Airman closed until further notice..

[Flylo]

NO WAY!! Not one thin dime!

That's what's getting me. I don't care if I never see Double-Talk-Brenda or an Airman plane again...I just don't want to have to pay 20 grand that I never wanted in the first place. I've got $9,140 in an account so I can pay it back when the time comes (have to start paying in April 06), but the other 10 is somewhere paying for Airman's insurance...not good.
...and yes, this is all another reason (besides the way they treat you when you are a student/customer) that I never recommend AFS on here.-mini

Mini,

If you didn't request the loan and you didn't sign anything related to it and if you personally haven't spent any of it (even if they stuck it in an account with your name on it) ........YOU DON'T OWE IT!!

F'em and feed 'em fish heads. Send their bills back unopened or better yet, just throw them in the trash and let them sue you, if they've got the nerve. Then... file criminal charges with the district attorney, counter-sue the bank, the company and each individual involved, personally and severally, and see how long it takes them to get off your back.

Check often while this is all going on, even after they've given up and decided that you aren't just going to roll over to let them slide one in, to be sure they don't leave any negative credit reports for you and if they do, sue 'em again for everything they've got until they're cold dead in the ground and then sue the heirs.

You'll be the richest pilot in the fuel line.

Good luck.


.

 

[JonJohn82]

Yep, they kept enrolling students right up until the end so I hear.

 

[MFRskyknight]

Airman Flight School is completely gone.

Yes, they took new students to the end. From what I hear, a new guy from Taiwan signed up Friday, paid over his $30K, got one flight and that's it. The school is very deep in the red, and the people responsible are running like rats. It's looking more and more like there were huge misappropriations of student loan money. The crookedness of the people running this place runs so deep, it makes me ill.

At this point, a class action lawsuit against the school doesn't look like it'll do much about getting money back for students, but there are folks here who I hope to see in jail for this. Whatever talk there was about moving to a different building/airport, etc, was just them blowing smoke while they figured how to get away before the mob of angry students got them. I learned today that they don't own a single one of those $%*^ing planes, that their owner is pissed, and they will be gone tomorrow, or in the next couple of days. This is the end for Airman, and they're not coming back.

Anyone who wants to network/share info, feel free to PM me.

MFR

 

[MFRskyknight]

Minitour, I'd get on the horn with the bank and find out how you were given a loan for $20K more than you requested. It's possible that AFS somehow had something to do with that like maybe forging your name on an application.

I wouldn't put that beyond them, especially Brenda. She was always going on about how easy it would be to borrow more money, with or without permission, sort of joking, I used to think. It absolutely makes my skin crawl.

I agree about contacting Key bank and possibly suing them. I'm not familiar with the particulars of mini's situation, but since they disbursed straight to the school they should be held accountable somehow. In my situation, I got $23,999 for the upgrade disbursed to me directly, which like an idiot I paid up front to the school at the end of July. I'm only a few hours from an IR checkride, and still out about $18,000, which I probably won't recover from the bank, since I am personally responsible for how I spent it.

This sucks horribly for so many people, and while Airman may not exist anymore, the fat lady won't be signing for quite some time yet as far as all the legal repercussions are concerned.

MFR

 

[mayday1]

it amazes me how some people have absolutely no conscience.. to eagerly take money from people (read that steal) with absolutely no ability or intention to deliver.. I hope every one of you is contacting the district attorney's office and pressing to launch an investigation into these crooks.. in the end, it still might not get you your money back, but it might deliver some justice in the form of prison sentences for the owners.

 

[Tinstaafl]

Unfortunately this is not the first, and certainly not the last, aviation company to go tits up leaving creditors.

Usually students are unsecured creditors. Banks et. al. tend to be secured creditors ie they get possession of assets if the organisation defaults. If there's anything left after all the secured creditors get back their pound of flesh then the unsecured creditors get their turn to pick over the carcass.

In some jurisdictions certain categories of creditors are bumped up the queue even though they're not secured creditors eg employee's pay.

About the only solution is never pay up front for flight training unless you have good reason to trust continued the longetivity of the company. I tend to class Boeing & Airbus in that trusted category, never a company in any bankruptcy proceeding (including those in a protected continuance) and never, ever a flying school.

If you really feel you have to pay up front then arrange an escrow account with a third party that is completely unrelated to the school or pay in comfortably small installments. If the school won't agree to either of these then let that ring major alarm bells in your head.

