Age 60 Back Again!!!!

[Spooky 1]

Come on Dan. I respect that you have attained the role of Captain at your company, but don't think we(young folks--I am 40) can do your job too. If you did not prepare yourself financially in case of major problems (airline problems always run in cycles) or had a divorce or two, that isn't our fault. This will be a good lesson for all of us----make sure you prepare for the future. I don't want to remain in the right seat or a smaller plane in the left seat any longer than I have to. And, above all, it is safer to have pilots retire at 60. No doubt about that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, can you please direct me to the source of the idea that it is safer to have pilots retire at 60. I guess with your way of thinking, there must be some optimum age at wich pilots are at there peak? I bet in your mind at least it's somewhere around 40? I will agree that pilots do deteriorate at some point, its just not at some mythical age like 60.

Also, why do you think everyone has been divorced a couple of times, or has purchased to many toys in their lives? I mean what gives you the idea that you are the authority on this issue? Talk about Big Brother looking over ones shoulder. There are a host of reasons why working beyond age 60 could be important to some. Money alone is only one of them. Hope you are healthy, wealthy and wise in your senior years, kicking back with that rich wife you married and laughing all the way to the country club! All the best to you Delta guys.

 

[General Lee]

Gee I keep posting at the same time.
I'll give you this General, I fly between Hawaii and the mainland. If I was back flying up and down the eastern seaboard like I use to I might be changing my tune! My reasoning is that we all will probably need more than we realize. My Dad is 86 and retired from UAL and still going strong. Had he not invested in Real Estate and just depended on his UAL he would be hurting (and no he didn't lose it like the younger guys, at his age it is seperate from the BK)

If your General Lee moniker is a tip of the hat to the Dukes of Hazard tv show are you aware that John Schnieder's half brother is a Delta Pilot?

I didn't know about that. Yeah, my moniker deals with that show, not the actual General.

It is amazing that pilot groups will be losing a lot of pensions etc, but at the same time we, the remaining pilots, will never get a pension, and others have recently left with one or part of one. I need to make more to make sure I have that $1 million waiting for me, and sitting in the right seat longer or on a smaller plane in the left with the new lower pay rates will not help me. It is a no win situation, and I now really need to get into high gear, and these low pay rates will take years to change, if ever. I wish I could fly between Hawaii and the mainland as a 767 Captain, but it really will take forever if age 60 goes away. And, again, the safety issue really is there. Your dad is the exception. That is good for you and your dad probably.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

Dan and Spooky: I really don't understand the deal with the money. I don't spend a lot of money, but I have all the toys I want. I don't have as much as, for instance, someone who retired from UAL in Jan 01. (He11, if I had that guy's money, I'd just throw my money away!) I think you guys are banking on living a lot longer than you are likely to. Come on Dan, 80 or 90? No way. Airline pilots live to about 70. Especially the ones who live through events like we have had the last 5 years.

***OK, Dan I see your Dad is an 86 yr old retired pilot...I am mistaken. You need to start smoking and drinking. I'm kidding. You fly a 76 as captain and have 8 plus years left to work? I don't know what to say...If you can't make it what are we supposed to tell a furloughed 35-38 year old with 2-3 kids?

 

[Spooky 1]

Fair post. I actually can envision this changing in my career. I don't want it to, but I am mentally prepared to get jipped out of a fair career progression. I want to also acknowledge the fact that the only way to do it fair is to, once it has changed, let those people who are still of age come back. Its only right. Now, if and when those pilots come back, they better bring any and all retirement monies they took off with back to the company, with interest. We are going to need that money. I just can't imagine being a captain right now, as bad as things are for everyone, and have the position that I should get more time at the top of this biz. More than anyone else got, more than I deserve. I just want a fair share. Is "fair" too passe a term? No place for "fair" in this biz? Fine. If you want to fly past 60 like in other countries, then maybe we could do some other things like them. How about we go to rostering and equipment assignments? Lets abandon seniority! That might solve a lot of our problems with this issue. We have a very large number of captains where I work who would not make it in that environment. Conversely, we also have a lot of FOs (working and furloughed) who would make great captains, right now. Sound good?

