AirTran Furloughs coming

[MINIME]

gt1900,

While those challenges that you speak of are very real, the facts remain the same. Even if the AAI pilots flew for free, it would not make a difference in the outcome. Taking a paycut for pilots could end up costing that company more than what it set out to save.

Being that they already have one of the lowest payscales out there, this will only serve to enrage alot of pilots. With that comes lots of bad will, flying safe, not going the extra mile, turning flights around at others' pace, and a host of other issues. These small things have an enormous affect on the bottom line.

An airline like AAI needs the good will of its employees to survive. Their customers need to be won over, one by one. Bigger airlines like AMR, DAL, CAL, and perhaps UAL can afford to have some dissidence. I believe that the AAIs and JBLUEs of the world cannot. At AAI, employees can put a dent on that company considering fuel prices and the current operating environment.

LUV understands this part of the equation perhaps better than anyone operating today. That along with solid investments have paid off handsomely for them. DAL appears to be headed in that same direction. DAL and its combined pilots are making gains in a very difficult environment. That in itself goes to show that pilot expense is not something that breaks a company. Rather, it empowers pilots to operate in a manner which becomes beneficial to them and their employer.

Most CEOs worth their pay know this. They know that taking from employees will not solve their problems. They do it however, because the time is ripe for the taking. Those that are easily intimidated will stop at nothing to assure that their job does not go away. All the while, the CEO laughs straight to bank with his/her inflated bonus.

 

[Citrusflyer]

......With leftover seats, selling a seat for $49 is better then not selling that seat at all. Does that make sense? Besides, only a few seats are sold at the rediculously low rates. It really sort of manipulates the supply and demand curve. Some of those people will pay $49 for a seat, but they won't spend $75. Having them on board at $49 is better then not having them on board at all.....

gt1900,
Once upon a time I would have agreed whole-heartedly with that sentiment. However, when (considering our current average stage length) it takes almost $95 just to pay for the fuel to haul a "200 lb" pax to their destination I think that the argument of fire sale fares is a false one.

One person ponies up $49, but it costs us $95 in fuel to haul him, that puts us in the hole $46. Which means we have to make up that cost in other areas. Add $46 to one ticket; or, as from the logic of our own management team (i.e. not being able to sustain price hikes over $5 to $10 without loosing significant traffic) we'd have to spread out that cost over 4 to 7 other passengers.

You yourself said it was only 25 seats/flight with those low fares. Well, using the most conservative estimate ($10 over 4 passengers of "make-up" fare increases) you'd have to hike the fares of 100 seats to make up the 25 low fares. Which equates to break even on a 737, and a looser on a 717.

IMHO, it would be cheaper NOT to have that person in the seat, NOT have the "revenue" in that seat, and raise the LOWEST average fare to $100 to cover the price of fuel.

With the volatility of fuel prices I don't know why we don't just charge a low fare and then add a fuel subsidy to the price of the ticket based on the day the ticket was purchased (you know...those "surprise" add-ons that no one thinks about after the big purchase has already been made).

Again, I just fly the planes.....however, I'd like to keep doing that for a while longer.

 

[gt1900]

Minime..... I do agree with you. However, we should just look at the UAL guys to see how well flying angry worked out for them. It is best to work with the company, and have the company work with the employees. DAL has figured that one out. But remember, the DAL pilots used to be the highest payed pilots in the industry. The only reason they are now making gains in a highly difficult environment is because the DAL pilots took huge paycuts. I guarantee you if the pilots and managment hadn't worked together DAL would not exist today. The DAL pilots knew how to pick there battles. They gave up huge amounts of money to live to play another day. Not to long ago the DAL pilots were some of the most discruntled pilots out there. However, they did their job everyday without a slowdown, or trying to p1ss off the pax. The UAL pilots did there best to p1ss off everyone and now look at the position UAL is in (for the record, I blame the managment more, but the pilots were no saints). SWA is a poor example because they have the hedges to offset much of the higher fuel costs. I guarantee you though that if they were in the same position as AAI, the SWA pilots would take cuts to help save the company. My point is simply this. We can beat our chests all we want but right now is not the time to being playing tough guys. I would like to see managment take a bigger cut (around 25%) to show some good will, and NO FRIGGIN BONUSES. If AAI saves 12 million on employee costs, renegotiates A/C leases to save 15 million a year, and increased yeilds to gain an additional 20 million a year, we would have just cut the 100 million we are estimated to lose this year in half. All of these things add up. Lets face it, at current oil levels AAI has maybe 18 months of operational cash. If everyone, and I especially mean managment, chips in, AAI just might make it through to better times when we can renegotiate a great pay scale. I don't think a 6 month pay cut is the end of the world, but only if managment shows us a business plan that would actually get us through this mess. Right now they haven't, so obviously I'm not voting for a pay cut. But, if managment showed the pilot group a black and white business plan that would work, cuts are not out of the question. In this environment, airlines are going to fold. Its just a matter of who and when. I would like to make it through these times and see what happens when things turn around. Taking a 8-10% pay cut for 6 months or a year is no big deal if I get to keep my job for another 25 years. We need to remember the big picture. I do not want to start over. And lets face it, the job market aint exactly rosie for pilots right now. We as pilots need to remember that getting emotional will not solve anything. We need to use our heads. Right now pay cuts are out of the question, but with the right leadership, I would vote for them. Lets see if our managment is worth a chit...

