ABX update

[Bitter]

For those that ask, I would not cross the line......No way.

We need to work together to win.

Excuse my rants, i am not as bitter as I seemed.

My point was, that all the lawsuits etc, is no way to unify.

 

[AV8OR]

"We need to work together to win."

Agreed. Sweet!

 

[AV8OR]

AV8OR, How did the picketing go today?

Thanks for askin'. I was on reserve today so, info is only trickling in, but, from what I heard, we had 70 or so of our guys there, and then some combo of Polar and Spirit guys showed up for a total of about 100. But the shangri la was that, after picketing outside AStar in MIA, they recieved approval of their permit for Plantation, FL, so they loaded up the bus, set up outside DHL, and let them get a little press as well. I'd say that it was a success.

What, (other than more TRO's and BS employee spin mailings for the cubicle crowd), it will produce has yet to be seen of course.

By the way, if you guys ever decide to travel for informational picketing at ABX, blast a little Dropkick Murphys....Shipping up to Boston on the speakers on the way there, and you'll be so pi$$ed off resolute by the time you get to your destination, you'll think just drank five Guiness Drafts and someone just cursed your mother.

Cheers!

 

[HD2003]

astarlabortalks.com

 

[Joe Pilot]

Boy, you Abx guys seem a little too sensitive. It is too bad you can't see past your next pay check to realize what is trying to be done here. The Polar guys see it and now DHL takes notice that there is support. What is holding you guys back? Like someone said, even your union leaders realize it.
Remember, there is always stregnth in numbers.

 

[penguin22]

Not quite sure what you’re complaining about. You want US to get YOUR contract for you? It’s your contract, YOU negotiate for it.

The only thing we have to do is make sure OUR contract is not concessionary. And trust me, we’re NOT negotiating a concessionary contract. Make sure YOU do the same.

 

[Joe Pilot]

Wasn't asking for you to negotiate our contract. Like I said stregnth always comes in numbers. If you haven't realized it yet, our managements and DHL are pitting us against each other. If we work together (Astar/ABX/Polar) then we are all much better off and our collective managements negotiating leverage would diminish.
The reality is that we are all in this mess together, and that is the only way to beat it. When it comes for your day to picket or strike, you will have my support.

 

[Sporto]

Good luck with that

Wasn't asking for you to negotiate our contract. Like I said stregnth always comes in numbers. If you haven't realized it yet, our managements and DHL are pitting us against each other. If we work together (Astar/ABX/Polar) then we are all much better off and our collective managements negotiating leverage would diminish.
The reality is that we are all in this mess together, and that is the only way to beat it. When it comes for your day to picket or strike, you will have my support.

Support.....you must be joking. The majority of the ABX pilot group is one of the most self absorbed pilot groups out there. There are still guys out on the street and nobody really cares. I'm amazed at the amount of open time that is consumed and many of them are hungry for more. So if your looking for support from the core ABX guys you had better look elsewhere.

 

[inplaneview]

Boy, you Abx guys seem a little too sensitive. It is too bad you can't see past your next pay check to realize what is trying to be done here. The Polar guys see it and now DHL takes notice that there is support. What is holding you guys back? Like someone said, even your union leaders realize it.
Remember, there is always stregnth in numbers.

Don't expect much support from ABX guys until you guys drop the lawsuit. You're trying to take our jobs away via legal action, yet you want us to honor your picket line? I don't think so!

 

[Joe Pilot]

Don't expect much support from ABX guys until you guys drop the lawsuit. You're trying to take our jobs away via legal action, yet you want us to honor your picket line? I don't think so!

Again, you fail to see what is going on. You want to believe what others tell you, what you hear from your management or what your union lawyers say. If you don't know the specifics then you are shorting yourself.
If you haven't noticed, ABX has over 100 aircraft of which at least 80 fly for the DHL network. Do you really think that little Astar can take that from you. ALPA is going to protect and fight for the contract that was negotiated. Your guys would do the same thing if it was the other way around. The best outcome for all of us is if this lawsuite against DHL forced a merger. We would all be better off. Or we could just waite around and let DHL pit us against each other and see what comes next.
I for one and can probably say that most of my pilot group will not share in a race to the bottom. That is what DHL wants. They want outstanding on time performance with KittyHawk rates of pay. I would rather see this place shut down on our terms than to let DHL dictate our pay.

 

[abxaviator]

I understand your point of view, and why our union did not join ABX against the suit. You say "Your guys would do the same thing if it was the other way around." To understand where some ABX pilots are coming from, try to turn it around. Many in your pilot group would be fearful of the impact of such a case, even more so because we could handle all the freight.

The ultimate ramifications of the suit are unknown and that is what most are concerned with, fear of the unkown, fear of change. Remember there are almost always unintended consequences.

For the immediate future, the best thing both groups can do is refuse to race to the bottom with concessionarry contracts, stand firm and secure the contracts we deserve. As long as we fly yellow airplanes, our competition is purple and brown, not all the others.

 

[AV8OR]

Guys, yall need to know, if we win the suit, the best we could possibly see would be a monetary damage settlement. If that ever happens maybe I can by the first round for all the ABX pilots that show at BW3's and we can bury this friggin hatchet.

