Age limitation for 91K

[J.Otto]

I don't think you realize, what you're joking about here is tantamount to race, color, gender discrimination.
You're essentially doing the same thing as posting racial jokes.
But hey, if you want, there's always a new person wanting their 15 minutes of fame.

Its a line from Dumber & Dumber. Funny movie.

 

[Jack Campbell]

Semore, thank you for your generousity! If I was in your shoes, I'd be doing the same. I give to my church, too, and I'm sure people benefit from that whom I don't agree with on every topic yet I continue to give. I understand how seniority works, but you know there are guys out here working who are gettin' really old and its time for them to hang it up. They either can't load bags, or worse yet can't program the FMS and have trouble keeping it together cognitively. I know, I've seen it. This is not to say that every senior pilot is full of "senior moments', but some don't know when its time to quit.
My furlough isn't anyone's fault except for the people who are in charge of the economy, and of course former execs who ran the company with reckless inefficiency.
Cognitive testing would be cool if they could agree on how to administer it. That's why age works the best. Its 55 for ATC, 65 for airline pilots and we need it on the 135/91k side too. Many older guys can do the job but decline is insidious.

 

[Semore Butts]

Semore, thank you for your generousity! If I was in your shoes, I'd be doing the same

Well Jack, I don't know if I can afford to now? What with a new law coming out.

You will all be in the old guys shoes some day, whether you are in aviation or not.

As I have said before, you are trying to make rules that will ultimately screw you!

But have at! I know you already know everything.

This isn't aimed at you Jack, but I guess it applies to you as well.

I gotta go and cash in 63 days of vacation rather then take it, I have to save for retirement. If 5 other senior old guys do that, it will put another junior pilot on the street.

Nothing personal.

I hope this is my last plea to you all to think about what you are trying to accomplish.

(For the record, I will not change my donation nor payroll deduction. Nor will I cash in my vacation, just making the point of what if I was as obtuse as some of the younger guys I have seen post on this thead?)

Good luck to you Jack, when and if you return, just know that you will come back with acumulated seniority and good benefits. The senior guys will do everything they can to prevent any erosion of any kind from what they fought to make a great job.

Semore

 

[transpac]

They don't have to die...just get the hell out of a "for hire" cockpit like they knew would be the case when they started this racket. To the CMEI and ATP...plan, it's gonna come. Get ready. Don't be over 60 in a freaking plane schlepping bags. If you are...get out. Times are tough and every paycheck you collect to offset a mismanaged retirement is a paycheck some other guy needs to pay the mortgage.

That said, if any of you know anyone interested in starting flying lessons to "pursue the dream" either tell 'em to stop now or hit them in the head with a hammer.


.10

Very generous of you to allow them to continue to live if they vacate your rightful seat in the cockpit. And, I agree the old guys have no need for a paycheck and should move aside for someone with a mortgage payment. In fact, I agree so much that I'd like to extend the concept beyond the geezers and apply a "need test" to pilots of all ages. That way only those folks with a mortgage payment will be allowed to work and draw a paycheck. There's way too many rich guys taking away paychecks from you and your friends.

 

[Semore Butts]

Well Glass, you said it very well

"Times are tough and every paycheck you collect to offset a mismanaged retirement is a paycheck some other guy needs to pay the mortgage".

Roger that, and I have kids that are getting screwed over by some 40 or 50 year old that won't retire, or didn't save properly from their 40 or 50K per year job....The Bastards!

So, I'm 53, What is your advice for me?

Speak my muse....my oracle..

What you have me do?

How old is this guy that needs to pay his mortgage as opposed to how old I was when I got my first house?

I listen my master, speak! I will cast all my savings into your recommendations!

I am not worthy......Speak my lord....Save me!!!!!

 

[Jack Campbell]

Semore, for now, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. FWIW, the decision to change the law is not only WAY above my pay grade, but I have not written a letter or email to anyone about it, and have no intention of doing so. Simply debating it here. BTW, your only 53? ...you still have a lot of good years left in you! Guys your age are some of the sharpest pilots I've flown with. My issue is with guys who are in their late 60's and older. I have lots more to say on this, but its like fighting with the wife...I can tell I'm not gonna change your mind on this and that's cool with me.

 

[glasspilot]

Settle down out there. Post #51 was a weak attempt to poke fun at the argument that guys need to get out of the way. Post #57 is how I really feel.

Reading back it's vague...my bad.

In my defense, I was drinking during my first post (#51) and the subtleties of sarcasm may have been twisted a tad. The fact that I was drinking can be proved because I always (mostly) post my self disclosed EBAC (Estimated Blood Alcohol Content) at the end of posts where I may have imbibed i bit too much.

I think all should adopt the practice of disclosing their own EBAC. It would add a layer of believability to the forum.


