Airman closed until further notice..

minitour

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rc,
Agree with you on Dale. He and Will seem to be the only two in the organization worth anything...oh and David Calvo...can't forget him...he's a cool guy.

I called this morning and got nothing but voicemails...who knows what's going on...yikes!

-mini
 

mayday1

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MFRskyknight said:
"What's that, guys? Can't make good on that refund check? Well, give me the papers to that 172 over yonder, and maybe we'll call it even."

sorry to hear about all of this... unfortunately, you'll likely be in a long line of creditors trying to stake a claim on Airman's assets.
 

NYCPilot

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Those 172's over at Airman are sooo beat up...they ain't worth $$hit.
 

minitour

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NYCPilot said:
Those 172's over at Airman are sooo beat up...they ain't worth $$hit.

Yeah...but even a beat up old Duchess is worth multi time...too bad they don't own it.

-mini
 

User546

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I sure hope this doesn't turn into another Tab Express debacle.
 

MFRskyknight

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mayday1 said:
sorry to hear about all of this... unfortunately, you'll likely be in a long line of creditors trying to stake a claim on Airman's assets.

Airman.... assets.... heh. To be honest, I've given this some thought. Aside from the planes, I don't think they've really got anything. Maybe a few simulators built back in the heyday of barnstorming, or a bank of testing PCs running -- ooh la la -- Windows 95, and some lousy furniture, but that's it. Last night, the only things I saw any CFIs taking away were tons and tons of model planes in their trunks, like the ones Dale had in his office. They obviously weren't thrilled, either, and had been having what looked like an impromptu liquor party; by the time I got there, the place kinda looked like Margaritaville.

MFR
 

NYCPilot

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Dale and Will were good guys.
I remember all those planes Dale had in his office. I enjoyed my brief stint down in Norman while attending their Instructor course.
 

Thedude

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was Airman still pulling that old trick and having 3 people log twin PIC in a Dutchess?
 

viper548

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If a move next door was all that was planned don't you think they'd have started advertising it in advance and maybe even keep the business running during the move? I hope you guys get your money back.
 

viper548

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Minitour, I'd get on the horn with the bank and find out how you were given a loan for $20K more than you requested. It's possible that AFS somehow had something to do with that like maybe forging your name on an application.
 

Flylo

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NO WAY!! Not one thin dime!

minitour said:
That's what's getting me. I don't care if I never see Double-Talk-Brenda or an Airman plane again...I just don't want to have to pay 20 grand that I never wanted in the first place. I've got $9,140 in an account so I can pay it back when the time comes (have to start paying in April 06), but the other 10 is somewhere paying for Airman's insurance...not good.
...and yes, this is all another reason (besides the way they treat you when you are a student/customer) that I never recommend AFS on here.-mini


Mini,

If you didn't request the loan and you didn't sign anything related to it and if you personally haven't spent any of it (even if they stuck it in an account with your name on it) ........YOU DON'T OWE IT!!

F'em and feed 'em fish heads. Send their bills back unopened or better yet, just throw them in the trash and let them sue you, if they've got the nerve. Then... file criminal charges with the district attorney, counter-sue the bank, the company and each individual involved, personally and severally, and see how long it takes them to get off your back.

Check often while this is all going on, even after they've given up and decided that you aren't just going to roll over to let them slide one in, to be sure they don't leave any negative credit reports for you and if they do, sue 'em again for everything they've got until they're cold dead in the ground and then sue the heirs.

You'll be the richest pilot in the fuel line. :)

Good luck.


.
 
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JonJohn82

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Yep, they kept enrolling students right up until the end so I hear.
 

MFRskyknight

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Airman Flight School is completely gone.

Yes, they took new students to the end. From what I hear, a new guy from Taiwan signed up Friday, paid over his $30K, got one flight and that's it. The school is very deep in the red, and the people responsible are running like rats. It's looking more and more like there were huge misappropriations of student loan money. The crookedness of the people running this place runs so deep, it makes me ill.

At this point, a class action lawsuit against the school doesn't look like it'll do much about getting money back for students, but there are folks here who I hope to see in jail for this. Whatever talk there was about moving to a different building/airport, etc, was just them blowing smoke while they figured how to get away before the mob of angry students got them. I learned today that they don't own a single one of those $%*^ing planes, that their owner is pissed, and they will be gone tomorrow, or in the next couple of days. This is the end for Airman, and they're not coming back.

Anyone who wants to network/share info, feel free to PM me.

MFR
 

MFRskyknight

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viper548 said:
Minitour, I'd get on the horn with the bank and find out how you were given a loan for $20K more than you requested. It's possible that AFS somehow had something to do with that like maybe forging your name on an application.

I wouldn't put that beyond them, especially Brenda. She was always going on about how easy it would be to borrow more money, with or without permission, sort of joking, I used to think. It absolutely makes my skin crawl.

