Age 65 and the "F" word.

[Bluestreak]

I look forward to the mass retirements when the age 65 "get-out-of-my-seat" whiners selflessly retire at 60,to benefit those below them.After all,THEY wouldn't work until age 65,would they ? I'll bet $1,000 not one of them bolt at 60.You wouldn't do THAT,would you ? Just think of those below you,guys on the street,etc.,blah,blah,blah.....These whiners will lap it up post-60 with some lame "It is what it is,I didn't make the rules" rationalization,while failing to see the irony.

 

[Flopgut]

The Chairman, the Prussian, Undauntedflyer gets it (and others). This career will do nothing but through curveballs at you, some good and some not good. Some people deal with adversity better than others, but the people that whine and cry the most have the most problems.

What would be the difference between saying this now to junior guys after the rule change, or to not have changed the rule and used the same words for guys forced to retire with no pension? Seriously, we don't have to wonder about this, we read it right here on FI. Nobody bawled and whined like you guys pre rule change.

What get's lost in the argument is this: Why can't the mechanics of how the retirement age changed be discussed/compared to something like flight and duty time? Correct flight and duty time and everybody get's back to where they ought to be and hiring will start. Why can't we make that happen in the middle of the night?!

The problem is with guys like you.

An interesting thing to see is the surprising number of retirements at CAL. No pilot group had more career "curveballs" than CAL pilots. Yet, I would guess we've had the most retire close to normal age. The short story is this: They didn't make big, foolish financial mistakes. They kept a managable lifestyle and stuck to a plan. Conversely, the guys who are staying (or are most vocal about staying) will never be able to retire. You could pick almost any one of them [there's a few exceptions], give them an entire career's worth of earnings and in 12 months they'll be broke. You can't help but wonder why pause career progression (or furlough so many) to help these types out?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Considering the fluidity of the airline business and the variables involved, the only "career expectation" an airline pilot can have is to cash a paycheck every month he works.

 

[Mr.B]

This post by Mr. B is the perfect example as to the hypocrisy of this thread, what he didn't say is that a little over two years ago he was actively pursuing this contract, I personally gave him infomation about this job in the open forum and in PM's and now he is pointing fingers, the only reason that he is not here enjoying the job created to bypass the" Japanese pilots union" as he says is because ANA rejected his application.

By the way Mr. "B" I want to be the first to congratulate you on your command there at UAL, I know it is a little premature but hey, 12 years pass by very quickly when you are working in such a great working environment as UAL. Sorry ANA took a pass at you "B" we are having a great time, wish you could be here

Yes, I even interviewed too! They liked my application! And when I was briefed on the union issues in the hotel lobby, I turned down their offer.

I'm sure you got the same brief didn't you? You know, before the ride to the training center?

I have a couple buds there doing what they need to do but they don't get on these boards pontificating how wonderful they are. I'd really like to ask them about you.

 

[The Prussian]

No, you'd just be crying for age 70.....

Negative, Floppy.....

 

[Caveman]

You remember you wrote this when the economy improves, age 65 doesn't get changed to 70, and not one single pilot past age 65+1 day can get a job doing anything flying. What comes around goes around. It'll happen, then you'll get to show us all how to act.

Psst: Betcha cry like a wus...

I won't have to remember I wrote this because this has been my position since day one. I didn't like it when I began in this business and I still don't.

Psst: Betcha didn't answer the questions because you can't answer them consistently and still support mandatory retirement ages.

Does seniority matter or not? Yes or no? You can't have it both ways.