Anyway, point is, fly til you want to stop or the AME yanks your med.

 

[Semore Butts]

Thanks boys

I have always respected you post Glass.

Not always agreed, but respected.

Jack;

"Semore, for now, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree".

Well, I can't disagree with that.

Call me back when you can agree.

BTW, I still need to know what I need to do to to retire at 60 (was it) or 65 (was it)?

Because by the time you get where I am, it may be 70...or 75????

As you said, I'm only 53.

I had it by the balls, invested heavily in blue chips like;

AOL, Sun Micro, and Oracle in the late 90's.

I'm in fat city! Got it made! Right?

Seriously, guide me, tell me how to get out of your way??????

 

[Jack Campbell]

Riiiiiight....I'll get with you when I come to YOUR way of thinking. You are obviously not interested in any view but your own.

Read my posts again and you'll see that my view, while not the same as yours, does not apply to guys your age.

 

[Semore Butts]

Jack, a pleasure PMing with you

Looking forward to working with you. The sooner the better.

Take care

 

[Jack Campbell]

Semore, Likewise! I hope we can grab some suds sometime, on me! Take care, man!

 

[cldsfr79]

Hey Super Genius,
You might want to rethink what you're posting.
You might even want to change the way you think.
All your flying-career problems would soon be over with a harassment-hostile work place charge/settlement.
Also you might want to check federal law.
What a bigoted thing to say.

BTW: You might have already helped someone complete step 4.

How to Prove Age Harassment in the Workplace
As the baby boomer population continues to age, workplace harassment on the basis of age has become a growing problem. More and more frequently, older American workers are subjected to ageist remarks, jokes and slurs, as well as to more aggressive harassment aimed at forcing older workers out of the workplace. In some cases, the older worker in fact resigns his employment due to overbearing emotional and physical stress resulting from the harassment. In other cases, the worker, having no economic alternative, continues to endure the harassment. Under either scenario, when age harassment occurs on a regular and pervasive basis, a cause of action for hostile work environment harassment can be established.
Things You'll Need:

• Diary or notebook with illustrative ageist remarks and misconduct recorded
• Names of offenders and of witnesses to harassment

1. Step 1
   Review employee handbook for procedures to follow when harassment is perceived to have occurred.
2. Step 2
   Report the harassment to the manager or other supervisory level person designated by the company’s no-harassment policy. If no such policy exists, report the harassment to your supervisor or head of human resources.
3. Step 3
   Record in a notebook, diary, or journal any comments said in your presence that reflect a negative or hostile view of your age or of older workers in general. Record details about the speaker and the names of witnesses to the statements.
4. Step 4
   Retain copies of emails, bulletin board postings and other documents that evidence ageist statements.
5. Step 5
   Assuming the harassment continues after your report, file a Charge of Discrimination with your local district office of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

Wow. Keep an eye out for this guy. He's going to be the grey haired guy with the coke bottle glasses sitting quietly in the back of the room taking notes in his diary. He'll probably be wearing one of those "as seen on TV" hearing aide device.

 

[jppt2000]

Wow. Keep an eye out for this guy. He's going to be the grey haired guy with the coke bottle glasses sitting quietly in the back of the room taking notes in his diary. He'll probably be wearing one of those "as seen on TV" hearing aide device.

Ha! Nope, not taking notes, not me.
Although I have seen the Feds on more than one occasion sit in FBO lounges doing just that, you'd be amazed at what pilots talk about in public.
Just like I misunderstood the movie lines from Dumb and Dumber, you've misunderstood what I've posted, or I didn't effectively illustrate my point.
I've heard out on the road and now seen on FI, careless ignorant windbags pontificate this crap once too often, and it amazes me how easily one could be on the receiving end of a lawsuit / company disciplinary action.
Free Speech, no argument here against that, but be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.
It's hard to get past the insidious greed and selfishness when people post about older pilots (hoverounds).
Cognitive testing, as far as I know is a very difficult thing to perform fairly, and objectively.
Oh and lets set another arbitrary age limit while we're at it (65).
Anyone of you bold messageboard cowboys gonna prove me wrong?
Fly safe, and BTW Dumb and Dumber was great.

 

[jonjuan]

"Where's the booze?"
"I got robbed by a sweet old lady and I didn't even see it comin."

 

[bizjet800]

Nice accent, where ya from?
Austria.
Well, G'day mate!

 

[BuckMurdock1]

..we got no money, we got no jobs (true for me soon)....OUR PETS HEADS ARE FALLING OFF!!

 

[NachoMamma]

That John Denver is full of ********************!

 

[rettofly]

Hangin' it up!

Been following this string with lots of amusement.

Pontificating punks need to get a clue! Someday you will be looking at this from the other side.