I agree about contacting Key bank and possibly suing them. I'm not familiar with the particulars of mini's situation, but since they disbursed straight to the school they should be held accountable somehow. In my situation, I got $23,999 for the upgrade disbursed to me directly, which like an idiot I paid up front to the school at the end of July. I'm only a few hours from an IR checkride, and still out about $18,000, which I probably won't recover from the bank, since I am personally responsible for how I spent it.

This sucks horribly for so many people, and while Airman may not exist anymore, the fat lady won't be signing for quite some time yet as far as all the legal repercussions are concerned.

MFR
 

mayday1

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it amazes me how some people have absolutely no conscience.. to eagerly take money from people (read that steal) with absolutely no ability or intention to deliver.. I hope every one of you is contacting the district attorney's office and pressing to launch an investigation into these crooks.. in the end, it still might not get you your money back, but it might deliver some justice in the form of prison sentences for the owners.
 

Tinstaafl

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Unfortunately this is not the first, and certainly not the last, aviation company to go tits up leaving creditors.

Usually students are unsecured creditors. Banks et. al. tend to be secured creditors ie they get possession of assets if the organisation defaults. If there's anything left after all the secured creditors get back their pound of flesh then the unsecured creditors get their turn to pick over the carcass.

In some jurisdictions certain categories of creditors are bumped up the queue even though they're not secured creditors eg employee's pay.

About the only solution is never pay up front for flight training unless you have good reason to trust continued the longetivity of the company. I tend to class Boeing & Airbus in that trusted category, never a company in any bankruptcy proceeding (including those in a protected continuance) and never, ever a flying school.

If you really feel you have to pay up front then arrange an escrow account with a third party that is completely unrelated to the school or pay in comfortably small installments. If the school won't agree to either of these then let that ring major alarm bells in your head.

Go somewhere else. *They* need your money more than you need them to train you.

Sadly, my comments won't help the guys already stung but hopefully someone thinking of going down the same path will reconsider.
 
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minitour

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Guys,
Thanks for the good advice. I'm gonna give Key Bank a call tonight after I have all of my information together to make sure I'm not responsible for the extra money.

I remember sitting in Brenda's office saying (for the umteenth time) "hey, my money is running out...I need to be done in the next month" and her saying "oh if you need more money it's easy, all I have to do is key in your social...".

That should have raised some flags right there since they had my social from my enrollment package.

It's already been a huge mistake, I just hope it becomes a managable mistake. I guess when I got "that feeling" when I walked in on day one, not to "hi" but to "I'll be right back with your contract", I should have turned around and drove to Atlanta and ATPs...oh well. Live and learn...

Thanks again for the advice, I'll definitely be looking into it.

-mini
 

flyinlow67

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When I was then in '01, most of the planes were leased from Christinsen in Tulsa. I think there were two or three that actually belonged to AFS.

Brenda was definatly the money man (woman) She lined em up and knocked em down. I can't really complain. I got a Sallie Mae loan, and then had to file bankruptcy after 9/11. Wound up getting my ratings for nothing. Minus the seven years bad credit of course.
 

flyinlow67

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Also, I doubt the move next door is going to happen. As I recall, there is a minimum space requirment for 141 schools. Everything will have to be re-issued by the FSDO in order for them to teach 141 again. They could do it 91, but whats the point? One of thier big selling points was thier self checkride ability. IMHO, if they don't have thier 141 cert, then they are pretty much dead in the water.
Isn't there a demonstrated ability clause in 141 also? It's been awhile.
 

User546

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I also would recommend that all you students contact every major media outlet in the city, especially TV stations, and cue them in on the situation, and see if they won't do an investigation into it. Call the newspapers and have the reporter write a big news story about it.

Give them your case. Tell them the hard, honest truth and be sure name names. Tell them how they stole $20K plus from each student, how they took students moneys up to the final week, and now your going to have to pay the money back over the next 30 years although you never got to use it. Maybe the District Attorney will perk up and take interest.

Regardless of whether anything happens from it, the people in charge will look criminally bad in the media, and it should bring them the levels of shame that they deserve. Especially Brenda. It also might infuriate enough citizens for someone to take action and investigate this to the fullest lenth possible.

Go out and be agressive. You guys are about to lose all this extra money that you deserve, and need to finish your flight training. Don't let them walk away without a strong fight - you'll be paying for it for the next couple decades, for nothing, if you don't!

And for all you that think Key Bank is going to do something about this. Certainly try, but don't expect much. There was another academy down in Florida that did this same thing a couple three years ago (ACA, ATA??) and despite the school closing with hundreds of thousands of the students money, Key Bank demanded repayment in full from the students - regardless of the situation. They have a bad reputation for handling situations like that. And that wasn't the only place.
 
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