AA's Priorities

[Zipperhead]

What does that have to do with my last post? While you're at it, why are there 1988 USAir hires on the street?

APA never cared about backgrounds, neither does ALPA or any other union. All I'm saying is that APA does not differentiate between a TWA pilot, an AA pilot, an ex ACA pilot, or whatever - if you have a seniority number at this airline, you will be recalled, period, regardless of where you came from.

Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt!!!! Drink the cool-aid....

 

[pkober]

In the concesions of 2003 did APA change the wording for TWA pilots? I don't know because I was already furloughed and living in a tent in the desert.

Did they allow all TWA (who are apparently considered AA pilot) pilots to flowback. It wasn't in the contract I got when we were stapled. If it changed than good on APA. If it didn't then that says alot. There were other things which I can't recall at this time (sounds like something Clinton would say, Ha).

I can't understand how things like that can ever be considered for only a certain group of pilots and not another, all within the same group of pilots. That's not just a slam on APA but on any other pilot union that behaves that way.

 

[pkober]

I know call backs will be in senority order.

 

[aa73]

In the concesions of 2003 did APA change the wording for TWA pilots? I don't know because I was already furloughed and living in a tent in the desert.

I don't know either.

Did they allow all TWA (who are apparently considered AA pilot) pilots to flowback. It wasn't in the contract I got when we were stapled. If it changed than good on APA. If it didn't then that says alot. There were other things which I can't recall at this time (sounds like something Clinton would say, Ha).

Again, I'm not sure, but a lot of my buddies at Eagle always told me their MEC was against allowing ANY TWA pilot to flow back. This sounds more like an ALPA issue than APA. I do know that a bunch of TWA pilots won some kind of settlement that allowed a whole bunch more to flow back.

I can't understand how things like that can ever be considered for only a certain group of pilots and not another, all within the same group of pilots. That's not just a slam on APA but on any other pilot union that behaves that way.

Happens at every pilot union during every past merger/acquisition. The stronger group will always attempt to call the shots. (SWA/Morris, DAL/PanAM, TW/OZ, etc.). This is an unfortunate fact of corporate America, although not necessarily fair.

 

[aa73]

Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt!!!! Drink the cool-aid....

OK Zipper, where in my post do I suggest I've been sipping the stuff? I am just stating facts, why not elaborate on where you might disagree with me?

 

[CitationLover]

I know call backs will be in senority order.

so an Eagle CA with a flowthrough number representing higher seniority than a nAAtive flowback will be recalled before them?

 

[Zipperhead]

AA73,,,

You say AA does not differentiate between pilot groups. While that may be true in theory, they screw every pilot group they have acquired, Reno, TWA and so on. Yes, the APA negotiated the merger, however if you don't think AA management had input into this then you are drinkin the cool-aid. Fence all TWA guys in STL/SLT, Don't you think this was done in the interest of saving money and management had a lot to do with this? The TWA FA's can forget about ever coming back. AA management does have a lot of pull in what happens to the TWA group, don't think it's ALL APA's doing.

 

[100 c.i.]

I don't know either.



Again, I'm not sure, but a lot of my buddies at Eagle always told me their MEC was against allowing ANY TWA pilot to flow back. This sounds more like an ALPA issue than APA. I do know that a bunch of TWA pilots won some kind of settlement that allowed a whole bunch more to flow back.



Happens at every pilot union during every past merger/acquisition. The stronger group will always attempt to call the shots. (SWA/Morris, DAL/PanAM, TW/OZ, etc.). This is an unfortunate fact of corporate America, although not necessarily fair.

TWA/Ozark DATE OF HIRE period.

 

[100 c.i.]

What does that have to do with my last post? While you're at it, why are there 1988 USAir hires on the street?

APA never cared about backgrounds, neither does ALPA or any other union. All I'm saying is that APA does not differentiate between a TWA pilot, an AA pilot, an ex ACA pilot, or whatever - if you have a seniority number at this airline, you will be recalled, period, regardless of where you came from.

USair guys were on street long before the merger. No offence USair guys.

 

[aa73]

AA73,,,

You say AA does not differentiate between pilot groups. While that may be true in theory, they screw every pilot group they have acquired, Reno, TWA and so on. Yes, the APA negotiated the merger, however if you don't think AA management had input into this then you are drinkin the cool-aid. Fence all TWA guys in STL/SLT, Don't you think this was done in the interest of saving money and management had a lot to do with this? The TWA FA's can forget about ever coming back. AA management does have a lot of pull in what happens to the TWA group, don't think it's ALL APA's doing.

Zipper,

What I meant was, (for the umpteenth time!) as far as pilot recalls go, APA does not differentiate between pilot groups. I say this because in one of the posts by PKober, it sounded like he was concerned that the recalls wouldn't go according to plan because "the APA doesn't give a sh$$t about TWA pilots."