 

[abxaviator]

"the best we could possibly see would be a monetary damage settlement"

Wait a minute, you had me until that one. So which is it? At best a monetary award or the previously stated lofty goal of forcing a merger?

 

[AV8OR]

"the best we could possibly see would be a monetary damage settlement"

Wait a minute, you had me until that one. So which is it? At best a monetary award or the previously stated lofty goal of forcing a merger?

I was not speaking of what the goal was, just what I thought was realistic a realistic remedy as far as a judge would be concerned.

 

[penguin22]

here’s my analysis, FWIW:

ALPA made a strategic error with this lawsuit. You guys alienated the very pilot group you needed the most support from.

I wonder if ALPA National was the driver behind it more so than your local MEC. ALPA saw the larger pilot group flying for DHL was now Teamsters, and they threw a hail mary in a desperate attempt to be the surviving union. They didn’t care if they ended up sacrificing the local pilot group involved, if they failed.

Which illustrates a major difference between ALPA and Teamsters. With our local, all strategic planning is made by us, not somebody in Washington with a pile of other airline concerns on their desk. Witness our new partnership with Ver Di and our contacts on the Deutsche Post Supervisory Board. All the years you guys have had with DHL, why haven’t you reached out to them like that?

No strategic foresight, that’s why.

 

[Jurassic Jet]

They want outstanding on time performance with KittyHawk rates of pay. I would rather see this place shut down on our terms than to let DHL dictate our pay.

Sounds alot like a former passenger carrier....comeon...somebody help me with the name. I think Eddie Rickenbacker used to own it at one time.

I truly don't think either pilot group has a complete understanding of what it really means to be an ACMI carrier. There really is not any true position of power from which to bargain from. You are not purple or brown and you will NEVER see any contract that remotely resembles anything close to theirs. Don't get me wrong. I'm rootin on ya'll. I hope you get it. Not likely however.

You (both groups) should be happy to be at the top of the food chain of ACMI carriers as it goes. Sure, both contracts need some tweaking and at least COLA raises. But to say you would rather shut it down....well, lets not go there.

How tough do you think it would really be to replace 40 or so airplanes? They would have that many planes replaced inside of 2 weeks if not much sooner.

 

[AV8OR]

Sounds alot like a former passenger carrier....comeon...somebody help me with the name. I think Eddie Rickenbacker used to own it at one time.

I truly don't think either pilot group has a complete understanding of what it really means to be an ACMI carrier. There really is not any true position of power from which to bargain from. You are not purple or brown and you will NEVER see any contract that remotely resembles anything close to theirs. Don't get me wrong. I'm rootin on ya'll. I hope you get it. Not likely however.

You (both groups) should be happy to be at the top of the food chain of ACMI carriers as it goes. Sure, both contracts need some tweaking and at least COLA raises. But to say you would rather shut it down....well, lets not go there.

How tough do you think it would really be to replace 40 or so airplanes? They would have that many planes replaced inside of 2 weeks if not much sooner.

I think you're wrong there. We do know what it means to be an ACMI. However, DHL has actually "scoped" us at AStar. That's why we can't fly any Christmas work for UPS like ABX does. Our ACMI prohibits it. Name one other ACMI that prohibits selling their product to a currrent customer's competition. There isn't one. Our's does.

Second, Maybe.....maybe you could get 40 or so A/C here in a hodgepodge of airlines. But heck, DHL couldn't integrate two well run outfits without losing their a$$. Furthermore, UPS couldn't even get their desired 41 ACMI aircraft to cover Christmas without using ABX for five of em, for a net 31 aircraft. If they think they can afford to gamble that again....bring it. If that's what DHL wanted to do, believe me, they'd have done it. Don't know about ABX, but AStar's scope clause is currently useless. And since DHL clearly couldn't give a rip about it anyway, why didn't they bring all the CAT/Express.Net boys on down to ILN months ago when UPS pulled out of Dayton? Cause they care about us? Don't think so.

I'm not saying they couldn't or won't give it a shot later, but, when they get here, they (DHL) be prepared to reap the whirlwind.

 

[penguin22]

The best outcome for all of us is if this lawsuite against DHL forced a merger.

Corporate mergers don't happen as a result of labor union legal proceedings. I think I've heard enough of that absurd rationalization.

 

[GoABX]

So your MECs sole intent 3 years ago was to force a merger? So if DHL said,"No, we're not doing that, instead we are transferring the 44 757s from Europe and we are going to hire like crazy." You would have said,"No, what about our fellow ABX pilot brothers." BS. I'm sure you would have fought like heck ot get us interviews, but that is it.

We did something crappy, but 'you would have done it too' is not an argument for what we did isn't in fact crappy and oh by the way will you support us?

 

[GoABX]

Intellectually we know we have have to unify, but emotionally we are still fu(king pi$$ed. What we remember is what your lawsuit actually said, not what your MEC said it meant 2 years after they didn't win.

Even our union tries to smooth things out on behalf of your union, but what was claimed by ALPA was extremely serious $hit. Had things gone your way, my kids would be eating spam while we were living in a van down by the river.