ABX update

[AV8OR]

First,

I've heard this 50% figure in the past myself, and to be honest would like to know where it comes from as well. Not saying it is or is not true, but always wondered the nexus of it.

That being said, I don't think it is "another way to slam Abx". As far as the hub intergration imploding, I think the lion's share of the pilots lay the blame at the feet of the true culprit...DHL. Our management however, consistently drops it on the ABX doorstep. But someone in yall's management apparently thinks cozy conversations regarding a non-exsistent job action to our DO, yall's competition, are kosher.

As for the suit. Not rehash that again. It's been done over and over. As for your support, as far as I know, all we've really asked is whether or not you'd cross a picket. We won't if yall find yourself there. Bitter, care to state publically whether you'd honor an Astar strike? I'll go first. No way will I fly struck ABX cities. Period. Incedently, Polar's gonna have some scope issues as well. We have communicated it clearly to their MEC, but today, in MIA, guess what, some of their pilots participated in info picketing in front of AStar offices and later in Plantation in front of DHL.

Certainly understand the root of your screen name though.

 

[356emain]

AV8OR, How did the picketing go today?

 

[goastar]

No dumb a$$ we are trying to force some sort of merger, or anything more than we have, while YOU are sitting around with your thumb up your butt, HOPING DHL will deliver you. The bigger we are the stronger we are! You fu$ks can't seem to grasp that and are more content with sitting around crying how the little astar group is hurting your feelings. Bla, bla, bla!! You want to be some little shi##ty acmi? We don't and we won't!!! We should be in this fight together, but you wish to remain separate. Your own MEC is on board with us but is afraid of your membership, because the majority won't get the facts.

I am sure the wages will be great when capital, or some other VLCC shows up on the ramp. You know the capital guys have a great pension, maybe someday you can have one just like it. (No offense to the capital guys and gals, just needed a name.)

Get in the fight, or shut the hell up, either way, we are going to make something happen at astar, whether it be shut it down or make it better.

Take your whiny BS somewhere else.

Weight is not really comparing apples to apples.

Astar does alot of the day sort which is P2.

10Lbs of P2 is weighs more than 8Lbs of P1.....What puts more in DHL's coffers?

You have to think in terms of P1 volume........Weight is the freight forwarding way of viewing the situation!!

We all bulk out before we weight out with express anyhow.

Not saying that Astar does not carry a decent amount of P1 and P2, I just do not buy that with one third of the fleet of Abx they do half the work........

Just seems another way to slam Abx. It was our fault the hub imploded etc.

You sue for our jobs, you try to bargin to change your ACMI to include all the work thus our jobs......then you have the gaul to ask for our support.......all the while thumbing you nose at us, and actively seeking to put us all on the street!!

We are in this together, but we probably will both come out worse off, while you continue to try to eliminate us!!

 

[goastar]

Your eloquent brother, keep up the good work. I can't take anymore of the ABX "poor me, were the victims, syndrome".

FYI, there is a spell checker for posting. (Joke)

First,

I've heard this 50% figure in the past myself, and to be honest would like to know where it comes from as well. Not saying it is or is not true, but always wondered the nexus of it.

That being said, I don't think it is "another way to slam Abx". As far as the hub integration imploding, I think the lion's share of the pilots lay the blame at the feet of the true culprit...DHL. Our management however, consistently drops it on the ABX doorstep. But someone in yall's management apparently thinks cozy conversations regarding a non-existent job action to our DO, yall's competition, are kosher.

As for the suit. Not rehash that again. It's been done over and over. As for your support, as far as I know, all we've really asked is whether or not you'd cross a picket. We won't if yall find yourself there. Bitter, care to state publicly whether you'd honor an Astar strike? I'll go first. No way will I fly struck ABX cities. Period. Incidentally, Polar's gonna have some scope issues as well. We have communicated it clearly to their MEC, but today, in MIA, guess what, some of their pilots participated in info picketing in front of AStar offices and later in Plantation in front of DHL.

Certainly understand the root of your screen name though.

 

[penguin22]

OK, now that goastar has vented his rage, maybe somebody can answer the question....

Just how do you get 40-50% of the weight?

 

[goastar]

Sorry, bitter and the booger rub me the wrong way. I have heard only rumors where it came from, and know not the facts.

OK, now that goastar has vented his rage, maybe somebody can answer the question....