Go somewhere else. *They* need your money more than you need them to train you.

Sadly, my comments won't help the guys already stung but hopefully someone thinking of going down the same path will reconsider.

 

[minitour]

Guys,
Thanks for the good advice. I'm gonna give Key Bank a call tonight after I have all of my information together to make sure I'm not responsible for the extra money.

I remember sitting in Brenda's office saying (for the umteenth time) "hey, my money is running out...I need to be done in the next month" and her saying "oh if you need more money it's easy, all I have to do is key in your social...".

That should have raised some flags right there since they had my social from my enrollment package.

It's already been a huge mistake, I just hope it becomes a managable mistake. I guess when I got "that feeling" when I walked in on day one, not to "hi" but to "I'll be right back with your contract", I should have turned around and drove to Atlanta and ATPs...oh well. Live and learn...

Thanks again for the advice, I'll definitely be looking into it.

-mini

 

[flyinlow67]

When I was then in '01, most of the planes were leased from Christinsen in Tulsa. I think there were two or three that actually belonged to AFS.

Brenda was definatly the money man (woman) She lined em up and knocked em down. I can't really complain. I got a Sallie Mae loan, and then had to file bankruptcy after 9/11. Wound up getting my ratings for nothing. Minus the seven years bad credit of course.

 

[flyinlow67]

Also, I doubt the move next door is going to happen. As I recall, there is a minimum space requirment for 141 schools. Everything will have to be re-issued by the FSDO in order for them to teach 141 again. They could do it 91, but whats the point? One of thier big selling points was thier self checkride ability. IMHO, if they don't have thier 141 cert, then they are pretty much dead in the water.
Isn't there a demonstrated ability clause in 141 also? It's been awhile.

 

[User546]

I also would recommend that all you students contact every major media outlet in the city, especially TV stations, and cue them in on the situation, and see if they won't do an investigation into it. Call the newspapers and have the reporter write a big news story about it.

Give them your case. Tell them the hard, honest truth and be sure name names. Tell them how they stole $20K plus from each student, how they took students moneys up to the final week, and now your going to have to pay the money back over the next 30 years although you never got to use it. Maybe the District Attorney will perk up and take interest.

Regardless of whether anything happens from it, the people in charge will look criminally bad in the media, and it should bring them the levels of shame that they deserve. Especially Brenda. It also might infuriate enough citizens for someone to take action and investigate this to the fullest lenth possible.

Go out and be agressive. You guys are about to lose all this extra money that you deserve, and need to finish your flight training. Don't let them walk away without a strong fight - you'll be paying for it for the next couple decades, for nothing, if you don't!

And for all you that think Key Bank is going to do something about this. Certainly try, but don't expect much. There was another academy down in Florida that did this same thing a couple three years ago (ACA, ATA??) and despite the school closing with hundreds of thousands of the students money, Key Bank demanded repayment in full from the students - regardless of the situation. They have a bad reputation for handling situations like that. And that wasn't the only place.

 

[viper548]

Very good idea 997. He's right about the bank. Even if it was the bank that screwed up, they won't tell you that. Keep in mind it is the bank that has already given the money away. They'll do whatever it takes to get it back, even if that means lying to you. Call an attorney, the District Attorney, the media, the FBI, etc.

Edit: The stuff you guys said about Brenda saying how easy it is to get the loan changed sounds sketchy. There's obviously a good size group of you in this together. I would suggest that the bunch of you hire a private detective to check this out.

 

[MFRskyknight]

Call an attorney, the District Attorney, the media, the FBI, etc.

I'm getting in touch with the local media outlets, and tomorrow I plan to contact the Oklahoma Attorney General about this. I will get signatures, statements, records, whatever I can from other students, and there are lots of us.

Interestingly, one of the county's assistant DA's is a part owner of the school, from what I've heard. I would think there's a potential conflict of interest issue there, but....I don't know that much yet.

Somebody said something about being dead in the water without the 141 certs.... in the past day and a half, a couple of the more honest employees have been in contact with the FSDO trying to get something worked out. Don't know much of the details, but there are a number of people with writtens to do and checkrides to polish off, so maybe they'll do some sort of temporary waiver? Like I said, not sure how that works, so I'll wait till someone with more knowledge on that speaks.