With regard to the third man in the cockpit: My base of friends are all Dallas types. Braniff, Central, Continental and Frontier. What they remember is that the Super 80 was initially certified with three pilots, the 737 with two. The logical thing was that DAL hold the line on the issue since they had the plane that was certified with three pilots. Instead it went to FAL who faltered and their MEC went into ALPA trusteeship, and then went to Wein and they got wasted. Their opinion was that DAL pilots were ALPA primadonnas and wouldn't do any dirty work.

Flopgut. I thought you were a older guy who had been around this industry for awhile. I see from your posts that I was wrong. Lets see...Braniff flew the BAC111 with two pilots without so much as a wimper. CAL flew the DC9 without objection. Frontier under the heavy hand of UAL intimidation flew the B737 with three pilots but squirmed all the way. Central I don't think ever flew any Boeing 737's or DC9's as they merged into ?? I think that the three man jet crew concept was one of the darkest, heavy handed, corupt concepts that ALPA ever foisted on the companies that they worked for, the passengers that they carried, and most importantly, the membership they represented. I was there and this is just my opinion, but I think it has proved a pretty accurate assessment of this little piece of ALPA history. I apologize in advance for hijacking this thread!

Delta took delivery of the first DC9, and somewhere in there assessment they felt that it was not necessary to operate this airplane with three pilots. I guess history would have to say they were right. I believe the ALPA President at that time was a Delta pilot named Al Bonner so God only knows what was going on in the back rooms of Delta/ALPA/and Douglas Aircraft. Wein suffered the ultimate blow when they were driven to strike this issue with their small and fragile airline. Of course it did not take long for the Scabs to show up in Anchorage ready to do the work of the struck pilots. There finally was a settlement, but the company never really recovered from the damage done. Interesting side bar here is that the is that the initial cadre of start up pilots at America West, were Scabs that had gotten typed at Wein. There is a lot more to this airline labor business than meets the eye sometimes.

 

[furloughed dude]

Dan,

Quit thinking about me, me, me.

Age 60 isn't about safety. Yes, skills degrade with age. But now, with pensions and salaries eroding, people that didn't take care of their retirement are wanting to change the rules. Most pilots have taken 30% pay cuts, but others have taken 100% pay cuts (furlough). Luckily I landed a job at another carrier, but I had to start over. Even though I will certainly earn less in my career than pilots 20 years my senior, I still want to retire at 60 This is a job! I plan on enjoying my retirement and do something other than work.

So try thinking about someone other than yourself. I know you want to make another 500k, but if you couldn't save for retirement with the old payscales, why do you think you need 5 more years? You just might have to scale down you plans, but I am sure you will still have a decent retirement. Enjoy your "golden years."

 

[Spooky 1]

Dan,

Quit thinking about me, me, me.

Age 60 isn't about safety. Yes, skills degrade with age. But now, with pensions and salaries eroding, people that didn't take care of their retirement are wanting to change the rules. Most pilots have taken 30% pay cuts, but others have taken 100% pay cuts (furlough). Luckily I landed a job at another carrier, but I had to start over. Even though I will certainly earn less in my career than pilots 20 years my senior, I still want to retire at 60 This is a job! I plan on enjoying my retirement and do something other than work.

So try thinking about someone other than yourself. I know you want to make another 500k, but if you couldn't save for retirement with the old payscales, why do you think you need 5 more years? You just might have to scale down you plans, but I am sure you will still have a decent retirement. Enjoy your "golden years."

Partner, if you are watching out for yourself and letting someone else, like ALPA take care of you, your heading for a big disapointment. that does mean you need to run roughsod over anyone and I am sure that is not Dan's objective based upon his previous posts here. He is trying to point out, and doing very well IMO that what looks like a sure thing at 40 or 45 is usually just a figure of your imangination. Also, the right to work and provide for ones family is a very strong emotion as we can all see from these posts.

Its's really none of my business, but are you actually furloughed after all this time, or are you flying 747's for someone else? If your a Delta furloughee, it would seem just about any job would be better than the one you would come back to at Delta. Am, I missising something here?