 

[gt1900]

Citrus.... Your right, but lets face it, as pilots, we don't really have the perfect numbers to say whats exactly going on. For grins I looked up flight at the end of this month.. Atl-Bos and Atl Jax. The cheapest ATL-BOS ticket would be $99. But with the exception of the 9:30pm flight, the next cheapest direct flight is $201.. Look at the Jax tickets. Later in the day when demand is higher the ticket prices go up. They go from $69 to $139 for a flight to Jax. That tells me that AAI managment knows what flights have the highest demand and charge accordingly. None of us really know what the numbers are, so we are just speculating (friggen speculators). But the fact is that it seems AAI has a grasp on ticket prices and are trying very hard to increase revenue. We are all in for a wild ride, and our careers are in managments hands... Lets hope they do a good job..

 

[PCL_128]

Minime..... I do agree with you. However, we should just look at the UAL guys to see how well flying angry worked out for them. It is best to work with the company, and have the company work with the employees. DAL has figured that one out. But remember, the DAL pilots used to be the highest payed pilots in the industry. The only reason they are now making gains in a highly difficult environment is because the DAL pilots took huge paycuts. I guarantee you if the pilots and managment hadn't worked together DAL would not exist today. The DAL pilots knew how to pick there battles. They gave up huge amounts of money to live to play another day. Not to long ago the DAL pilots were some of the most discruntled pilots out there. However, they did their job everyday without a slowdown, or trying to p1ss off the pax. The UAL pilots did there best to p1ss off everyone and now look at the position UAL is in (for the record, I blame the managment more, but the pilots were no saints). SWA is a poor example because they have the hedges to offset much of the higher fuel costs. I guarantee you though that if they were in the same position as AAI, the SWA pilots would take cuts to help save the company. My point is simply this. We can beat our chests all we want but right now is not the time to being playing tough guys. I would like to see managment take a bigger cut (around 25%) to show some good will, and NO FRIGGIN BONUSES. If AAI saves 12 million on employee costs, renegotiates A/C leases to save 15 million a year, and increased yeilds to gain an additional 20 million a year, we would have just cut the 100 million we are estimated to lose this year in half. All of these things add up. Lets face it, at current oil levels AAI has maybe 18 months of operational cash. If everyone, and I especially mean managment, chips in, AAI just might make it through to better times when we can renegotiate a great pay scale. I don't think a 6 month pay cut is the end of the world, but only if managment shows us a business plan that would actually get us through this mess. Right now they haven't, so obviously I'm not voting for a pay cut. But, if managment showed the pilot group a black and white business plan that would work, cuts are not out of the question. In this environment, airlines are going to fold. Its just a matter of who and when. I would like to make it through these times and see what happens when things turn around. Taking a 8-10% pay cut for 6 months or a year is no big deal if I get to keep my job for another 25 years. We need to remember the big picture. I do not want to start over. And lets face it, the job market aint exactly rosie for pilots right now. We as pilots need to remember that getting emotional will not solve anything. We need to use our heads. Right now pay cuts are out of the question, but with the right leadership, I would vote for them. Lets see if our managment is worth a chit...

I don't care who the leadership is. No pay cuts!!! FOs can't afford to pay the bills, gt, yet you think we should consider additional paycuts if the "right" leadership asks for them? Sorry, it's not worth it to us. We're looking at 8+ year upgrades now. On these FO rates, that's not livable.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We're looking at 8+ year upgrades now. On these FO rates, that's not livable.

.....I thought you made it to Nirvana? Are you going to be able to afford that beer? Why did you take a job that "isn't livable"....Oh wait...never mind....it's the THIRD time you have taken a flying job that "isn't livable" while you throw stones at those who stay at their livable jobs....

 

[gt1900]

PCL... If you can't live off AAI FO wages you only have yourself to blame. I am an FO, and I live nicely on my FO wages. But then again, I don't live above my means. How are you gonna live off unemployment if you can't live off current wages??? Its pretty easy to make $60,000 + a year at AAI. That is more then most Americans. Im on track to make $80,000+ this year. I swap trips for better pay, but rarely pick up extra flying. I don't want a pay cut, but if it meant AAI would stay in business, I would be willing to take a small reduction in wages. Note I said small reduction..

