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Airman closed until further notice..

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Do a search on this board for "airman flight school" and you'll quickly find the person who pushed inquiring new pilots into going to Airman. Post afer post about how wonderful Airman is and how one couldn't go wrong if they went there.

Now he backtracks and says the pilots should be held accountable for their loss of funds.
 
There was a BIG meeting last night with upwards of 50 students. Class action litigation has begun, to the end that if fraud can be proven (and the case is reeking of it right now), pressure can be put on the banks to forgive the loans. I talked to some people who had Sallie Mae loans, and it looks like those may be forgiven. Key Bank... it doesn't look good, but who knows? Key sucks.

MFR
 
I wish all of you affected guys the best of luck in resolving this case, as well as pushing forward to achieve your dreams. I'll be a little more careful with my next disbursement check, due to arrive in a few days. I definitely won't just hand it over to my school. I worry about this same type of situation every day. I'm just glad that things are going well so far.
 
FlightInfo database error?

Wow...it looks like the last 15 posts or so are gone. LA blackout?

Anyway, here's a link to the news segment that ran on News 9 in OKC tonight: www.newsok.com/video. It ran today, Sept. 13, so it will probably be archived by tomorrow. Yours truly has a small appearance.

MFR
 
The school I used to teach at pulled the same crap. Some of my students had loans, too. They way it works is if you have one of those nifty "aviation loans" where the money gets deposited directly to the school, the student is only liable for the portion of the loan that has been used. It's not like the bank wrote a check to the student and the student had a choice of what to do with it.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER pay in advance for anything unless you can afford to lose the money. It's true for remodelers, mechanics, you name it, and ESPECIALLY flight schools.
 
MFRskyknight said:
Nope. Christiansen owns them all, and they is all going back to him. Tomorrow, I think.

MFR

Oh. That explains the bosses bad mood the other day.
 
pilotmiketx said:
The school I used to teach at pulled the same crap. Some of my students had loans, too. They way it works is if you have one of those nifty "aviation loans" where the money gets deposited directly to the school, the student is only liable for the portion of the loan that has been used. It's not like the bank wrote a check to the student and the student had a choice of what to do with it.

That's what Key told me...the problem I'm running into is getting the records from Airman (the attorney) to prove that I didn't use X amount...

I may have to get an attorney afterall, so I can get the darn records...what a waste of time.

If I knew then what I know now.......I woulda done either the ATP thing or bought a twin and done it that way...what a mess!

-mini
 
English said:
Do a search on this board for "airman flight school" and you'll quickly find the person who pushed inquiring new pilots into going to Airman. Post afer post about how wonderful Airman is and how one couldn't go wrong if they went there.

Now he backtracks and says the pilots should be held accountable for their loss of funds.

Info's favorite female pilot is back I see. Yes, do a search and you will quickly find that indeed it was I that "suggested" inquiring new pilots into going to Airman. You will also find that all those who took me up on the recommendation paid, completed, and were content with attending Airman and got all what they paid for. No "backtracking" on this end my dahling, get the chip off your shoulder. I merely stated a personal opinion on the subject when I got word on Airman's closing, nothing more and nothing less. Did you speak to a senior inspector at the OKC fsdo soon after they closed the doors?. Do you know the entire story behind this?. Do you or did you have any current/former ties to Airman?. I think not, sometimes it is better to stay in the closet when you are clueless and have no knowledge on a specific school/operation versus just spewing words/opinions.

Ignorance is bliss
 
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phantom, thank you for recommending AirOne at PWA. Went up to see them today and was very impressed with the operation. I'll have a talk with the FAA and see what I can do about transferring 100% of my credit so far to them due to the Airman situation.

MFR
 
350DRIVER said:
You will also find that all those who took me up on the recommendation paid, completed, and were content with attending Airman and got all what they paid for.

I wouldn't say content....but at least I got the paper(s) before they shut their doors...

MFR,
Give me a call if you can on Sunday...I should be around.

-mini
 
minitour said:
I wouldn't say content....but at least I got the paper(s) before they shut their doors...

MFR,
Give me a call if you can on Sunday...I should be around.

-mini

I shouldn't have said "all", the "majority" of people who took me up on the recommendation have shared the same thoughts, sentiments, and opinions about the place as I have had and shared on this board over the years. The bottom line is everyone got what they paid for (those who went there after I made the suggestion) and I can only speak for myself but if I had to do it all over again I would go right back to Airman in a heartbeat without a second thought if they were still in business if I needed to get the I/II.

You will never be able to please everyone and will always have a few that can never be satisfied.
 
