AA's Priorities

[Hagar17]

since seniority is important to you.

so would you support a recall that included the eagle flowthroughs that have numbers higher than some furloughees?

whatever

 

[stlflyguy]

Zipper,

What I meant was, (for the umpteenth time!) as far as pilot recalls go, APA does not differentiate between pilot groups. I say this because in one of the posts by PKober, it sounded like he was concerned that the recalls wouldn't go according to plan because "the APA doesn't give a sh$$t about TWA pilots."

As far as your point above, I have no doubt that AA mgt had a hand in it.

Finally, regarding screwing every pilot group they take over - I guess you could say that SWA screwed the Transtar/Muse Air pilots in 'the 80s (tacked on to the bottom but then completely dismantled), and the Morris boys in the 90s (tacked on to the bottom PLUS one year probation!) Were they screwed too? How did Reno pilots get screwed? They went from a tiny operation to a major carrier, in a lot of cases making more as AA F/Os than as Reno captains! Do you think they should have gotten DOH?

My point is that if the newly merged airline prospers, the employees are happy. (SWA/Morris) If the newly merged airline lays off, the employees got screwed, which is what happened to us. Our integration was designed to benefit both groups in the event that AA grew. Indeed, most of you would have remained captains at a much better pay rate than at TWA. Unfortunately, the events of 9/11 and beyond took care of that, so you got the royal shaft. And so did a lot of us. And so, it is easy to blame APA and AA when in fact, you would have been singing the AA praises had we prospered. Growth, upgrades, your own fence in STL , NY and LAX, etc, etc.

100c.i. - I am fully aware TWA/OZ got DOH. Do you know why? Simply because the TWA MEC knew that TWA hadn't hired since 1979 - while OZ kept hiring into the 80s - and a DOH integration pretty much put 80% of the OZ boys at the bottom of your list. ALPA merger policy was not followed, and the TWA MEC (the more powerful of the two) called the shots. Then, Carl Icahn furloughed a bunch of them out of seniority, right after the merger. That's why OZ pilots feel they got screwed. Which proves my point - in any merger/acquisition, the more powerful MEC/union calls the shots before binding arbitration settles in. (if there even is any binding arbitration.)

Let's review: the Ozark pilots SIGNED the merger document, the TWA pilots in the American deal didn't. Should Ozark have been slotted in higher (i.e., BETTER than date of hire)? The OZ captains were given a protective cell before their seniority was realized.

Carl Icahn didn't furlough them "out of seniority" because they were still on their respective certificate without an integration agreed to. Similar to when TWA LLC and American were BOTH furloughing prior to the "integration."

So while we're at it, how much did the Reno guys lose? How many years at most? Five? Six? Tell me how much the senior-most Reno type lost and I'll bet it doesn't equate to half of what TWA's seniority number one lost. Better yet, find a senior Reno guy and ask him about the non-ALPA sponsored pilots' lawsuit against the APA. When did that suit go away and why?

Let's take another step here and talk quality of life. In my opinion, after six months of the "greenbook" I'll take back my TWA work rules and pay gladly.

For every time that you throw out the Muse Air/SWA merger I'll throw the People's Express/CAL merger at you.

I would have been happy with the "Oz agreement" if APA had wanted it...after all, they were touting that it was a "heinous" agreement, right? So why not offer it to the TWA pilots? Because it was too good!

Let's stop using the economy as the reason for what happened: the APA saw many near-term retirements on the TWA list and knew exactly where to draw the line.

stlflyguy

 

[CitationLover]

whatever

i guess seniority isn't important then.......

pick up any OT with 3000 on the street?

 

[aa73]

i guess seniority isn't important then.......

pick up any OT with 3000 on the street?

Citation Lover,

In order for your flow throughs to be "recalled" to American, they would have to be furloughed in the first place. They were never furloughed because they never got on with AA. So, how can an Eagle pilot get recalled to AA if he was never there in the first place?

Seniority rules, but they have to be hired here first.

 

[aa73]

stlflyguy,

let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

regards,
73

 

[Draginass]

so an Eagle CA with a flowthrough number representing higher seniority than a nAAtive flowback will be recalled before them?