Grrr....anger, growing...beer supply, diminishing....

MFR

PS -- Does anybody know about TAB Express down in DeLand, FL, and how that situation worked out with Key bank, the students, and what happened to the people who ran it? I heard the Florida Attorney General launched an investigation into it, but I'm not sure what that means. I was reading about that today, and just wondering, since it looks like a near-identical situation.

 

[MFRskyknight]

When I was then in '01, most of the planes were leased from Christinsen in Tulsa. I think there were two or three that actually belonged to AFS.

Nope. Christiansen owns them all, and they is all going back to him. Tomorrow, I think.

MFR

 

[philo beddoe]

We need to come up with some informal organization that would act as a communications group to promote the no-pay-upfront message.
Sort of a "union" for student pilots. A website, real-life horror stories and other info for the prospective student that would essentially try to talk them out of any upfront payment plan. The group could target students at schools all over the country. We could strike fear into corrupt school owners everywhere.

 

[hoop]

From this mornings Daily Oklahoman....

http://www.newsok.com/article/1609658/?template=home/main


I hope you guys take these thieves to the cleaners!

 

[mayday1]

From this mornings Daily Oklahoman....

http://www.newsok.com/article/1609658/?template=home/main


I hope you guys take these thieves to the cleaners!

hey, this only takes me to a registration page for the Oklahoman.. any chance you can just copy/paste the article..?

 

[User546]

Norman aviation school folds wings at OU airport
By Robert Medley - The Oklahoman

NORMAN - The Airman Flight School, behind on its rent, has closed its doors and left at least one international student fearing she has lost thousands of dollars in tuition.

Airman, the flight school where accused terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui trained for three months before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, had subleased a building and space from the University of Oklahoma at OU's Max Westheimer Airport.

George P. Bernhardt, a Houston-based real estate attorney for Baker Hughes Inc. -- the company that leases the Airman building -- said eviction proceedings started against Airman in Cleveland County District Court in late August.

Baker Hughes has a lease with OU through the end of October, OU spokeswoman Catherine Bishop said.

Airman was late on its rent to Baker Hughes, Bernhardt said, but had been granted an extension through the middle of September to leave the airport building. Bernhardt said he did not know Wednesday that Airman closed.

"I had not heard that, but I am not surprised," Bernhardt said.

Tracey Opoku, 25, whose home is in Accra, Ghana, arrived in Norman Aug. 15 after paying $14,700 to take a three-month fall course at Airman. She said she learned Tuesday the school had closed.

Opoku said an instructor at the school, Juan Carlos, called her and said he had been advised by an attorney to tell all students, "the school has been closed down until further notice."

Carlos could not be reached Wednesday.

'I am stranded here'
After applying for flight school in May, Opoku signed a contract for an Airman flight course. She enrolled Aug. 29 at the flight school on the north OU campus, 1950 Goddard. She said she has been told the school closed Sept. 1.

"I have to get a lawyer now. I am stranded here," Opoku said from a friend's house in Arlington, Texas. She said she is staying with the friend until she can find a way home.

She said she has spent about $16,000 with her tuition and other expenses.

Opoku said three students enrolled this fall were from Africa. She said one man was from the Philippines and another from Japan. Other students were from England, Panama and the United States, she said.

Roland Herwig, spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration in Oklahoma City, said the agency has been notified of the closing.

The FAA is responsible for regulating flying safety at flight schools, but not the business aspects of schools, Herwig said.

Although the Airman Flight School is an OU tenant, Bishop said she did not know why the school closed.

Brenda Keene, Airman's director, could not be reached for comment.

Keene told The Oklahoman in June the school had about 85 students.

Walt Strong, Max Westheimer Airport director, said the school's enrollment had declined since 9/11.

Airman gained notoriety after the attacks when it was learned Moussaoui attended the school for three months before 9/11. He is the only person charged in the attacks.

Strong said a decline in the general aviation industry also hurt Airman.

"Their business has been struggling for a while," he said.

The school's doors were locked Wednesday.

Opoku said she is furious because she thinks Airman officials knew the school was closing Sept. 1 when she enrolled just days earlier.

International students who had planned to attend Airman will not be able to enroll in OU's aviation programs this fall. The deadline to enroll was April 1, aviation programs coordinator Renee Mitchell said.