Just how do you get 40-50% of the weight?

 

[penguin22]

Sorry, bitter and the booger rub me the wrong way. I have heard only rumors where it came from, and know not the facts.

You might as well put me on your list too. Because I'm telling you that Astar carrying 40-50% of the weight out of ILN is bullsh!t

 

[xspud]

Bitter, care to state publically whether you'd honor an Astar strike? I'll go first. No way will I fly struck ABX cities. Period.

Okay, I'll weigh in. I'm a Teamster. I don't cross picket lines.

How we would go about honoring an Astar strike is a little over my pay grade (ie: do we fly at all? What's an Astar city, what's an ABX city?), but my vote is we would honor it. Union leaders need to work out how that's done and they would have my full support. Just the opinion of one APA 1224 member.

 

[goastar]

I never said it was a fact, and you have no facts that back up your claim. In the end does it matter? Companies, people, unions exaggerate in the papers all the time. Did it say we haul 50% of the freight with 1/3 of the planes of abx. I believe the 76 holds 122 of them top side? I guess I could see how one could construe that we carry more freight. I don't know if its true or not, I wouldn't have wrote it in the paper, but they don't consult me. Maybe its posturing for management, don't lose any sleep over it.

I will say ditto for me, with AV8OR and xspud. If a strike shows up on your side, I will not fly ABX cities.

End of discussion, for me.

You might as well put me on your list too. Because I'm telling you that Astar carrying 40-50% of the weight out of ILN is bullsh!t

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

You might as well put me on your list too. Because I'm telling you that Astar carrying 40-50% of the weight out of ILN is bullsh!t

What difference does it make if it's 40%, or 30% or 70%? The fact is that DHL has labor issues, which they have passed down to their "subcontractors." The only hope for both the Astar and ABX pilot groups to maintain some semblance of parity with FedEx and UPS is for them to work together. That would be much easier if they were both represented by the same union, but alas...

As for either side trying to take all the flying from the other, both unions have a legal obligation to protect the jobs of their members. I'm fairly certain that ABX had wording in their contract that guaranteed that they would fly any cargo that came about as a result of acquiring another carrier.

As far as flying struck work, neither union may have much protection if push comes to shove in this regard. There is some precedent that says that as a subcontractor, the work you fly doesn't belong to the company with whom you're having the labor disagreement...it belongs to your "customer"...DHL.

I'm sure that there are some real lawyers out there. I'd be interested in knowing what the legalities are of refusing to work for company "A" simply because they do business with company "B," who, coincidently, is having labor problems.

Of course, the real solution to this monkey-fuss isn't going to be found in the law books or in a courtroom. The real work has to be done in Washington, D.C., by tightening up the laws concerning virtual companies, "subcontracted" employees, and labor law in general.

 

[Bitter]

For those that ask, I would not cross the line......No way.

We need to work together to win.

Excuse my rants, i am not as bitter as I seemed.

My point was, that all the lawsuits etc, is no way to unify.

 

[AV8OR]

"We need to work together to win."

Agreed. Sweet!

 

[AV8OR]

AV8OR, How did the picketing go today?

Thanks for askin'. I was on reserve today so, info is only trickling in, but, from what I heard, we had 70 or so of our guys there, and then some combo of Polar and Spirit guys showed up for a total of about 100. But the shangri la was that, after picketing outside AStar in MIA, they recieved approval of their permit for Plantation, FL, so they loaded up the bus, set up outside DHL, and let them get a little press as well. I'd say that it was a success.

What, (other than more TRO's and BS employee spin mailings for the cubicle crowd), it will produce has yet to be seen of course.

By the way, if you guys ever decide to travel for informational picketing at ABX, blast a little Dropkick Murphys....Shipping up to Boston on the speakers on the way there, and you'll be so pi$$ed off resolute by the time you get to your destination, you'll think just drank five Guiness Drafts and someone just cursed your mother.

Cheers!

 

[HD2003]

astarlabortalks.com

 

[Joe Pilot]

Boy, you Abx guys seem a little too sensitive. It is too bad you can't see past your next pay check to realize what is trying to be done here. The Polar guys see it and now DHL takes notice that there is support. What is holding you guys back? Like someone said, even your union leaders realize it.
Remember, there is always stregnth in numbers.

 

[penguin22]

Not quite sure what you’re complaining about. You want US to get YOUR contract for you? It’s your contract, YOU negotiate for it.