An Eagle flowthru that has never been employed by AA, regardless of a phantom seniority number, is not entitles to "recall" to AA. It's contractural. I think you know that.

I love posts like this. AE guys trash AA/APA pilots, then complain why they can't get there faster. Very entertaining.

 

[TWA Dude]

This OZ/TWA stuff needs to be put to rest. The OZ did, indeed, get screwed by a combination of Icahn and an arrogant TWA MEC. Nobody here needs to feel offended because those guys were long retired before the AA buyout. I've heard it said that the TWA mentality in the '80s was similar to AA in the '00s. ALPA Merger policy was not allowed to be followed. OZ got DOH but it wasn't a good deal for them. Yes, OZ signed the deal because they felt coerced by Icahn who was threatening to furlough all of them. The TWA MEC in 2001 felt similarly coerced to sign away our merger clauses by a judge who said he'd abrogate our entire contract to allow the sale to close.

Does any of this matter today? No. ALPA Merger policy was of course not followed in TWA/AA so no matter what anyone says it can't be called "fair" because the process was entirely run by the APA. Whether an arbitrator would've ruled differently is anyone's guess.

 

[CitationLover]

An Eagle flowthru that has never been employed by AA, regardless of a phantom seniority number, is not entitles to "recall" to AA. It's contractural. I think you know that.

I love posts like this. AE guys trash AA/APA pilots, then complain why they can't get there faster. Very entertaining.

so a seniority number is a "phantom" seniority number. they didn't have to interview, they didn't need to apply.

no trashing, just asking if seniority is being followed.

picking up OT, which a lot of people do, while 3000 is on the street is trashing every single furloughed AA/APA pilots.

 

[aa73]

so a seniority number is a "phantom" seniority number. they didn't have to interview, they didn't need to apply.

no trashing, just asking if seniority is being followed.

picking up OT, which a lot of people do, while 3000 is on the street is trashing every single furloughed AA/APA pilots.

Citation,

In a way, yes... the "flow thoughs" who never flowed have a unique situation in that, they were assigned a seniority number but never came onto the property.

What we are talking about is the recall of *furloughed* pilots. The "flow through" Eagle pilots who never came onto AA property were never *furloughed* from AA... therefore they have no recall rights. Regardless of the fact that they have a seniority #.

Picking up OT is a hot issue at AA and a lot of us are ticked off because of it.

Hope this clears it up,
73

 

[Hagar17]

i guess seniority isn't important then.......

pick up any OT with 3000 on the street?

Nope, d!ckhead, I'm not picking up any "OT with 3000 on the street", considering I'm furloughed from AA.

However, before I was furloughed in 2004, I made the choice not to pick up open time above my scheduled line (I did trip trade). I am currently on a military reserve mission with a current AA pilot. He picks up open time. I do not begrudge him for that. Should AA pilots not have picked up open time for five years? Not picking up open time was my choice from 2001-03. I didn't think it was right at the time, but I had the reserves to fall back on, and really didn't want to fly extra time for AA.

As far as Eagle guys, save me the union brotherhood BS. Would you feel bad for the TWA bubbas you would leapfrog on the AA seniority list, one that you've never worked a day on? Do you feel bad about all the former AA routes AE flies, contributing to the further furlough of AA (and former TWA) pilots, thereby further delaying your own flowthrough to AA? You AE guys mystify me. You cheer when AE takes from AA, but you're too stupid to realize AMR just cut your throat.

 

[pkober]

so an Eagle CA with a flowthrough number representing higher seniority than a nAAtive flowback will be recalled before them?

If his senority number is higher, than absolutely. Will that happen? I doubt it.

 

[furloughfodder]

If his senority number is higher, than absolutely. Will that happen? I doubt it.

This doesn't even make sense. How can you possibly recall an Eagle guy who as never lost his job due to furlough, never missed a paycheck, never even worked for AA, before a pilot that is on the street?

That's kind of like me saying, "ALL 2700 pilots that were furloughed from AA should flowback to Eagle, and furlough all the Eagle guys that are junior."