Age is what the body tells the mind. I've decided that 68 is enough after lots of years living out of a suitcase 24 weeks a year. Am I going to miss the flying? You bet. Am I going to miss the airlining, the second-guessing and the checkrides? Nope. Can I still pass a Class I medical? You bet.

I'm lucky. Got a supportive spouse (43 years) who has been encouraging me to follow my dream and a bunch of grandkids who haven't seen enough of me. Of course, that's only my opinion.

It's time to move on and let someone younger than me look to the left for advice and see his reflection in the side window.

Three more months and I'm done. Good luck and beaucoup tailwinds to all.

 

[Semore Butts]

Well said Sir, heres a little more news for the "infinitely wise young".

Just saw this.

I guess worrying about the old guys may become the least of your problems. you may end up with an acummulative record that could cost you your job.

I stand corrected, many of you may not make it to my age in the aviation field.

I recommend you channel your energies towards calling you senators and raising hell regarding this legislation. I'm sorry, my information source did not have the actual bill numbers.

Spread the word.


The following legislation in Washington D.C. has passed the U.S. House of Representatives and is currently in the Senate for consideration:

-Pilot Records Database which would codify check-airmen comments into permanent record, regardless of pass/fail

-Inability for pilots to hold air carriers liable for inserting improper comments into database

-Mandatory reporting of ALL DISCPLINE, regardless of whether it is flight/safety related into database by all air carriers.

The following bills have been drafted by representatives for consideration:

1. Bill to require video recording devices in every cockpit

2. Bill to allow CVR/FDR devices to be used by air carriers for random sampling and/or discipline.

 

[phishn@daves]

I have read most of what has been posted here and I can agree with both sides.

I'm 34, I have been furloughed three times in the past 8 years, totaling 2.5 yrs off (some guy's alot more and for longer periods). I also understand that it is the decisions you make along the way that either guide you or hurt you.

My quick story is; I was a regional pilot, then Captain..........left for JB. Spent almost a year at JB on the A320 and we got pregnant (my first child). At the time,......fuel was at an all time high.......and there were rumour rumblings that JB MAY furlough. I decided to be proactive and beat the rest to a job, so I went to a "recession proof" Fractional. Currently furloughed.

"If" I had stayed at JB, I would still have a job. I made a mistake in trying to judge the "climate" of the industry.

My point is......I'm not the only guy/girl out there who has made such a choice to leave a "good" job to try and maintain a paycheck. This industry is like the tide, it ebbs and flows. If you are lucky enough to be on top of a wave...........you can ride it. If not, then you have to put your head down and let the waves crash over you.

I do know that some people are just "bored" and are flying for Fractionals, 135's, 91's.......whatever.....but some don't have a choice.

 

[stingray]

I have 23 yrs before I reach the age of 65,
But If I'm 65 and can still pass a medical and I still have the ability to fly.
I will be fishing, screw the flying as a job "Enjoy Life"


Since you can tell the future, I just wondered where I will be?

This type thread comes up from time to time and you get the same old comments.

When I was your age I had 2 year + tours overseas coming?

Damn! Didn't see that coming?

My plan is to be "wetting worms" at 65 as well. I hope we both make it that far, and, are financially secure enough to carry out our mission!

Good luck to you all.

Take care, Semore

P.S. Just bought a Vette, some guy tried to explain to me which were Stingrays and which weren't.

(Gonna refurb it and try to make a buck or 2 off it)

No I cant predict the future. Hopefully my finances will be where I hope, so I can retire by then. Being in this business that we are, there are so many things we miss in life. Hopefully by then I will be flying piper cubs around to get my flying needs filled "if any are still left". Though I do like my job.

We all have seen and continue to see guys who fly well beyond that age, "That is their choice and it should stay that way". I cant tell anyone whats right for them only they can, but I have met quite a few guys who have a vary substantial retirement in the 7 figures+ 4 to 5 times over and more in some cases and continue to fly past 65. That is their choice.

But for me If I had the funds at 60 these guys have now. I will be fishing or enjoying some other things we can do, that we can'T being on the road for 1/2 the year.

Semore maybe someday we can go fishing. Somehow I think I may know you.

P.S. I already have my vette its sweet. Though the way i got it sucked

 

[ABUSED PILOT]

Flying past 65 is asking for trouble. Its time to give it up and let the next pilot have a chance.

 

[Jack Campbell]

Well said Sir, heres a little more news for the "infinitely wise young".

One does not have to be old to be wise. Likewise, wisdom does not come with age for all. Don't worry, Semore, I'm not referring to you.

Having said that, this new legislation is MUCH more of a threat to ALL of us. Please call your representatives and tell them to stop this over-reaching piece of crap legislation. Good luck getting them to listen.