The only thing we have to do is make sure OUR contract is not concessionary. And trust me, we’re NOT negotiating a concessionary contract. Make sure YOU do the same.

 

[Joe Pilot]

Wasn't asking for you to negotiate our contract. Like I said stregnth always comes in numbers. If you haven't realized it yet, our managements and DHL are pitting us against each other. If we work together (Astar/ABX/Polar) then we are all much better off and our collective managements negotiating leverage would diminish.
The reality is that we are all in this mess together, and that is the only way to beat it. When it comes for your day to picket or strike, you will have my support.

 

[Sporto]

Good luck with that

Wasn't asking for you to negotiate our contract. Like I said stregnth always comes in numbers. If you haven't realized it yet, our managements and DHL are pitting us against each other. If we work together (Astar/ABX/Polar) then we are all much better off and our collective managements negotiating leverage would diminish.
The reality is that we are all in this mess together, and that is the only way to beat it. When it comes for your day to picket or strike, you will have my support.

Support.....you must be joking. The majority of the ABX pilot group is one of the most self absorbed pilot groups out there. There are still guys out on the street and nobody really cares. I'm amazed at the amount of open time that is consumed and many of them are hungry for more. So if your looking for support from the core ABX guys you had better look elsewhere.

 

[inplaneview]

Boy, you Abx guys seem a little too sensitive. It is too bad you can't see past your next pay check to realize what is trying to be done here. The Polar guys see it and now DHL takes notice that there is support. What is holding you guys back? Like someone said, even your union leaders realize it.
Remember, there is always stregnth in numbers.

Don't expect much support from ABX guys until you guys drop the lawsuit. You're trying to take our jobs away via legal action, yet you want us to honor your picket line? I don't think so!

 

[Joe Pilot]

Don't expect much support from ABX guys until you guys drop the lawsuit. You're trying to take our jobs away via legal action, yet you want us to honor your picket line? I don't think so!

Again, you fail to see what is going on. You want to believe what others tell you, what you hear from your management or what your union lawyers say. If you don't know the specifics then you are shorting yourself.
If you haven't noticed, ABX has over 100 aircraft of which at least 80 fly for the DHL network. Do you really think that little Astar can take that from you. ALPA is going to protect and fight for the contract that was negotiated. Your guys would do the same thing if it was the other way around. The best outcome for all of us is if this lawsuite against DHL forced a merger. We would all be better off. Or we could just waite around and let DHL pit us against each other and see what comes next.
I for one and can probably say that most of my pilot group will not share in a race to the bottom. That is what DHL wants. They want outstanding on time performance with KittyHawk rates of pay. I would rather see this place shut down on our terms than to let DHL dictate our pay.

 

[abxaviator]

I understand your point of view, and why our union did not join ABX against the suit. You say "Your guys would do the same thing if it was the other way around." To understand where some ABX pilots are coming from, try to turn it around. Many in your pilot group would be fearful of the impact of such a case, even more so because we could handle all the freight.

The ultimate ramifications of the suit are unknown and that is what most are concerned with, fear of the unkown, fear of change. Remember there are almost always unintended consequences.

For the immediate future, the best thing both groups can do is refuse to race to the bottom with concessionarry contracts, stand firm and secure the contracts we deserve. As long as we fly yellow airplanes, our competition is purple and brown, not all the others.

 

[AV8OR]

Guys, yall need to know, if we win the suit, the best we could possibly see would be a monetary damage settlement. If that ever happens maybe I can by the first round for all the ABX pilots that show at BW3's and we can bury this friggin hatchet.

 

[abxaviator]

"the best we could possibly see would be a monetary damage settlement"

Wait a minute, you had me until that one. So which is it? At best a monetary award or the previously stated lofty goal of forcing a merger?

 

[AV8OR]

"the best we could possibly see would be a monetary damage settlement"

Wait a minute, you had me until that one. So which is it? At best a monetary award or the previously stated lofty goal of forcing a merger?

I was not speaking of what the goal was, just what I thought was realistic a realistic remedy as far as a judge would be concerned.

 

[penguin22]

here’s my analysis, FWIW:

ALPA made a strategic error with this lawsuit. You guys alienated the very pilot group you needed the most support from.