Doesn't make sense does it? Show me your fulough letter and I will demand your recall.

 

[ils2minimums]

Nope, d!ckhead, I'm not picking up any "OT with 3000 on the street", considering I'm furloughed from AA.

However, before I was furloughed in 2004, I made the choice not to pick up open time above my scheduled line (I did trip trade). I am currently on a military reserve mission with a current AA pilot. He picks up open time. I do not begrudge him for that. Should AA pilots not have picked up open time for five years? Not picking up open time was my choice from 2001-03. I didn't think it was right at the time, but I had the reserves to fall back on, and really didn't want to fly extra time for AA.

As far as Eagle guys, save me the union brotherhood BS. Would you feel bad for the TWA bubbas you would leapfrog on the AA seniority list, one that you've never worked a day on? Do you feel bad about all the former AA routes AE flies, contributing to the further furlough of AA (and former TWA) pilots, thereby further delaying your own flowthrough to AA? You AE guys mystify me. You cheer when AE takes from AA, but you're too stupid to realize AMR just cut your throat.

Excellent post, start to finish.

 

[100 c.i.]

Nope, d!ckhead, I'm not picking up any "OT with 3000 on the street", considering I'm furloughed from AA.

However, before I was furloughed in 2004, I made the choice not to pick up open time above my scheduled line (I did trip trade). I am currently on a military reserve mission with a current AA pilot. He picks up open time. I do not begrudge him for that. Should AA pilots not have picked up open time for five years? Not picking up open time was my choice from 2001-03. I didn't think it was right at the time, but I had the reserves to fall back on, and really didn't want to fly extra time for AA.

As far as Eagle guys, save me the union brotherhood BS. Would you feel bad for the TWA bubbas you would leapfrog on the AA seniority list, one that you've never worked a day on? Do you feel bad about all the former AA routes AE flies, contributing to the further furlough of AA (and former TWA) pilots, thereby further delaying your own flowthrough to AA? You AE guys mystify me. You cheer when AE takes from AA, but you're too stupid to realize AMR just cut your throat.[/quo
Can we put this in every crew lounge at eagle, awsome post dude.

 

[AAflyer]

This OZ/TWA stuff needs to be put to rest. The OZ did, indeed, get screwed by a combination of Icahn and an arrogant TWA MEC. Nobody here needs to feel offended because those guys were long retired before the AA buyout. I've heard it said that the TWA mentality in the '80s was similar to AA in the '00s. ALPA Merger policy was not allowed to be followed. OZ got DOH but it wasn't a good deal for them. Yes, OZ signed the deal because they felt coerced by Icahn who was threatening to furlough all of them. The TWA MEC in 2001 felt similarly coerced to sign away our merger clauses by a judge who said he'd abrogate our entire contract to allow the sale to close.

Does any of this matter today? No. ALPA Merger policy was of course not followed in TWA/AA so no matter what anyone says it can't be called "fair" because the process was entirely run by the APA. Whether an arbitrator would've ruled differently is anyone's guess.

You are a stand up man. Thanks for the post, and the others I have read of yours. You have a lot of integrity. Sorry for your treatment here, I hope things work out for you in the intergration over there.

regards,

AA

 

[AA717driver]

TWAdude is NOT a stand up guy. He molests small animals and dresses in women's clothing on layovers.

No, wait, that's me. Never mind. TC

 

[CitationLover]

Nope, d!ckhead, I'm not picking up any "OT with 3000 on the street", considering I'm furloughed from AA.

However, before I was furloughed in 2004, I made the choice not to pick up open time above my scheduled line (I did trip trade). I am currently on a military reserve mission with a current AA pilot. He picks up open time. I do not begrudge him for that. Should AA pilots not have picked up open time for five years? Not picking up open time was my choice from 2001-03. I didn't think it was right at the time, but I had the reserves to fall back on, and really didn't want to fly extra time for AA.