350DRIVER said:
You will never be able to please everyone and will always have a few that can never be satisfied.

It's pretty easy to satisfy me.

Provide the services contracted in the agreed upon timeframe.

That didn't take place and when I voiced my displeasure, I was "benched"...for a month.

To me, that's unacceptable.

I can refer anyone to at least a half dozen others that attened at the same time as myself with the same opinions.

A pretty shady operation that unfortunately now has "current" students in trouble.

Like I said before, "go get 'em guys!"

-mini
 
350DRIVER said:
You will also find that all those who took me up on the recommendation paid, completed, and were content with attending Airman and got all what they paid for. No "backtracking" on this end my dahling,

No backtracking, eh?
 
minitour said:
That's what Key told me...the problem I'm running into is getting the records from Airman (the attorney) to prove that I didn't use X amount...

I may have to get an attorney afterall, so I can get the darn records...what a waste of time.

Do you have your logbook? That is considered a legal document. Do you still have contact with your instructor(s)?

The only bank I've dealt with for flight training money has been Pilot Finance. They paid on the student and my signature stating whatever training had been received. It was basically a loan put into an escrow account and only paid to the school when the training was received. Of course the student was charged interest and had to make payments during the training course, so it's not a 'student loan'.

HTH.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
 
minitour said:
It's pretty easy to satisfy me.

Provide the services contracted in the agreed upon timeframe.

That didn't take place and when I voiced my displeasure, I was "benched"...for a month.

To me, that's unacceptable.

I can refer anyone to at least a half dozen others that attened at the same time as myself with the same opinions.

A pretty shady operation that unfortunately now has "current" students in trouble.

Like I said before, "go get 'em guys!"

-mini

I stand by mini's observation about the "rocket science" of customer satisfaction - services contracted for in the agreed upon time. And what I find outrageous is the assertion by Airman's lawyer that they were not wrong to go on accepting tuition, since they were supposedly negotiating a new lease. He also says that they are technically in operation with one instructor teaching a handful of students. I think Will and one or two instructors may be donating their time to finish off a few close students, for additional out-of-pocket expense to the students, but how does this constitute Airman still being "in operation"? Hmmm, I wonder, would this fulfill their contract with me to provide training in the timeframe I expected? Hell no!

By constrast, yesterday was (unfortunately) the first experience I had visiting a flight school that does business like a flight school should. It literally opened my eyes to what I could and should have been doing. I know some people, like 350, got what they paid for with Airman, while others, like passengers on a doomed flight, were unfortunate enough to be on her when she went down (yeah, I know that kinda sounds dirty). I don't blame those who are content with their Airman-brand training for holding back their ill will from Brenda & Co., but even without all the suspicious facts that have been unearthed in this case, I would still hold them accountable for the significant loss of my time, training, and finances. The fact that this situation has begun to reek of fraud and deceit only compounds my frustration, and from the bottom of my heart I can say it would only give me joy to see them pay dearly for this.

MFR
 
phantomdriver said:
There are a lot of good flight schools out there and many are better then airman.

Amen!

...and that's not to say that Airman was (note past tense) bad. They were (at one time) a good place to go to school. But I think that people that went there 3, 4, 5 years ago really have no place to comment on the present day operations...at least not as much as students that have been in attendance within the past year-year 'n'a half...

MHO

...but yes, a lot out there...and I mean a lot...are better than Airman.

-mini
 
I went to Airman for my CFI/II/MEI back in 2002. I left satisfied; i.e. they provided the contracted services in the agreed time frame but I really feel for you guys that are getting screwed. I gave them my money up front too and although we're not talking the same kind of cash you are, losing 6-7 grand at that point in my life would have really hurt. There but for the grace of God go I. Best of luck!
 
It's pretty easy to satisfy me.

Provide the services contracted in the agreed upon timeframe.

That didn't take place and when I voiced my displeasure, I was "benched"...for a month.

To me, that's unacceptable.

I can refer anyone to at least a half dozen others that attened at the same time as myself with the same opinions.

A pretty shady operation that unfortunately now has "current" students in trouble.

Like I said before, "go get 'em guys!"

Again, I am not one to make premature assumptions until the facts come out nor am I about to condemn those in the inner circle for what they may or may not be responsible for. If it does turn out in a court of law that Airman and those running the place deceived, stole, and committed fraud then by all means I will be the first to say that I hope they pay a steep price and throw them all in jail for as long as the law will permit. Many believe this is the case, I am just one to wait until the facts come out and the dust clears before I will make these severe accusations against these people. In America I was once told you are innocent until proven guilty.