 

[waveflyer]

Retirements are a huge driving force to hiring.
I don't begrudge age 65 at all- I begrudge an implementation that occurred so fast that it guaranteed furloughs at most career airlines. Just as the majors were beginning to hire after a 7 year lull since 9/11, bankrupty abuse, and outsourcing.
Do not underestimate the impact of retirements on hiring and movement. Your HR will agree- an airline on average must hire 1.2-1.5 pilots per retirement. Add in training costs and contractual bumping rights and the increased furloughs since 2007 would not have happened at most airlines if it were not for the cold turkey age 65 implementation.
As for older pilots losing pensions- I feel for you - but do not on the whole feel sorry for you bc you vote republican.
Just what did you think would happen when you vote for people who do not believe in unions?
If we're all going to get along, unify, and accomplish anything again as pilot unions- it would go a long way for both sides to live in the other men's shoes for a while. Noone was trying to screw anyone. The older got screwed when pensions were stolen- the younger got screwed by age 65.
The point my generation makes is that noone argues that older pilots got screwed by pension and bankruptcy abuse - it's the denial that age 65 has affected us negatively - and for some, catastrophically, that pisses us off. A little reality check and empathy would go a long way.

 

[jenks]

I would love to see how many of the gummers would be whinning if they reversed the age 65 rule tomorrow and they were forced to retire immediately. Ok, this isn't going to happen, but I don't see much difference in this senerio and the age 65 change and how it was implemented. I understand that age 65 is here to stay and I should shut up and live with it, but don't blame those of us that had our career and lives destroyed because of age 65 if we are a little pissed off about it!

 

[The Prussian]

I look forward to the mass retirements when the age 65 "get-out-of-my-seat" whiners selflessly retire at 60,to benefit those below them.After all,THEY wouldn't work until age 65,would they ? I'll bet $1,000 not one of them bolt at 60.You wouldn't do THAT,would you ? Just think of those below you,guys on the street,etc.,blah,blah,blah.....These whiners will lap it up post-60 with some lame "It is what it is,I didn't make the rules" rationalization,while failing to see the irony.

A rare sense of clarity on flight info...thank-you!

 

[BoilerUP]

A rare sense of clarity on flight info...thank-you!

Amazing how something or someone's "clarity" depends on their perspective...

 

[The Prussian]

Amazing how something or someone's "clarity" depends on their perspective...

Yep...

 

[eaglesview]

Do the simple math. Furloughs, in most cases, since Dec 2007 is a direct result of age 65!

Furloughs are always a result of an airline getting smaller. Age 65 may have calles stagnation but it did not cause the airline to shrink.

 

[fullsail]

I look forward to the mass retirements when the age 65 "get-out-of-my-seat" whiners selflessly retire at 60,to benefit those below them.After all,THEY wouldn't work until age 65,would they ? I'll bet $1,000 not one of them bolt at 60.You wouldn't do THAT,would you ? Just think of those below you,guys on the street,etc.,blah,blah,blah.....These whiners will lap it up post-60 with some lame "It is what it is,I didn't make the rules" rationalization,while failing to see the irony

You obviously still have your job

 

[Bluestreak]

You obviously still have your job

Uh-huh,and your point is....? Let's take a poll and see how many will fall on their sword at age 60 "for the good of the profession" mmmkay ? The reg says you must retire at 65,nothing says you can't at 60.And if I do stay another 20 years-too bad,so sad.My seat,I earned it,you didn't.Copy dat ?

 

[boeingdriver213]

The FAA wasn't moving very quickly towards implentation of the age 60 rule until ICAO changed their rules, correct? We seem to be moving towards the ICAO rules more and more, so even if we hadn't changed the age 60 rule when we did, it was inevitable. I also think the FAA was considering the possibility of lawsuits if they didn't change the rule. By the way, I am a 55 year old F/O who lost his pension and was furloughed after 14 years at my former airline. I have started over twice since then. The only "luxuries" I have are a happy, mostly healthy family. I have invested my money as wisely as I thought I could, but suffered as many others did when the economy went south. I am not poor, but I am not rich, nor will I ever be. I'll be working til I die, that's a fact, and I'm OK with that, because I love what I do. Age 65 will help me, even if I never reach the left seat again. In spite of everything that has happened, compared to a lot of other guys, I'm pretty lucky. I'm adapting to uncontrollable forces and moving on. Hope this puts another perspective out there.