As far as your point above, I have no doubt that AA mgt had a hand in it.

Finally, regarding screwing every pilot group they take over - I guess you could say that SWA screwed the Transtar/Muse Air pilots in 'the 80s (tacked on to the bottom but then completely dismantled), and the Morris boys in the 90s (tacked on to the bottom PLUS one year probation!) Were they screwed too? How did Reno pilots get screwed? They went from a tiny operation to a major carrier, in a lot of cases making more as AA F/Os than as Reno captains! Do you think they should have gotten DOH?

My point is that if the newly merged airline prospers, the employees are happy. (SWA/Morris) If the newly merged airline lays off, the employees got screwed, which is what happened to us. Our integration was designed to benefit both groups in the event that AA grew. Indeed, most of you would have remained captains at a much better pay rate than at TWA. Unfortunately, the events of 9/11 and beyond took care of that, so you got the royal shaft. And so did a lot of us. And so, it is easy to blame APA and AA when in fact, you would have been singing the AA praises had we prospered. Growth, upgrades, your own fence in STL , NY and LAX, etc, etc.

100c.i. - I am fully aware TWA/OZ got DOH. Do you know why? Simply because the TWA MEC knew that TWA hadn't hired since 1979 - while OZ kept hiring into the 80s - and a DOH integration pretty much put 80% of the OZ boys at the bottom of your list. ALPA merger policy was not followed, and the TWA MEC (the more powerful of the two) called the shots. Then, Carl Icahn furloughed a bunch of them out of seniority, right after the merger. That's why OZ pilots feel they got screwed. Which proves my point - in any merger/acquisition, the more powerful MEC/union calls the shots before binding arbitration settles in. (if there even is any binding arbitration.)

 

[Hagar17]

since seniority is important to you.

so would you support a recall that included the eagle flowthroughs that have numbers higher than some furloughees?

whatever

 

[stlflyguy]

Zipper,

What I meant was, (for the umpteenth time!) as far as pilot recalls go, APA does not differentiate between pilot groups. I say this because in one of the posts by PKober, it sounded like he was concerned that the recalls wouldn't go according to plan because "the APA doesn't give a sh$$t about TWA pilots."

As far as your point above, I have no doubt that AA mgt had a hand in it.

Finally, regarding screwing every pilot group they take over - I guess you could say that SWA screwed the Transtar/Muse Air pilots in 'the 80s (tacked on to the bottom but then completely dismantled), and the Morris boys in the 90s (tacked on to the bottom PLUS one year probation!) Were they screwed too? How did Reno pilots get screwed? They went from a tiny operation to a major carrier, in a lot of cases making more as AA F/Os than as Reno captains! Do you think they should have gotten DOH?

My point is that if the newly merged airline prospers, the employees are happy. (SWA/Morris) If the newly merged airline lays off, the employees got screwed, which is what happened to us. Our integration was designed to benefit both groups in the event that AA grew. Indeed, most of you would have remained captains at a much better pay rate than at TWA. Unfortunately, the events of 9/11 and beyond took care of that, so you got the royal shaft. And so did a lot of us. And so, it is easy to blame APA and AA when in fact, you would have been singing the AA praises had we prospered. Growth, upgrades, your own fence in STL , NY and LAX, etc, etc.

100c.i. - I am fully aware TWA/OZ got DOH. Do you know why? Simply because the TWA MEC knew that TWA hadn't hired since 1979 - while OZ kept hiring into the 80s - and a DOH integration pretty much put 80% of the OZ boys at the bottom of your list. ALPA merger policy was not followed, and the TWA MEC (the more powerful of the two) called the shots. Then, Carl Icahn furloughed a bunch of them out of seniority, right after the merger. That's why OZ pilots feel they got screwed. Which proves my point - in any merger/acquisition, the more powerful MEC/union calls the shots before binding arbitration settles in. (if there even is any binding arbitration.)

Let's review: the Ozark pilots SIGNED the merger document, the TWA pilots in the American deal didn't. Should Ozark have been slotted in higher (i.e., BETTER than date of hire)? The OZ captains were given a protective cell before their seniority was realized.

Carl Icahn didn't furlough them "out of seniority" because they were still on their respective certificate without an integration agreed to. Similar to when TWA LLC and American were BOTH furloughing prior to the "integration."

So while we're at it, how much did the Reno guys lose? How many years at most? Five? Six? Tell me how much the senior-most Reno type lost and I'll bet it doesn't equate to half of what TWA's seniority number one lost. Better yet, find a senior Reno guy and ask him about the non-ALPA sponsored pilots' lawsuit against the APA. When did that suit go away and why?