As I told you in months past and will tell you once again for the final time here that I was sorry to hear about your experience there but you were the first that I had heard of that had this sort of experience with the flight school.



There are a lot of good flight schools out there and many are better then airman.

You are correct and I agree with you however there are a lot of flight schools out there that were worse than Airman in my opinion.


...and that's not to say that Airman was (note past tense) bad. They were (at one time) a good place to go to school. But I think that people that went there 3, 4, 5 years ago really have no place to comment on the present day operations...at least not as much as students that have been in attendance within the past year-year 'n'a half...

Contrary to popular belief the school had not changed much within that time period so I do think I myself as well as the other former Airman grads do indeed deserve and have earned the right to comment on the school, whether recent grads or not is irrelevant in my opinion. The main change that took place is the school's finances which may have been mismanaged and not handled properly, this will come out in time but before I jump on this rapidly forward moving bandwagon I will wait until all facts are made public before I condemn the above mentioned individuals. I have talked to more than a few recent grads and again their experience(s) were quite different than the picture being painted here by a few.




millhouse21 said:
I went to Airman for my CFI/II/MEI back in 2002. I left satisfied; i.e. they provided the contracted services in the agreed time frame but I really feel for you guys that are getting screwed. I gave them my money up front too and although we're not talking the same kind of cash you are, losing 6-7 grand at that point in my life would have really hurt. There but for the grace of God go I. Best of luck!

I had the same experience and left extremely satisfied, content, and well within the promised time frame as most all in my I/II class did. With the exception of one person on this board who I made the recommendation to attend Airman I have heard nothing but positive feeback pertaining to the school. Again, if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't have done a thing differently with regards to getting the I/II at Airman.

In closing, I do truly hope that all those who lost the money are able to somehow find a way to complete the training, obtain the licenses, ratings, and move on.

If Airman is found guilty of all charges then by all means "go get em"

I don't blame those who are content with their Airman-brand training for holding back their ill will from Brenda & Co., but even without all the suspicious facts that have been unearthed in this case,

I don't have any "ill will" against Brenda & Co., again my experiences with this school, staff, former owner was not one that would leave any "ill will" in my body. I am not going to make excuses for what they may or may not be responsible for in recent times, again if they are "guilty" in a court of law then by all means they should pay for their actions. Being found "guilty" however by a few on a public message board does not change my mind, in due time through the appropriate legal process within this country will determine whether or not they have done illegal acts.

Again, I do feel sorry for those who have lost money, time, and most importantly the chance at achieving the dream of joining the professional pilot ranks. I do hope in time that all are able to get to where they want to get to.
 
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350DRIVER said:
In America I was once told you are innocent until proven guilty.


you were told incorrectly. In the United States (America is 2 continents and over 20 countries, even North America is 3 countries) you are entitled to be *presumed* innocent under the law until proven guilty in a court of law) That has little relevance to the question of whether a person is in fact gulty of having done something. It certainly imposes no restraing on private citizens forming opinions on a persons guilt, and expressing them .... which is what is taking place here.
 
Word has it that Will DeGraw still has self-examining authority and is instructing for free to those who didn't finish their CFI-II program. I think the students have to pay for the AC rental though.
 
NYCPilot said:
Word has it that Will DeGraw still has self-examining authority and is instructing for free to those who didn't finish their CFI-II program. I think the students have to pay for the AC rental though.

Yeah, and the poor guy is probably up to his neck in students/paperwork/bounced paychecks, etc. If this is what the school's attorney is trying to pass of as "still in operation," according to the Ch9 news, he needs to get his head out of his @ss and wipe the sh*t from his eyes.

Sorry, but jeez, I hate these people.

MFR
 
A Squared said:
you were told incorrectly. In the United States (America is 2 continents and over 20 countries, even North America is 3 countries) you are entitled to be *presumed* innocent under the law until proven guilty in a court of law) That has little relevance to the question of whether a person is in fact gulty of having done something. It certainly imposes no restraing on private citizens forming opinions on a persons guilt, and expressing them .... which is what is taking place here.

I should have been a little more clear about what I meant with that comment. Again, those who have formed opinions of guilt are just that, opinions and they are absolutely entitled to form them. You are correct in stating that "private citizens" have this right and can *presume* guilt, form opinions, etc, as I have done. I never argued that point but reality of the issue is that they will have to take this issue/matter into a "court of law" to get it resolved since the likelihood or probability of obtaining some sort of out of court settlement is unlikely and not very probable in my opinion.

I will reiterate it once again, I do feel for these folks who have been stopped from pursuing a dream, goal, being able to finish the flight training, etc.
 

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