Air midwest crashes into hangar @ CLT??

[eaglefly]

ANU = Attitude Nose Up.

 

[PiperDriver]

"No flight attendants were on the plane because it was a short flight."

It is from this cnn story.

I thought the FO was the FA on a B1900?

 

[jsoceanlord]

as far as being out of cg, someone awhile back on this board said they were in a 1900 and he accidentally had the FA move the passengers aft, instead of forward, and that they almost crashed.

 

[boscenter]

The NTSB is saying that the elevator trim tab was suspect in this accident...

NTSB Cites Tail Equipment in N.C. Crash

CHARLOTTE, N.C. - A key piece of guidance equipment in the tail of a commuter plane was moving erratically before the plane crashed here this week, killing all 21 people aboard, a federal investigator said Thursday.

National Transportation Safety Board member John Goglia said information from the flight data recorder has led investigators to take a close look at the airplane's elevator. The equipment determines whether the plane goes up or down — and how steeply.

The data recorder shows the plane took off with its nose up 7 degrees, which is normal takeoff pitch. The pitch was 52 degrees by the time the plane reached 1,200 feet.

"Something occurred to drive that pitch angle to 52 degrees," Goglia said. "That is abnormal."

The Beech 1900 had an elevator tab replaced at an Air Midwest facility in Huntington, W.Va., on Monday. The data recorder shows the elevator had moved erratically since then.

"We need to know which procedures were followed at the maintenance facility," Goglia said.

Any erratic motion may not have influenced seven other flights between the maintenance and the doomed takeoff. But the plane was near weight capacity Wednesday, which may have been a factor in the crash.

...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...e=3&u=/ap/20030109/ap_on_re_us/plane_crash_39

 

[Typhoon1244]

...information from the flight data recorder has led investigators to take a close look at the airplane's elevator....The data recorder shows the plane took off with its nose up 7 degrees, which is normal takeoff pitch. The pitch was 52 degrees by the time the plane reached 1,200 feet.

...hmm.

 

[flydog]

The commuter jet that crashed Wednesday, killing all 21 people on board, was loaded so heavily that a ramp worker refused to sign paperwork allowing it to take off, investigators told NBC News on Thursday. The plane was allowed to take off only after a supervisor signed the documents instead, even though the plane was loaded within 100 pounds of its maximum permissible weight and a key guidance mechanism had undergone extensive repairs only two days previously.

 

[Huck]

The crash was over Cerritos in 1986. It was an Aeromexico 9 and a Cherokee.

 

[chperplt]

From CNN


-- FAA orders Air Midwest to immediately inspect 45 planes that were serviced at same facility as one that crashed Wednesday.
Watch CNN or log on to http://CNN.com /AOL Keyword: CNN for the latest news.

The commuter jet that crashed Wednesday, killing all 21 people on board, was loaded so heavily that a ramp worker refused to sign paperwork allowing it to take off, investigators told NBC News on Thursday. The plane was allowed to take off only after a supervisor signed the documents instead, even though the plane was loaded within 100 pounds of its maximum permissible weight and a key guidance mechanism had undergone extensive repairs only two days previously.

Since when does any ramp worker give a rats a@@ about paperwork??

Last time I checked, 100 under max (17020 in this case) was legal and within limits.

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe he thought the plane should stay on the ground, and knew he could never get a set of chocks into those intakes!

 

[jjbiv]

Here's one ramper/CSA that gives a "rats [sic] a." about paperwork. I'd sooner quit than knowingly submit an inaccurate load slip. At C8, a single ramper is responsible for the load being accurately accounted for and they then sign the load slip and pass it to the crew. It may not be an FAR requirement (like signing the release), but I take my responsibility to provide accurate information seriously. Unfortunately, not all ramp peeps are so motivated (or possess a sense of conscience, for that matter). Then again, some of our crew members are equally prone to "looking the other way." The sword cuts both ways: it isn't just a matter of "rampies don't give a darn."

joe

 

[Av8trxx]

"Since when does any ramp worker give a rats a@@ about paperwork??"


I do too!

I am extremely 'anal' about all my bin slips and documentation. They are required to be signed and are stapled as one of the required pieces of paperwork in the flight packet on file for 90 days. If anthing happens, your signature is on that legal document and they make no bones about it in training.

.......The reincarnated ramper & former AE SF3 pilot in a pre-9/11 life.

 

[Typhoon1244]

My experience has been that most rampers (outside of ATL) are pretty conscientious about W&B...it was some of the out- station agents who were willing to look the other way! After all, they're the ones who caught heck if (1) the flight was late, or (2) someone's bags didn't arrive when they did.

Now I realize it's very, very early in this thing to make any speculation as to cause...but I think I will anyway. It doesn't sound to me like the C.G. was a problem...particularly if they were still a hundred pounds under max. takeoff. If the elevator trim was doing strange things...

...can you imagine having an airplane rotating by itself when you were still well below Vr and pitching way, way up and the airspeed's decaying and there's not a d@mned thing you can do about it?

[shudder]

I may not sleep well tonight...