 

[Dan Roman]

Good exchange here General and Flopgut. I can't blame you for your perspective. We have all taken hits none of us expected. I see your reasoning, but I still say you would be better off flying 3 extra years.
As far as thinking I would like it changed so I can survive. Not so, I have been saving away from my DB and will be ok. My primary concern (as long it can be proven that safety is NOT comprimised and I don't think it is) is the thousands of pilots who have had their retirement completly destroyed by circumstances totally without their doing. Guys in their fifties who no way could save enough to see them through their retirement. Also, yes the more I can sock away for retirement the better off my family will be.
Personally I would love to find something outside of flying to do part time. But there are a lot of guys who will have to work through no fault of their own.

Flopgut, 60 is young! I watched my Dad and many of his friends and their retirement years seem to be lasting as long as their working years, 25-35 plus years. Maybe he is the exception (golf scores in the 80's while in his 80's), but he retired in 1979 with what seemed like a good income from 32 years with UAL and inflation eat it up. My feelings are the more you can save and the less you owe the better off your retirement will be, and a chance to save/earn an extra half million in three years is way better than working at Wal Mart. My position is coming from the belief that retirement is a long time and we should all be able to enjoy it.

 

[Flopgut]

Spooky: Central was bought by Frontier. I agree, 3rd pilot issue was a bad deal (not unlike this one). However, this age 60 deal could negatively affect a lot more pilots. I don't see the upside for those of us still working as FOs, furloughed, or those recently retired. For those who are captains and are approaching 60, the only thing better would be winning the lottery. And in my opinion, they have all already been pretty lucky. For me, I spend a lot more time making sure my disability and health/life insurance is up to date than my retirement. I don't think I'm going to make it flying to 60. Bad family history, carry a lot of weight, major corrective surgery that still bothers me everyday, etc. All of which I might add is a distant second to the negative toll my body endures as it approaches 12,000 hours of flying time sitting in the right seat with no upgrade in sight! I am so sick of prostrating myself weekly to the deranged ramblings, arrogant musings, and mental judo required to work within the rank of some of these captains. Most of which have precious little right seat time themselves. When you say "there is a lot more to this airline labor business than meets the eye" your talking about some of these types. I can't imagine they could get 5 extra years.

On a not-so-related front: Is that WAL CA Fergusen (I think) still alive? The guy who was going into Sheridan, WY in a 73 and accidentally landed a Buffalo? They used to celebrate the anniversary of that day with a parade and he would come back and be the Grand Marshal. Thats what I heard, am I correct?

 

[Dizel8]

As opposed to pursuing the repeal of age 60, an issue which clearly divides us, I think energy would be better spent changing the tax and retirement law for pilots. Since it is a federally mandated retirement age, why are we being "punished" by the system?

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan,

Quit thinking about me, me, me.

Age 60 isn't about safety. Yes, skills degrade with age. But now, with pensions and salaries eroding, people that didn't take care of their retirement are wanting to change the rules. Most pilots have taken 30% pay cuts, but others have taken 100% pay cuts (furlough). Luckily I landed a job at another carrier, but I had to start over. Even though I will certainly earn less in my career than pilots 20 years my senior, I still want to retire at 60 This is a job! I plan on enjoying my retirement and do something other than work.

So try thinking about someone other than yourself. I know you want to make another 500k, but if you couldn't save for retirement with the old payscales, why do you think you need 5 more years? You just might have to scale down you plans, but I am sure you will still have a decent retirement. Enjoy your "golden years."

I'll give you this, I agree that the ideal situation is finding something else to do, I'm trying to figure out another line of work when I grow up(60) that is seperate from the airline industry. I've enjoyed my career immensely but would love to do something else. As far as my position being about me me me I'm more thinking about friends in their late 50's who had their retirement ripped out from under them and don't have time to make it up under any circumstances. You were furloughed through no fault of your own and equally as unfairly, the difference is you've got 20 years to recover, try being 59 and losing your retirement, they don't have 20 years to recover from what I think we all agree has been the wholesale attack on our profession

 

[Double Shot]

Think of long term disability paid out as an FO when you should have been a Captain...because of the age 60 rule was changed to 65 or whatever.