 

[PCL_128]

Joey, it's livable for me personally (barely), but I don't have kids or other obligations that many pilots here have. If a paycut were to take place, then it would no longer be livable even for me, however.

But don't worry, Joey, because you'll be the one buying the beer. This pilot group won't be voting for paycuts.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL... If you can't live off AAI FO wages you only have yourself to blame. I am an FO, and I live nicely on my FO wages. But then again, I don't live above my means. How are you gonna live off unemployment if you can't live off current wages??? Its pretty easy to make $60,000 + a year at AAI. That is more then most Americans. Im on track to make $80,000+ this year. I swap trips for better pay, but rarely pick up extra flying. I don't want a pay cut, but if it meant AAI would stay in business, I would be willing to take a small reduction in wages. Note I said small reduction..

Thankfully, your willingness to take a paycut seems to be in the vast minority.

 

[wscrj]

gt...some of us have children. That 60 grand gets spread pretty thin when it's covering 5 people.

Furthermore...my job isn't like most Americans,

 

[gt1900]

wscrj.... I'm not saying it doesn't. However, $60,000 is a heii of a lot better then an unemployment line. Its not easy to replace our jobs with another one that pays $60,000 a year. Plus, you guys have a lot more money in the bank then we do. And your hedged. We don't have a lot of cash and we aren't hedged. Remember, almost every airline took pay cuts after 9/11... The oil crunch could very easily prove to be much worse for the airlines then 9/11. If you don't think everyone is going to be taking pay cuts soon if oil doesn't retreat your crazy.. Pilots have shown over and over again they will vote for reasonable pay cuts if they think it would save their jobs.....

PCL.. I have no words for you.. Everyone on FI knows your an idiot...

 

[PCL_128]

Everyone on FI knows your an idiot...

Never fails.

 

[gt1900]

If I wanted to be an english teacher I would have majored in enlgish... dip$%^$

BTW.. Comming from a guy who paid for his job at Gulfstream to get ahead and is only 1 month off probation, your opinion doesn't mean much...

 

[the turtle]

By Darren Shannon
Lufthansa is warning that industrial action by disgruntled workers could again affect the carrier's operations as they did during a temporary walkout earlier today.
The roughly four-hour walkout by several labor groups resulted in the cancellations of 44 flights, confirms Lufthansa.
Most affected were services from Frankfurt, where check-in and catering staff held a temporary strike starting at 4 a.m. local time. Similar industrial action by engineers in Cologne and Stuttgart and baggage handlers in Munich also caused some cancellations.
Most affected were domestic services, although some European flights were also cancelled, adds the German carrier. About 30 long-haul services from Frankfurt were also delayed because of the walk-out.
Some 3,400 passengers were affected by the cancellations.
In a statement, Lufthansa notes that the dispute is unwarranted. "In view of the existing offer of a 5.5% pay increase, Lufthansa believes these actions are unnecessary. Such actions are not suited to achieving a sensible solution. We fully regret the inconvenience this has caused our passengers," it says.
Lufthansa's unions are seeking a 9.8% increase instead of the airline's two-phased offer from the airline.
This is the second lightening strike by Lufthansa employees; on June 19, 2,000 ground workers in Hamburg walked out over the same pay dispute.
Lufthansa also warns that further strikes could occur. "We also cannot rule out more cancellations at short notice for operational reasons," it says.

 

[Murphy]

PCL... If you can't live off AAI FO wages you only have yourself to blame. I am an FO, and I live nicely on my FO wages. But then again, I don't live above my means. How are you gonna live off unemployment if you can't live off current wages??? Its pretty easy to make $60,000 + a year at AAI. That is more then most Americans. Im on track to make $80,000+ this year. I swap trips for better pay, but rarely pick up extra flying. I don't want a pay cut, but if it meant AAI would stay in business, I would be willing to take a small reduction in wages. Note I said small reduction..

People like you sell this profession down the river. I talked to a truck driver last week who makes $108,000 a year and his skills are transportable between jobs. He was laughing all the way to the bank when I talked to him. All our experience gets us is an interview if someone is looking to hire and the opportunity to start over at the bottom of some pay scale and raise the gear for someone who just got a better break because of timing. So do you think your skills are worth only $60,000. Most of the legacy pilots took pay cuts after 9/11 because a bankruptcy judge imposed his/her will on a labor group. You can't compare our measly $60,000 a year against other carriers rates that were imposed on them by judges due to bankruptcy. Don't include me when you sign up for concessions. I'm disgusted.