 

[RossTwivel]

Yea!! minimum age of 45.

 

[ghostrider64]

Probably a minority view but here goes....

NJA is changing over to 121 training. I believe it's only a matter of time before they lobby for a mandatory retirement age that coincides with 121 operations. Age 65

I'm a lot closer to 65 than 35 and I must say that I'm for the mandatory age. It doesn't bode well for us when there are some guys that are getting into cockpits that resemble the walking dead, just because some quack signs off on their medical.

With a mandatory retirement age in hand it would force our NJA Union leadership to fight for a change to the CBA, that would include some type of retirement package. I like the idea of 60% pay for x amount of months based on longevity. Perhaps 1 year of benefits and pay for every 10 years of service.

It would force employees to plan for a finite career. How often do we hear horror stories about guys that can't afford to retire?

Age 65 bring it on. FYI my goal is to be done at 62, but if a package was available to me at 65 I might force myself to go a bit further.

 

[CA1900]

NJA is changing over to 121 training. I believe it's only a matter of time before they lobby for a mandatory retirement age that coincides with 121 operations. Age 65

What does one have to do with the other? Us going to 121-type recurrent training doesn't mean we're going to go with 121 retirement age, any more than we'd go with 121 ETOPS rules or 121 duty and rest rules.

Not debating whether it's a good or bad idea -- just that it's completely unrelated to recurrent training.

 

[gutshotdraw]

What does one have to do with the other? Us going to 121-type recurrent training doesn't mean we're going to go with 121 retirement age, any more than we'd go with 121 ETOPS rules or 121 duty and rest rules.

Not debating whether it's a good or bad idea -- just that it's completely unrelated to recurrent training.

Exactamundo. We've been using the 121 training plan for two years and we still have a bunch of guys over 65 flying for us (even after the early out). It will take a new FAA regulation or Congressional action to change our retirement age policy.

 

[glasspilot]

From my observation something should be done.

Say a guy, great pilot, comes down with Alzheimer's? What's the mechanism to get him out of the cockpit? Medical? Nope...they only check physical health, not mental health. Checkrides? Sounds good but the guy who has it is old and very probably senior with connections. Check airmen might be reluctant to end a guys career. A guy who they themselves hold in high regard.

Set an age, make it reasonable, adjust the pay and retirement, and stop bitchin.

The above is just an opinion. It's mine and to argue with it marks you as a person with Alzheimer's.

 

[ghostrider64]

What does one have to do with the other? Us going to 121-type recurrent training doesn't mean we're going to go with 121 retirement age, any more than we'd go with 121 ETOPS rules or 121 duty and rest rules.

Not debating whether it's a good or bad idea -- just that it's completely unrelated to recurrent training.

Actually all you need do is follow the M&Ms.

If you think the early outs were designed to save jobs I have some land on the moon I would love to sell you. It was about MANAGEMENTS concern about the age of some guys that seemed as though they would never leave. It was an OPPORTUNITY to rid themselves of some older guys.

Management is extremely concerned with older guys. Now it would be ILLEGAL to force people out but the writing is on the wall. Honestly they have a valid concern.

We've all flown with guys that fail to realize their performance is no longer what it was. With the on demand nature of our business, the rest cycles alone are brutal. I'm not there yet but each year it becomes physically more difficult to recover from screwed up sleep cycles. What I find scary is those that are oldest I fly with, are the last ones to admit they are exhausted. Can anyone explain that phenomena to me? I sum it up as they feel that it would be a mark against their age if they began calling in fatigued.

It wont happen soon but the day will come when you have a finite career in the Professional world and with good reason. Sleeping across the entire country, failing to preflight, extremely poor vision at night have been some of the latest issues that have been brought to light on some of our senior citizen pilots. Fortunately for them the Union is so strong that nothing can be done.

It's too bad that peers have to make decisions for a few of their own. I've called in fatigued when guys I was flying with refused to. I drew the line and said "I" was fatigued. Funny even after I did they refused to admit they were tired.

What this means to me is I will pull the plug myself when the time comes. I wouldn't appreciate being around one day longer than my peers thought I should. I left the military for that exact reason. I knew when I was done and no longer able to perform to the standards I had always set.... Glad I didn't wait for someone else to make the decision for me.

 

[rettofly]

From my observation something should be done. Say a guy, great pilot, comes down with Alzheimer's? What's the mechanism to get him out of the cockpit? Medical? Nope...they only check physical health, not mental health. QUOTE]

Guess I'll have to cop to Alzheimer's. Nah......

Alzheimer's is a neurological syndrome, not a mental health issue.

The "quack" that does my FAA medical exams actually tests for neurological impairment. The markers that point toward Alzheimer's ctually show up long before the commonly accepted symptoms and eventual impairment.