 

[FlyingToIST]

Besides international students, how many of you did the research on the flight schools that ran with the money they collected from poor students? Also, I always tell people, the cheapest is not always the best.. Go with the one that is a bit more reputable then the others. Shelling out $$$$$ is not something that I would take it lightly..

I place the blame on people who were looking for a "quicky" on their flight training as much as on the people at Airman..

 

[minitour]

Just got off the phone with Key Bank.

Not too bad of a situation there. All I need to do is come up with bank statements/cancelled checks for the money I was given and the rest I'll be off the hook for.

Anyone out there, I'd advise you to do the same. Call Key Bank or go in if you can...talk to someone in person.

Good luck!

-mini

 

[A Squared]

There was another academy down in Florida that did this same thing a couple three years ago (ACA, ATA??) and despite the school closing with hundreds of thousands of the students money, Key Bank demanded repayment in full from the students - regardless of the situation. They have a bad reputation for handling situations like that. And that wasn't the only place.

And why shouldn't they? they loaned money to the student, not to the flight school. If you chose to take the money that has been loaned to you and hand it over to a flight school which takes the money and runs it's no the bank's problem. You borrowed the money, so you owe the money.

In Minitour's case, where more money was "loaned" than he requested, it seems the was some malfeasance, and perhaps the bank didn't do what it was supposed to. Fortunately, it seems mini is off the hook for the "extra"

 

[viper548]

Glad to hear the good news mini

 

[MFRskyknight]

We need to come up with some informal organization that would act as a communications group to promote the no-pay-upfront message.
Sort of a "union" for student pilots. A website, real-life horror stories and other info for the prospective student that would essentially try to talk them out of any upfront payment plan. The group could target students at schools all over the country.

I would love nothing more. Unfortunately, come December of next year (which gives me some time), I will begin making repayments on a loan that never yielded me even half of what I paid for, since Key bank disbursed it directly to me. I suppose I should have known well enough to see the red flags with that, but by golly, I didn't. Maybe I will spend my time traversing the country as a motivational (or de-motivational, depending on how you look at it) speaker, slowly trying to recoup my loss while I scare the next generation of dumb young'uns away from slimeball aviation outfits. Maybe I'll turn into one of those frustrated guys who goes to work for AOPA or something just to wage this battle...::shudder::. And the thing is, Airman's been around quite awhile, so you'd tend to think a little better of it with that kind of longevity. Wolves inside of sheep, and all that...

I just ran down to the store to grab the paper, looks like I've already been beat to posting the story. I just wish I could add onto that line about Brenda being unavailable for comment....because she's probably in f*ing Mexico by now!!!

We could strike fear into corrupt school owners everywhere.

I feel like all I have left is revenge. Is it time to light up the Bat-Signal?

MFR

 

[rcbullock]

Ok, I might draw some flames for this but here goes:

If anyone wants to fly with me to work on their ticket AND THEY WERE FLYING AT AIRMAN WHEN THEY CLOSED, then I will do their instruction for free. They pay for the airplane, and if I like the way you fly, you may get some rides with me in my C182. Where you rent is your choice. The easiest would be Cruise Aviation, if not the cheapest, but the instruction's free, so that's an offset.

I am a CFI/II. I can also help with a CFI initial rating, I've got the 200/2 requirement met.

I will be able to help with a limited number of students. I have a small business and other obligations.

Notes/disclaimers to ward off standard flightinfo flames (I know someone's just waiting):

- I'm trying to help out with the situation.
- No, I do not normally work for free.
- Yes, I know I will get 'free' flight time, but I own a plane and get paid to fly it by the USCG Aux from time to time, so it's not that big a deal for me. As a matter of fact, I flew 8 hours for them Tuesday.
- This offer is open only to students who had money on deposit with Airman and were working on a ticket when they closed.

Please direct flames and insults elsewhere if you are planning on clicking that reply button.

 

[User546]

I am a CFI/II. I can also help with a CFI initial rating, I've got the 200/2 requirement met.

What's this 200/2 your talking about?

 

[minitour]

What's this 200/2 your talking about?

200 Dual given
2 years as CFI

-mini

 

[350DRIVER]

And why shouldn't they? they loaned money to the student, not to the flight school. If you chose to take the money that has been loaned to you and hand it over to a flight school which takes the money and runs it's no the bank's problem. You borrowed the money, so you owe the money.