 

[Kaman]

Typhoon1244-
What you mentioned reminds me of an old PLAT (Pilot Landing Aid Television) video of a Grumman C-2 "Greyhound" COD (Carrier Onboard Delivery) taking a cat shot. Apparently, the load shifted and the thing went vertical, stalled and crashed into the sea...It was the most horrifying thing I've seen and I've seen a lot of scary crap in 20 years of Naval Aviation.
Lastly, and of an even more personal nature. A good friend of mine was killed in a Beech 18 (Twin Beech) when the load shifted and they stalled and crashed. He was 19 years old, a Purdue Univ. sophomore and was going along to log ME time.
I flew into Lynchburg today and on the radio I heard an Air Midwest flight call inbound, I couldn't help but think that the crew in CLT were there friends. Very small world this flying business.

Regards,

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[propjockey]

17,120 is the "new" MTOW. We typically use 16,950 because a) we don't have performance data for 17,120 at most of our airports, and b) we aren't usually that heavy anyway (think EAS).

I have heard that the military operates their 1900s at considerably higher weights than that. I don't know specific numbers, but I have heard it is something like 20,XXX. This airplane climbs like an animal, especially when you're down low and it's cold outside. It's like the 757 of turboprops. I seriously doubt weight was a problem.

CG can play dirty tricks on you, however, if you don't pay attention. One time early in my days as an FO, I was the PF and as I lifted off with the trim in the "normal T/O" setting, the airplane overrotated suddenly and unexpectedly, and airspeed started to decay. It took a fair amount of pressure to push the nose over to a "normal" climb attitude. The captain said "yeah, I forgot to tell you we're really heavy in back" (referring to the baggage compartment). Since then I've been a lot more aware of our weight distribution, even though this airplane has a huge CG envelope. It's not terribly uncommon for me to move pax to balance the load.

One thing that puzzles me given the information about the trim tab and erratic elevator movements is the eyewitness who described one of the props as being at a dead stop (I know you have to take witness accounts with a truckload of salt). But I still wonder in an engine failure contributed the accident.

I'm confident, as with most accidents, that it was not one thing, but a combination of factors that brought this plane down. I'm starting a trip today, and I think for a while I'll be looking more carefully at the tail of the mighty Beech in my preflight inspections.

 

[chperplt]

You don't have any latitude with your aircraft weights. Your POI has signed off on either 16950 or 17120. Your CFM says one or the other. Those speeds are not airport specific, they are weight and configuration specific.

 

[Singlecoil]

Average bag weights.

Does anybody know if Air Midwest uses average or actual bag weights? Its probably average as that is a lot more convenient for the company to deal with.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been overloaded in the baggage compartment even though on paper it was all legit.

Sometimes (right after Christmas) a disproportionate amount of people show up with heavy bags.

It sure is funny that a passenger won't get charged an excess baggage fee as long as the bag is under 70 pounds, yet when it is loaded on the aircraft it is counted as 30 or 35 pounds depending on company policy.

 

[jetdriven]

AMW uses estimated weights. 170 lbs for pax and 25 for bags. 50 for "large bags" or military duffles. We use an index method for W+B with numbers seated fore and aft. I have flown them a few times right at max gross and at the aft limit and I tell you it flies just fine. This airplane has no surpirses.

Friend of mine is a 1900D sim instructor. Thery could not get the aircraft to get to 52 degrees ANU even with max gross weight 17,120 and CG 12" aft of rear limit. It would stall first every time at about 40-45 degrees.

the only way to get it that high was to accelerate to 160-175 KIAS real low to the ground and then use FULL UP ELEVATOR AND HOLD IT until the plane reached the attitude right as it stalls, even the it would still recover and fly out of it.

Something major happened I bet.

 

[surfnole]

More details from MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.com/news/856493.asp?0cv=CB10&cp1=1

Goglia revealed Thursday that the Beech 1900D twin-engine turboprop was loaded so heavily that ramp workers asked the captain whether they should remove some of its baggage. The plane took off only after she decided not to remove any bags, which Goglia said left the plane within 100 pounds of its maximum permissible weight.

I don't fly professionally....but what is the implication with this statement? That a plane under gross weight is dangerous?

PILOTS DESCRIBED AS EXPERIENCED - US Airways said Leslie, 25, and First Officer Jonathan Gibbs, 26, both of Charlotte, were experienced aviators, with 1,800 hours and 700-plus hours, respectively, flying Beech 1900-series aircraft

What would they have flown before flying the 1900?

 

[ultrarunner]

Not sure, but I suspect she was a cfi and went into the 1900 as an FO then upgraded. He's was prly hired right into the FO seat from small piston planes.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

AMW uses estimated weights. 170 lbs for pax and 25 for bags. 50 for "large bags" or military duffles. We use an index method for W+B with numbers seated fore and aft. I have flown them a few times right at max gross and at the aft limit and I tell you it flies just fine. This airplane has no surpirses.

Friend of mine is a 1900D sim instructor. Thery could not get the aircraft to get to 52 degrees ANU even with max gross weight 17,120 and CG 12" aft of rear limit. It would stall first every time at about 40-45 degrees.

the only way to get it that high was to accelerate to 160-175 KIAS real low to the ground and then use FULL UP ELEVATOR AND HOLD IT until the plane reached the attitude right as it stalls, even the it would still recover and fly out of it.

Something major happened I bet.

Indeed. I agree with your post 100%. I have just over 1500 hrs in the flying pig. How did it get that name? Remember Beech said "how many things can we stick to a King Air to make it as ugly as possible?" and the rest is history. I still think the Beech is one of the coolest looking and flying turboprops out there. Many times it has been said "only in a beech".