How will the extra time help that person.

 

[Hobiehawker]

The ones who argue about the age 60 rule being safety related don't know the history behind the change from 65 to 60 in the fifties.

It was all about AA saving money. A little history copied from the web:

Background on the Age 60 Rule

If it is not about safety, then what is the rule all about? The Age 60 rule came about in 1959, not due to any public outcry over safety concerns, but as a convenient way to settle a labor dispute at American Airlines over training pilots to fly new Boeing 707 jet aircraft. It took longer to train older pilots with no prior jet experience than younger, jet experienced, Korean War veterans, and therefore, it was more expensive to transition the older pilots. There were no safety or medical concerns expressed by either American Airlines or a panel of experts, convened in May 1959 by the Administrator, which recommended that age 55 become the maximum age for jet transition and age 60 become the federally mandated retirement age for airline piloting. The age 55 provisions went away due to comments at public hearings and written comments. The age 60 proposal was never publicly aired per the prescribed rule making process nor was there any medical or statistical evidence of reduced performance in older airline pilots. In the Q & A section of the FAA press release that announced the age rule, the first question asks: "Has it been demonstrated that age is a factor in the occurrence of air carrier accidents?" The Answer was, and remains, "No."

The Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) opposed age-based retirement as a matter of policy and challenged these company-imposed age-based retirements through the grievance process. In 1958-59, grievances were directed against American Airlines (whose pilots were represented by ALPA at the time), TWA and Western Airlines. In some cases the companies used medical and flight-safety arguments to support their positions; interestingly enough, ALPA succeeded in rebutting these points, which had no scientific or medical evidence back then either. Each of the grievances were decided in favor of the union and against the airline. C. R. Smith, American Airlines founder and CEO, unhappy with the arbitrator's decision, refused to reinstate the three pilots who had brought the retirement grievance. ALPA called for a strike against American. After the 21-day walkout, the company ceded most points to the pilot group and pilots returned to work.

Unable to hold back the pilots through normal collective bargaining, Smith turned to a longtime friend, Elwood R. (Pete) Quesada, who had been appointed administrator of the newly-created Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). In a letter dated February 5, 1959, Smith asked the FAA to proclaim age 60 as a federally-mandated retirement age for pilots. Quesada obliged by proposing what we now know as the Age 60 Rule. The FAA issued its Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) less than one month after Quesada received Smith's request. I am unaware of any Congressional or FAA hearing to debate the proposal at the time. The Final Rule, which was modified to pertain only to air carrier pilots, was published on December 5, 1959 and became effective on March 15, 1960. In January of 1962, Administrator Quesada retired from the FAA and was elected to American Airline's Board of Directors.

 

[Spooky 1]

Spooky: Central was bought by Frontier. I agree, 3rd pilot issue was a bad deal (not unlike this one). However, this age 60 deal could negatively affect a lot more pilots. I don't see the upside for those of us still working as FOs, furloughed, or those recently retired. For those who are captains and are approaching 60, the only thing better would be winning the lottery. And in my opinion, they have all already been pretty lucky. For me, I spend a lot more time making sure my disability and health/life insurance is up to date than my retirement. I don't think I'm going to make it flying to 60. Bad family history, carry a lot of weight, major corrective surgery that still bothers me everyday, etc. All of which I might add is a distant second to the negative toll my body endures as it approaches 12,000 hours of flying time sitting in the right seat with no upgrade in sight! I am so sick of prostrating myself weekly to the deranged ramblings, arrogant musings, and mental judo required to work within the rank of some of these captains. Most of which have precious little right seat time themselves. When you say "there is a lot more to this airline labor business than meets the eye" your talking about some of these types. I can't imagine they could get 5 extra years.

On a not-so-related front: Is that WAL CA Fergusen (I think) still alive? The guy who was going into Sheridan, WY in a 73 and accidentally landed a Buffalo? They used to celebrate the anniversary of that day with a parade and he would come back and be the Grand Marshal. Thats what I heard, am I correct?