A Squared hit the nail right on the head, I couldn't agree more. If "you" were given that money then you should be held completely accountable for that amount that was handed to you regardless of the situation(s). You got it, regardless of what you decided to do with it once you received it. I feel for the folks that are out the money but lesson learned would be not to give the e n t i r e lump sum up front and pay per course, per rating, etc, so if this would happen at your flight school you would have obtained the training that was paid for and the remaining money left "in your pocket" could be taken elsewhere that would allow you to finish your training. The last thing I would ever do would be to drop $30,000 -40,000 up front unless I was 100% certain of the school's current financial situation and even at that I would still be somewhat skeptical about what potentially could happen at some point down the line. Unfortunate what took place, I feel for the students who are now going to be out a substantial amount of money but in reality this certainly isn't the first flight school to close it's doors and it surely won't be the last.

Contrary to popular belief, I truly don't buy into the negativity that some have painted here with regards to Brenda, don't think she was out to do this nor do I think she "took" the money and ran and I am pretty confident in time that the facts will come out.

Speculation is only speculation, I suggest a few put emotion aside and step back and await the many answers that still have not come out yet.

Easy to crucify those without knowing all the details, easier to place blaim on certain individuals without knowing what that inner circle had been going through in the weeks leading up to this closure.

take it day by day and time is your best friend at this point.

Don't rush to make conclusions here, easy to do when emotion is running wild from many.

 

[Beer&Brauts]

I haven't kept up much since I left Airman as a CFI in '97. Does Johnny C. still own the place?

 

[pdkaviator]

Ok, I might draw some flames for this but here goes:

If anyone wants to fly with me to work on their ticket AND THEY WERE FLYING AT AIRMAN WHEN THEY CLOSED, then I will do their instruction for free. They pay for the airplane, and if I like the way you fly, you may get some rides with me in my C182. Where you rent is your choice. The easiest would be Cruise Aviation, if not the cheapest, but the instruction's free, so that's an offset.

I am a CFI/II. I can also help with a CFI initial rating, I've got the 200/2 requirement met.

I will be able to help with a limited number of students. I have a small business and other obligations.

Notes/disclaimers to ward off standard flightinfo flames (I know someone's just waiting):

- I'm trying to help out with the situation.
- No, I do not normally work for free.
- Yes, I know I will get 'free' flight time, but I own a plane and get paid to fly it by the USCG Aux from time to time, so it's not that big a deal for me. As a matter of fact, I flew 8 hours for them Tuesday.
- This offer is open only to students who had money on deposit with Airman and were working on a ticket when they closed.

Please direct flames and insults elsewhere if you are planning on clicking that reply button.

Thats a very generous offer RC. I hope someone will have the chance to take advantage of your services.
Feel sorry for the guys and gals that were affected by the closing.

 

[A Squared]

A Squared hit the nail right on the head, I couldn't agree more. If "you" were given that money then you should be held completely accountable for that amount that was handed to you regardless of the situation(s).

Thanks, that's not to say though that I don't have any sympathy for those who lost money, I do, It sucks, big time. Unfortunately, it it is an all too common story with flight schools, I've seen it time and time again, both nationally and locally, a flight school pushing hard to get large deposits of money, when in reality they were teetering on the brink of financial disaster. It's a shame that it's difficult to get word out to folks about this, unfortunately the folks involved are usually fairly young and haven't seen this pattern repeat itself many times.

 

[MFRskyknight]

Thanks, that's not to say though that I don't have any sympathy for those who lost money, I do, It sucks, big time. Unfortunately, it it is an all too common story with flight schools, I've seen it time and time again, both nationally and locally, a flight school pushing hard to get large deposits of money, when in reality they were teetering on the brink of financial disaster. It's a shame that it's difficult to get word out to folks about this, unfortunately the folks involved are usually fairly young and haven't seen this pattern repeat itself many times.

It is a shame indeed. After hearing quite a few success stories about this place, it seemed like a wise investment at the time. I'll be the first to admit I got ripped hard by this, but it's not going to happen again, to me (obviously), or to anyone else if I have anything to do with it. Somebody made a comment about taking out sort of a public service anti-scam flight school ad in those flight training mags, either in this thread or somewhere else. That looks like a step in the right direction to me.

MFR