As far as Eagle guys, save me the union brotherhood BS. Would you feel bad for the TWA bubbas you would leapfrog on the AA seniority list, one that you've never worked a day on? Do you feel bad about all the former AA routes AE flies, contributing to the further furlough of AA (and former TWA) pilots, thereby further delaying your own flowthrough to AA? You AE guys mystify me. You cheer when AE takes from AA, but you're too stupid to realize AMR just cut your throat.

well d!ckhead (how original) i didn't vote on a contract that ALLOWED AE to fly those routes. picking up OT is being a whore plain and simple with people on the street.

i'm simply saying it's not all about seniority at AMR, nonsense. ask any TWA pilot if its about seniority. ask the TWA flight attendants. i've had TWA pilots tell me the reduction in domestic flying at AA is a conspiracy against them (not an eagle thing) since it would reduce their CA slots in STL.

i do not cheer when AE takes AA routes away, you are lumping issues together (if you think so please provide an example). when you get recalled walk around with your dorky scope badge backer, do not smile at others, and blame eagle for all the ills of society further proving the nAAzi stereotype.

aa73, RN at eagle wishes you well pisano.

 

[aa73]

aa73, RN at eagle wishes you well pisano.

Hey, how's the Paesan doing! Tell him "ciao" for me.

Look, both of you, this is nonsense to be arguing about stuff that's out of our control. When I talked about seniority, I was only referring to recalls - meaning, recalls of furloughed pilots go in seniority order. Punto y basta! As far as who stole who's flying, it's out of our control. Last time I checked, we both have chickens on our tails, let's all get along now. "ciao",

73

 

[pkober]

This doesn't even make sense. How can you possibly recall an Eagle guy who as never lost his job due to furlough, never missed a paycheck, never even worked for AA, before a pilot that is on the street?

That's kind of like me saying, "ALL 2700 pilots that were furloughed from AA should flowback to Eagle, and furlough all the Eagle guys that are junior."

Doesn't make sense does it? Show me your fulough letter and I will demand your recall.

I misunderstood his question. I thought he meant a Eagle pilot who has already crossed over. If he hasn't crossed over then he needs to wait until all furloughees are recalled then he can come over. Does that make more sense for you?

Don't worry APA made sure all TWA pilots couldn't flow back!

I put my furlough letter, along with anything from APA, in the trash.

 

[Kugelblitz]

Hey PK Ober. Thanks again for the great time!!! Tonight on the van ride from the airport I talked to some AA guys. They were out of ORD and were assigned to cover flying in STL/SLT because THEY ARE SHORT PILOTS!!!!

Recall?

 

[Kugelblitz]

Furloughees don't pay any dues.
I would like to return to a strong company, not a bastardized contract.

This furloughee paid his dues right up to when I got axed and wouldn't mind being represented. Thanks for the sentiments.

 

[Kugelblitz]

I heard...If I had a dollar for every time I heard that. Why don't you post the article? The APA president is Ralph Hunter, and the Comm Char is Denny Breslin. If the article didn't even get the "players" right, how accurate is the article?


AA

P.S. If this is just another of the many digs at AA, and AA pilots then just say so, I don' have the time to sort through the bull********************.

P.S.S AA is renegotiating it's contract? Did you mean AA opened the pilot's CBA early under sect. 6? Could you atleast make a statement that is accurate. As for the 5 million dollar man (excuse me, FO) Every company has it's one percent. You must be your companies.

I have been out of the loop so didn't get a chance to respond. As far as your post goes, gee, I guess if I don't have the personnel details right then the overall issue must be nonsequitar. Airwise News.com, take it up with them cap'n correction.

My mistake, the AA pilots are a good and just bunch. Making a one-way, faux fence around STL was a wise and just thing to do. I should have known that every AA guy who is now flying out of what was my hub was perfectly in line with their career expectations. Clearly, with all the people gladly lapping up flying out of the STL hub and picking up open time to boot, only 1% of AA would be classified as the '5 million dollar man'.

As far as your 1% goes, takes one to know one huh?

Be sure to point out all of my typos. You seem to have time for that kind of extraneous bull****************.

 

[My name is EARL]

I asked a flowback I know about recalls. He called his local APA rep, who he said is a straight shooter on any questions. He said he had not heard of recalls. He did say that APA has seen the block hours for next year and it was strange that they expect 1.5% of the pilots to retire, and next years flying is reduced 1.5%.

