one for me.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,
Arbitrators have already heard the SWA vs AT arguments, with all the other work groups that went to arbitration. We already know how that turned out.

Are you not aware that arbitral precedent is different in other crafts and classes? Are you not aware that seniority affects the lives of pilots differently than it affects that the lives of dispatchers?

 

[redflyer65]

We'll see. These past couple of weeks, the CAL Merger Committee has essentially been making the exact same arguments that your side was making. "We were in much better financial shape." "Our balance sheet was much stronger." "We were paid a lot more." "The contract gains that they got from the merger were significant." And so on, and so on. The same stuff you were saying. And from these arguments, they've crafted a proposal that gives most UAL pilots a significant relative seniority hit. So, we'll see in a few short months how much those arguments really hold up in front of a panel of three very experienced arbitrators, including the very same chairman of the panel that we would have had in our case. My prediction? The same thing that would have happened in our case: ratio by status and category.

Your arguments are being put to the test in a real arbitration scenario. Want to place any wagers on their effectiveness?

UAL/CAL similiar to SWA/AAI.

You've got to be kidding me.

I like your ratio and status mantra. It probably would have been around 8:1 ratio with the arbitration and the 'status' on the 717 would have quickly drifted away along with the aircraft.

So in your world PCL, this was a merger of equals?

 

[PCL_128]

I like your ratio and status mantra. It probably would have been around 8:1 ratio with the arbitration and the 'status' on the 717 would have quickly drifted away along with the aircraft.

We both know that you don't believe that, or you wouldn't have been so adamant to avoid arbitration. Your desperate attempts to short-circuit the process belie your bravado.

So in your world PCL, this was a merger of equals?

Absolutely. One group of narrowbody pilots merging with another.

 

[redflyer65]

PCL,

Let me be very clear....I never feared arbitration. I was much more comfortable arguing the case of career earnings and overall company differences to an arbitor. Just like the other work groups did and you see exactly how that turned out.

So with your narrowbody vs narrowbody arguement, you would feel the same way if Airtran would have bought....maybe Allegiant? All things being equal...right? or better yet Kalitta (and they have widebodies!)

The arbitration panel would have easily seen thru a very, very thin arguement like that and looked at the facts. Not even close to equals. They would have definitely factored in how many apps were on file at both carriers from the other. Those are actually relevant facts in a case like this. It plainly shows how many AAI guys were willing to give their AAI employee number away and be stapled voluntarily. (and there were alot)

The evidence presented would have overwhelmingly favored SW and you are smart enought to know that.

 

[labatt]

Quote:
So in your world PCL, this was a merger of equals?

Absolutely. One group of narrowbody pilots merging with another.

If that were true, you'd have at least a few SWA guys applying and leaving for ATN. To the best of my knowledge, that had never happened. How many ATN guys had apps in at SWA and were prepared to leave? Probably several hundred.

The day before the merger announcement, you interview 100 regional pilots and "give" them an identical class date at SWA & ATN. 95 would pick SWA.

 

[PCL_128]

So with your narrowbody vs narrowbody arguement, you would feel the same way if Airtran would have bought....maybe Allegiant? All things being equal...right? or better yet Kalitta (and they have widebodies!)

Absolutely. And this isn't just an academic question. Joe Leonard was in the process of purchasing Midwest, and you didn't hear a peep from our pilots about anything but a fair integration. No rhetoric about how their carrier was failing, how their pilots were leaving for other carriers, etc. The expectation from our pilots was largely relative seniority. Why? Because we actually understand what the golden rule really is.

The evidence presented would have overwhelmingly favored SW and you are smart enought to know that.

We both know how wrong that is. Again, if you actually believed it, you would have been thrilled to go to arbitration instead of spending your every waking moment here on FI trying to convince us to cave.

 

[redflyer65]

The only thing I've been saying since day one is that Airtran MC should have made the best agreement up front.....because the CEO said on many occasions that he wanted a negotiated deal. You guys where tone-deaf I gues because the only thing you could see was arbitration. That's all you cared about. That didn't work out well for you, and I'm saying that sincerely. You guys should have never lost your CA seats but that...unfortunately is what happened.

How would your arguement have gone about the stability and career earnings at SW vs AAI?

 

[PCL_128]

The only thing I've been saying since day one is that Airtran MC should have made the best agreement up front.....because the CEO said on many occasions that he wanted a negotiated deal.

Yes, and AirTran's CEO said many times that he wanted us to work for less than industry standard wages, work rules, and benefits. What management "wants" means nothing to me. What they agreed to is what matters. And Gary agreed to a process that included arbitration.

You guys where tone-deaf I gues because the only thing you could see was arbitration. That's all you cared about. That didn't work out well for you, and I'm saying that sincerely.

How exactly did it not work out well for us? We didn't even get an opportunity to try it. What didn't work out well for us was putting an inexperienced MEC in place, an inexperienced Merger Committee, and recalling or pushing for resignations of almost everyone who actually did have experience. That was the mistake.

How would your arguement have gone about the stability and career earnings at SW vs AAI?

Based on past arbitral decisions, it would have factored virtually nothing into the panel's decision, so your question is irrelevant.

 

[texman]

Absolutely. And this isn't just an academic question. Joe Leonard was in the process of purchasing Midwest, and you didn't hear a peep from our pilots about anything but a fair integration. No rhetoric about how their carrier was failing, how their pilots were leaving for other carriers, etc. The expectation from our pilots was largely relative seniority. Why? Because we actually understand what the golden rule really is.



We both know how wrong that is. Again, if you actually believed it, you would have been thrilled to go to arbitration instead of spending your every waking moment here on FI trying to convince us to cave.

Well of course you guys wanted a fair integration with Midwest. The pilot group was so small it would work in your favor. With SWA not so much.