Let's take another step here and talk quality of life. In my opinion, after six months of the "greenbook" I'll take back my TWA work rules and pay gladly.

For every time that you throw out the Muse Air/SWA merger I'll throw the People's Express/CAL merger at you.

I would have been happy with the "Oz agreement" if APA had wanted it...after all, they were touting that it was a "heinous" agreement, right? So why not offer it to the TWA pilots? Because it was too good!

Let's stop using the economy as the reason for what happened: the APA saw many near-term retirements on the TWA list and knew exactly where to draw the line.

stlflyguy

 

[CitationLover]

whatever

i guess seniority isn't important then.......

pick up any OT with 3000 on the street?

 

[aa73]

i guess seniority isn't important then.......

pick up any OT with 3000 on the street?

Citation Lover,

In order for your flow throughs to be "recalled" to American, they would have to be furloughed in the first place. They were never furloughed because they never got on with AA. So, how can an Eagle pilot get recalled to AA if he was never there in the first place?

Seniority rules, but they have to be hired here first.

 

[aa73]

stlflyguy,

let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

regards,
73

 

[Draginass]

so an Eagle CA with a flowthrough number representing higher seniority than a nAAtive flowback will be recalled before them?

An Eagle flowthru that has never been employed by AA, regardless of a phantom seniority number, is not entitles to "recall" to AA. It's contractural. I think you know that.

I love posts like this. AE guys trash AA/APA pilots, then complain why they can't get there faster. Very entertaining.

 

[TWA Dude]

This OZ/TWA stuff needs to be put to rest. The OZ did, indeed, get screwed by a combination of Icahn and an arrogant TWA MEC. Nobody here needs to feel offended because those guys were long retired before the AA buyout. I've heard it said that the TWA mentality in the '80s was similar to AA in the '00s. ALPA Merger policy was not allowed to be followed. OZ got DOH but it wasn't a good deal for them. Yes, OZ signed the deal because they felt coerced by Icahn who was threatening to furlough all of them. The TWA MEC in 2001 felt similarly coerced to sign away our merger clauses by a judge who said he'd abrogate our entire contract to allow the sale to close.

Does any of this matter today? No. ALPA Merger policy was of course not followed in TWA/AA so no matter what anyone says it can't be called "fair" because the process was entirely run by the APA. Whether an arbitrator would've ruled differently is anyone's guess.

 

[CitationLover]

An Eagle flowthru that has never been employed by AA, regardless of a phantom seniority number, is not entitles to "recall" to AA. It's contractural. I think you know that.

I love posts like this. AE guys trash AA/APA pilots, then complain why they can't get there faster. Very entertaining.

so a seniority number is a "phantom" seniority number. they didn't have to interview, they didn't need to apply.

no trashing, just asking if seniority is being followed.

picking up OT, which a lot of people do, while 3000 is on the street is trashing every single furloughed AA/APA pilots.

 

[aa73]

so a seniority number is a "phantom" seniority number. they didn't have to interview, they didn't need to apply.

no trashing, just asking if seniority is being followed.

picking up OT, which a lot of people do, while 3000 is on the street is trashing every single furloughed AA/APA pilots.

Citation,

In a way, yes... the "flow thoughs" who never flowed have a unique situation in that, they were assigned a seniority number but never came onto the property.

What we are talking about is the recall of *furloughed* pilots. The "flow through" Eagle pilots who never came onto AA property were never *furloughed* from AA... therefore they have no recall rights. Regardless of the fact that they have a seniority #.

Picking up OT is a hot issue at AA and a lot of us are ticked off because of it.

Hope this clears it up,
73

 

[Hagar17]

i guess seniority isn't important then.......

pick up any OT with 3000 on the street?

Nope, d!ckhead, I'm not picking up any "OT with 3000 on the street", considering I'm furloughed from AA.

However, before I was furloughed in 2004, I made the choice not to pick up open time above my scheduled line (I did trip trade). I am currently on a military reserve mission with a current AA pilot. He picks up open time. I do not begrudge him for that. Should AA pilots not have picked up open time for five years? Not picking up open time was my choice from 2001-03. I didn't think it was right at the time, but I had the reserves to fall back on, and really didn't want to fly extra time for AA.

As far as Eagle guys, save me the union brotherhood BS. Would you feel bad for the TWA bubbas you would leapfrog on the AA seniority list, one that you've never worked a day on? Do you feel bad about all the former AA routes AE flies, contributing to the further furlough of AA (and former TWA) pilots, thereby further delaying your own flowthrough to AA? You AE guys mystify me. You cheer when AE takes from AA, but you're too stupid to realize AMR just cut your throat.