 

[kwick]

The FAA wasn't moving very quickly towards implentation of the age 60 rule until ICAO changed their rules, correct? We seem to be moving towards the ICAO rules more and more, so even if we hadn't changed the age 60 rule when we did, it was inevitable. I also think the FAA was considering the possibility of lawsuits if they didn't change the rule. By the way, I am a 55 year old F/O who lost his pension and was furloughed after 14 years at my former airline. I have started over twice since then. The only "luxuries" I have are a happy, mostly healthy family. I have invested my money as wisely as I thought I could, but suffered as many others did when the economy went south. I am not poor, but I am not rich, nor will I ever be. I'll be working til I die, that's a fact, and I'm OK with that, because I love what I do. Age 65 will help me, even if I never reach the left seat again. In spite of everything that has happened, compared to a lot of other guys, I'm pretty lucky. I'm adapting to uncontrollable forces and moving on. Hope this puts another perspective out there.

Good luck to you.

A guy that tries to react and overcome a problem is probably a lot
better pilot than some guy that whines about it.

 

[jenks]

Furloughs are always a result of an airline getting smaller. Age 65 may have calles stagnation but it did not cause the airline to shrink.

So if there has been 147 people furloughed at CAL and there are over 300 pilots over the age of 60 ,...well you do the math! Your next point is?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The FAA wasn't moving very quickly towards implentation of the age 60 rule until ICAO changed their rules, correct? We seem to be moving towards the ICAO rules more and more, so even if we hadn't changed the age 60 rule when we did, it was inevitable. I also think the FAA was considering the possibility of lawsuits if they didn't change the rule. By the way, I am a 55 year old F/O who lost his pension and was furloughed after 14 years at my former airline. I have started over twice since then. The only "luxuries" I have are a happy, mostly healthy family. I have invested my money as wisely as I thought I could, but suffered as many others did when the economy went south. I am not poor, but I am not rich, nor will I ever be. I'll be working til I die, that's a fact, and I'm OK with that, because I love what I do. Age 65 will help me, even if I never reach the left seat again. In spite of everything that has happened, compared to a lot of other guys, I'm pretty lucky. I'm adapting to uncontrollable forces and moving on. Hope this puts another perspective out there.

It sounds like you are a fortunate man who knows how to count his blessngs. You'll live a long, healthy and happy life.

May God bless you and your family.

 

[waveflyer]

Furloughs are always a result of an airline getting smaller. Age 65 may have calles stagnation but it did not cause the airline to shrink.

This is complete bullsh/t
Not one ounce of truth in it. But whatever justifies it in your head, right?
At this point, it is what it is- but for god's sake, be men, recognize the f^cking impact and own it.
I never thought an aviation career would introduce me to so many pus$ies

 

[eaglesview]

This is complete bullsh/t
Not one ounce of truth in it. But whatever justifies it in your head, right?
At this point, it is what it is- but for god's sake, be men, recognize the f^cking impact and own it.
I never thought an aviation career would introduce me to so many pus$ies

First of all a$$wipe I am only 48. Second if an airline does not lose jobs, IE get smaller then you tell me where the furloughs would be.

 

[eaglesview]

So if there has been 147 people furloughed at CAL and there are over 300 pilots over the age of 60 ,...well you do the math! Your next point is?

See post above. To mant people let their emotions do their thinking. Why were 147 furloughed airline grew??

 

[Flopgut]

I won't have to remember I wrote this because this has been my position since day one. I didn't like it when I began in this business and I still don't.

Psst: Betcha didn't answer the questions because you can't answer them consistently and still support mandatory retirement ages.

Does seniority matter or not? Yes or no? You can't have it both ways.

Seniority Principle is what is important and it is bigger than the individual. Retirement date is as important as DOH and neither should be adjusted. Expecially in a time of worker redundancy.

You can check my posts on the age 60 poll thread. I said then and still believe that if ridding the profession of possible age discrimination becomes more important than seniority principle, fine! Get rid of seniority then! No age limit and everybody starts command evaluation at 5-10 years. Some make it and some don't. I don't think that's a good idea frankly, but it get's rid of age discrimination, right? Because 65 did not, pal. It worked for a small few. And on top of that you wrote out, specifically wrote out others seniority (pilots over 60 at the time) in the in the experienced pilot act.