I wonder if ALPA National was the driver behind it more so than your local MEC. ALPA saw the larger pilot group flying for DHL was now Teamsters, and they threw a hail mary in a desperate attempt to be the surviving union. They didn’t care if they ended up sacrificing the local pilot group involved, if they failed.

Which illustrates a major difference between ALPA and Teamsters. With our local, all strategic planning is made by us, not somebody in Washington with a pile of other airline concerns on their desk. Witness our new partnership with Ver Di and our contacts on the Deutsche Post Supervisory Board. All the years you guys have had with DHL, why haven’t you reached out to them like that?

No strategic foresight, that’s why.

 

[Jurassic Jet]

They want outstanding on time performance with KittyHawk rates of pay. I would rather see this place shut down on our terms than to let DHL dictate our pay.

Sounds alot like a former passenger carrier....comeon...somebody help me with the name. I think Eddie Rickenbacker used to own it at one time.

I truly don't think either pilot group has a complete understanding of what it really means to be an ACMI carrier. There really is not any true position of power from which to bargain from. You are not purple or brown and you will NEVER see any contract that remotely resembles anything close to theirs. Don't get me wrong. I'm rootin on ya'll. I hope you get it. Not likely however.

You (both groups) should be happy to be at the top of the food chain of ACMI carriers as it goes. Sure, both contracts need some tweaking and at least COLA raises. But to say you would rather shut it down....well, lets not go there.

How tough do you think it would really be to replace 40 or so airplanes? They would have that many planes replaced inside of 2 weeks if not much sooner.

 

[AV8OR]

Sounds alot like a former passenger carrier....comeon...somebody help me with the name. I think Eddie Rickenbacker used to own it at one time.

I truly don't think either pilot group has a complete understanding of what it really means to be an ACMI carrier. There really is not any true position of power from which to bargain from. You are not purple or brown and you will NEVER see any contract that remotely resembles anything close to theirs. Don't get me wrong. I'm rootin on ya'll. I hope you get it. Not likely however.

You (both groups) should be happy to be at the top of the food chain of ACMI carriers as it goes. Sure, both contracts need some tweaking and at least COLA raises. But to say you would rather shut it down....well, lets not go there.

How tough do you think it would really be to replace 40 or so airplanes? They would have that many planes replaced inside of 2 weeks if not much sooner.

I think you're wrong there. We do know what it means to be an ACMI. However, DHL has actually "scoped" us at AStar. That's why we can't fly any Christmas work for UPS like ABX does. Our ACMI prohibits it. Name one other ACMI that prohibits selling their product to a currrent customer's competition. There isn't one. Our's does.

Second, Maybe.....maybe you could get 40 or so A/C here in a hodgepodge of airlines. But heck, DHL couldn't integrate two well run outfits without losing their a$$. Furthermore, UPS couldn't even get their desired 41 ACMI aircraft to cover Christmas without using ABX for five of em, for a net 31 aircraft. If they think they can afford to gamble that again....bring it. If that's what DHL wanted to do, believe me, they'd have done it. Don't know about ABX, but AStar's scope clause is currently useless. And since DHL clearly couldn't give a rip about it anyway, why didn't they bring all the CAT/Express.Net boys on down to ILN months ago when UPS pulled out of Dayton? Cause they care about us? Don't think so.

I'm not saying they couldn't or won't give it a shot later, but, when they get here, they (DHL) be prepared to reap the whirlwind.

 

[penguin22]

The best outcome for all of us is if this lawsuite against DHL forced a merger.

Corporate mergers don't happen as a result of labor union legal proceedings. I think I've heard enough of that absurd rationalization.

 

[GoABX]

So your MECs sole intent 3 years ago was to force a merger? So if DHL said,"No, we're not doing that, instead we are transferring the 44 757s from Europe and we are going to hire like crazy." You would have said,"No, what about our fellow ABX pilot brothers." BS. I'm sure you would have fought like heck ot get us interviews, but that is it.

We did something crappy, but 'you would have done it too' is not an argument for what we did isn't in fact crappy and oh by the way will you support us?

 

[GoABX]

Intellectually we know we have have to unify, but emotionally we are still fu(king pi$$ed. What we remember is what your lawsuit actually said, not what your MEC said it meant 2 years after they didn't win.

Even our union tries to smooth things out on behalf of your union, but what was claimed by ALPA was extremely serious $hit. Had things gone your way, my kids would be eating spam while we were living in a van down by the river.