Of course when I think of Capt's, I think of Delta/WAL or maybe even in the foggy past PAA. I thought most of the guys like your speaking of have left the industry?? Maybe it's just old age creeping in but what kind of airline do you work for anyway? Certainly today, the Delta crowd is very young and I would think that they would meet all your standards for civilitly. Maybe the General has an opinion on this since it seems a little out of place in todays airlines. Since Delta has such a young seniority list, does this behavior problem occur over there as well General?

One more thing regarding the young list at Delta. Why would anyone want to return if the list is so stagnent that there will be little if any movement for the next ten years? I would think that alone would be a show stopper for anyone looking at advancement even the minimal airline career.

Lowell Furgeson. Used to fly with him on occassionally on the MD11. Pretty good guy actually. Not sure but I think he may have passed away, or worse, been killed in an accident outside of aviation.

 

[furloughed dude]

Dan,I appreciate your coherent thoughts about age 60. You see your friends lose their pensions. I see people that haven't worked for 3+ years and age 60 would do nothing but increase that time longer. Many of these guys have families as well. A PBGC retirement is probably much better than most of us will ever receive. Your friends have had the opportunity to make alot of money in their careers. That opportunity, most likely, will not reoccur. The industry has changed, and I think we will never enjoy that standard of living. While it must have come a big surprise to lose a pension, most of us saw this coming for the last couple of years. If they continued to spend lavishly while the industry deteriorated, I can't feel too sorry for them. These individuals had years to save for retirement, and if they didn't take care of themselves, it is their fault. The bottom line is, and has always been, take care of your own retirement. Plan on what you feel you need, then save twice that amount. While it is true that I have 20 years to save for retirement, I will most certainly do this on much less income than your friends. Instead of thinking about the guys that lived at or beyond their means, think about the guys that are furloughed and won't get called back for years if age 60 is repealed. Most have families to take care of as well. Everyone knew the rules when they started, and now that financial matters have changed, let's not change them now for their benefit. Just my thoughts...

 

[Draginass]

The old farts with 3 ex-wives and no life will love it. As for you young guys, you'll just have to languish at your crap commuter for 5 more years before you go to the "major" for decent wages and benefits . . . . . . oh, I forgot, those'll be gone because the old farts will have bargained them away to save their own scalely old butts.

Soooooo, you can look forward to flying on a regional class contract for the rest of your careers.

 

[ferlo]

ALL THOSE OPPOSED TO RAISING THE AGE 60 RULE!!!!


These are the people that are going to decide if the unprepared senior guys should be allowed to sell us all down the river. Contact them and voice your opinion.

NO ON S.65!!!!!
The U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation has initiated a surprise attempt to forward legislation to the full Senate affecting the age 60 mandatory airline pilot retirement age. Members of the committee have crafted legislation which would raise the U.S. pilot retirement age in order to match a proposed European standard airline pilot retirement age. This legislation will be addressed by the committee during a mark-up session on Nov. 17. The members of this Senate committee are:

Ted Stevens - Chairman - Alaska
John McCain - Arizona
Conrad Burns - Montana
Trent Lott - Mississippi
Kay Bailey Hutchison - Texas
Olympia Snowe - Maine
Gordon Smith - Oregon
John Ensign - Nevada
George Allen - Virginia
John Sununu - New Hampshire
Jim DeMint - South CarolinaDavid Vitter - Louisiana
Daniel K. Inouye - Vice Chairman - Hawaii
John D. Rockefeller IV - West Virginia
John F. Kerry - Massachusetts
Byron L. Dorgan - North Dakota
Barbara Boxer - California
Bill Nelson - Florida
Maria Cantwell - Washington
Frank Lautenberg - New Jersey
E. Benjamin Nelson - Nebraska
Mark Pryor - Arkansas​

All APA members should expect to receive a "legislative alert" via e-mail which will urge each of you to link to the APA Web site in order to send a faxed letter to any or all of these senators highlighting our safety concerns associated with any increase in the mandatory retirement age. This nationwide targeted lobbying effort is being coordinated with Air Line Pilots Association and other pilot groups.
The future of this legislation will be decided by these senators over the next two weeks. Your input has tremendous value -- use that influence and make a difference! As always, our legislative efforts are only as successful as the membership participation behind them.--Legislative Affairs Committee

 

[crashpad]

You guys are so funny! C'mon it really comesdown to safety, and we all know a pilot can fly safely until age 65.