 

[WyoHerkdriver]

The math does not add up! AA is going to lose much more than 1.5% of the pilot force next year. In fact, age 60 retirements alone number around 285 and they will probably lose another 200 to early retirements and other attrition. Based on a current total of 9000 active pilots, AA is going to lose somewhere around 5% next year. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if AA announces a 5% reduction in flying for next year.

 

[aa73]

The math does not add up! AA is going to lose much more than 1.5% of the pilot force next year. In fact, age 60 retirements alone number around 285 and they will probably lose another 200 to early retirements and other attrition. Based on a current total of 9000 active pilots, AA is going to lose somewhere around 5% next year. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if AA announces a 5% reduction in flying for next year.

Correct. The status quo at AA, as they've proven for the past two years, is that recalls are out of the question until we sign a new contract. This will take us at least a year or two. So AA will just keep parking jets every six months and lose market share until they whip us into submission. That's the only way they will keep the airline properly manned. Sad but true. It's also a win-win for the airline because the more the shrinking, the higher the stock price, the higher the PUP bonuses for management.

73

 

[CitationLover]

is furlough seniority high on the negotiations? my understanding is previous furloughs at AA have gotten their time on the street accounted for.

 

[pkober]

I have been out of the loop so didn't get a chance to respond. As far as your post goes, gee, I guess if I don't have the personnel details right then the overall issue must be nonsequitar. Airwise News.com, take it up with them cap'n correction.

My mistake, the AA pilots are a good and just bunch. Making a one-way, faux fence around STL was a wise and just thing to do. I should have known that every AA guy who is now flying out of what was my hub was perfectly in line with their career expectations. Clearly, with all the people gladly lapping up flying out of the STL hub and picking up open time to boot, only 1% of AA would be classified as the '5 million dollar man'.

As far as your 1% goes, takes one to know one huh?

Be sure to point out all of my typos. You seem to have time for that kind of extraneous bull****************.

Kugel,

Those pilots who pick up open time, at any airline, while pilots are furloughed are no better than SCABS. They may not be scabs in the true sense of the word, but they exhibit true SCAB behavior.

Don't worry about AA, we're in a better, happier and better smelling place now.

BTW, you spelled typo wrong and you added too many ***** after bull.

Peace

 

[twasurfer]

The new SCAB- S. screwing others for C. cash A. anyway possible is not B. below me.
When I get recalled I will buy you a Bud Lite- Mr. Open Time Picker Upper. Your a real AAmerican zero, I mean hero. F'n D bags

 

[Gorilla]

Without adding to the daily AA/TWA flogging - we all know the details - I don't understand how a large group of furloughees can absolutely *despise* everything about AA, APA, yet still want to return to work.

"AA SUCKS! I hate everything there. Their management sucks. The gate agents drive me crazy. I hate the whiny FA's. The pay is a joke, benefits are eroding. The thought of waking up and working there makes me nauseous. But please, please I really want to get back to work there."

I realize guys need to put food on their table. This industry has so much pure, random chance associated with it, it's bizarre. I was lucky and missed the furloughs by about 1,000 numbers back in the '90's.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't look forward to the poison atmosphere we're going to have when some percentage of the furloughees return. FWIW I've picked up maybe a half-dozen trips in a decade... I usually fly my line and that's it. But yes, there are time ho's who really manipulate the system, accrue fly-throughs, and probably fly 86 hours/month when the average line is maybe 73. Our DFW 737I lines for October average in the 60's.

 

[pkober]

TWAsurfer,

thanks for the laugh.

Gorilla,

Who says we want to go back there? Most of us have new jobs. We will probably stay where we are unless we're furloughed from our current job. You are right, there is going to be alot of bad feeling from the TWA furloughees that do return.

As far as the puesdo scabs picking up trips. Has APA come out against this policy? During our last contract talks (TWA) the union asked that no one pick up open time. This would put pressure on management. When some idiots picked up trips there names were posted on the wailing wall at ops. It only took a few days before no more trips were picked up. I just think if APA was serious about recalls they would do things like this.