 

[Flopgut]

...and yet you fail to recall that junior pilots successfully lobbied in a pre-9/11 environment to delay changing the rule for over 20 years. Had this rule passed, as it almost did, back in '91(?), and on a couple of other occasions, this thread and this discussion would not exist today...:erm:

What would exist today is meaningful dialog about how the ATSB was used improperly, how the RLA should be changed, making sure the Akaka Bill passed (where are we on that?), getting our agenda furthered on flight and duty time, etc, etc. No. We can't have that discussion because 65 happened and the senior/older contingent in this profession have the increase they need and are happy to scuttle the rest.

 

[jenks]

See post above. To mant people let their emotions do their thinking. Why were 147 furloughed airline grew??

Base on age 60 retirements the airline was hiring to replace those pilots. When the rules of the game changed and the retirement age went to age 65 there was no longer a need to have the new hire pilots. Therefore, 147 of us got furloughed. As for why 147, your guess is as good as mine.

 

[waveflyer]

First of all a$$wipe I am only 48. Second if an airline does not lose jobs, IE get smaller then you tell me where the furloughs would be.

Bc it takes 2-3 months to train everyone- at best. Airlines hire well in advance for the movement created by retirements.

 

[fullsail]

Uh-huh,and your point is....? Let's take a poll and see how many will fall on their sword at age 60 "for the good of the profession" mmmkay ? The reg says you must retire at 65,nothing says you can't at 60.And if I do stay another 20 years-too bad,so sad.My seat,I earned it,you didn't.Copy dat ?

Copy dat? Anyway, yes, in 17 years I would be glad to retire at Age 60 (and take your $1000). BUT, only if everyone else retires at Age 60 also. If that were the case, I would not be furloughed. I would be building my 401K and gaining seniority hopefully making it to the left seat someday. Just like you. However, none of that will happen now...Age 65 was a massive game changer. As stated before, the over 60 guys progressed and gained seniority, from Age 60 retirements, during their careers and suddenly gained another 5 years at our expense. IT WAS A GIFT.

Your hypothetical question is not based on the reality of the situation. Why should I retire at age 60? The game has completely changed. You wanted this change, I did not. Now, I play under your rules. What would really be ironic would be if I were to push for Age 70.

 

[ivauir]

Gummers
Geezers
Grandpas
Farves/Urbans
Flushbacks
Herpes
etc etc

Blue Hairs
Near Deads
ORFs (not anymore - they won't Fing leave!)

 

[Flopgut]

Would anyone mind trying to find the ATW Randy Babbitt interview article from Jan 2010? Someone with better search abilities than me? I have the magazine, and the interview is a bit of a shocker with regard to flight/duty time. He seems to think it can be changed without hiring pilots. I typed in the paragraph earlier, but no one has commented. If he get's it done this way we will all be working 22 days a month?! This sort of goes to the point of the thread...

 

[waazzuuuup!!]

All pilot groups should have an LOA in which those over 60 are furloughed first before any junior pilots. It is only fair, you know, career expectations and all. 30-40 years and they knew they would retire at 60.

This is a great idea!!!!!

 

[Bluestreak]

Copy dat? Anyway, yes, in 17 years I would be glad to retire at Age 60 (and take your $1000). BUT, only if everyone else retires at Age 60 also. If that were the case, I would not be furloughed. I would be building my 401K and gaining seniority hopefully making it to the left seat someday. Just like you. However, none of that will happen now...Age 65 was a massive game changer. As stated before, the over 60 guys progressed and gained seniority, from Age 60 retirements, during their careers and suddenly gained another 5 years at our expense. IT WAS A GIFT.

Your hypothetical question is not based on the reality of the situation. Why should I retire at age 60? The game has completely changed. You wanted this change, I did not. Now, I play under your rules. What would really be ironic would be if I were to push for Age 70.

You just proved my point.Age 65 = bad if I do it,ok if you do it.

You said:

"As stated before, the over 60 guys progressed and gained seniority, from Age 60 retirements, during their careers and suddenly gained another 5 years at our expense."

Didn't YOU also gain another 5 years at top of scale ? Isn't it a wash-you didn't upgrade as fast,but you did stay a captain longer ?