 

[Flopgut]

Of course when I think of Capt's, I think of Delta/WAL or maybe even in the foggy past PAA. I thought most of the guys like your speaking of have left the industry?? Maybe it's just old age creeping in but what kind of airline do you work for anyway? Certainly today, the Delta crowd is very young and I would think that they would meet all your standards for civilitly. Maybe the General has an opinion on this since it seems a little out of place in todays airlines. Since Delta has such a young seniority list, does this behavior problem occur over there as well General?

One more thing regarding the young list at Delta. Why would anyone want to return if the list is so stagnent that there will be little if any movement for the next ten years? I would think that alone would be a show stopper for anyone looking at advancement even the minimal airline career.

Lowell Furgeson. Used to fly with him on occassionally on the MD11. Pretty good guy actually. Not sure but I think he may have passed away, or worse, been killed in an accident outside of aviation.

I work for Continental. I fly as FO for captains that got their start by answering Lorenzo's call (50% of the time at least). Of course, all things considered we are very lucky to have the airline we have. I realize how fortunate I am to be working. That does not diminish the fact that these pilots are among the last on earth who deserve more time as airline captains. Fortunately, I also get to fly with some CAL and TI strikers. There is no finer captains to work for than these folks. So there is a balance.

As far as stagnation goes, if we change age 60 to 65 or so, I think we will have all the airline pilots the world is going to need for a long time. (counting the ones on furlough) Technology is going to change this job in the very near future. Fred Smith is going to continue to work toward pilotless aircraft for FEDEX. That technology is going to translate to the longhaul widebody stuff quite nicely and that is where the money is for pilots. That technological reality is a long way off but the downward pressure from that sort of thing is going to closely follow the same downward pressure we will endure from outsourcing threats now. The days of working 25 years for a flag carrier and spending half of it in the left seat are about gone.

The people of Buffalo sure appreciated Fergusen for putting their town on the map for something. He was a good sport to go back there each year for however long he did. Must have been a pretty good guy.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Of course the guys at Jetblue and SWA want to repeal age 60. They don't have, and have never had a retirement.

So you made bad career choices or couldn't manage your money. That is your problem... Get a life losers!!

I don't see age 60 changing anytime soon. It probably will some day, but I don't see it changing for years.

Wrong! Ignorance at its finest!

We have a great retirement! We have a very generous 401K matching (7.3 percent) plus profit sharing thats been running 8 percent on average of your W2 for many years. Pilots have been capping out at the URSA Limits put in place by Uncle Sam for a long time. Most guys go out with Millions in retirement thats there money. No PBG&C to worry about here! Pretty smart choices if you ask me! Much better than your traditional retirement!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ya know, Pilots are very opinionated and think they know everything which leads to some very bad long range decesions.

Many, many years ago there was talk at ALPA to create a National Senority List. Major mistake. That was shot down because we are so smart! Now the airlines divide and conquer us and look where we are now. We argue about age 60 rule and everything else that divides us. We should have 1 pay rate for say a 737. If you want us to fly the airplane you pay the price, doesnt matter which airline you work for......"Same hourly rate". Loose your job at brand ex you have a number to be slotted in somewhere else based on time served and experiance aquired. Almost every other practice, Doctors/Laywers/Tradesmen/Police move laterially pay wise when they put there time in an earn experiance. They dont get whored out and stuck at the bottom at entry level wages when times get bad. Just something to ponder while we each slice each others throats..............

Maybe one generation will step up to the plate some day in the future. So far I havent seen it in my career.

 

[furloughed dude]

Jim,It's guys like you that cheapen the profession... 401k and profit sharing. So what happens when/if the profits stop? 401k. You call that a retirement?