AA toxic culture

[IBNAV8R]

I'm trying to fathom what kind of fantasy world you guys are living in? What other industry would honor your longevity from another company when your skills, at face value (notwithstanding a few weeks of OJT), have nothing more to offer than those of anyone else with similar certificates?

 

[Mamma]

My opinion, a common pay-rate per type of equipment would work better than a seniority system. For example, a 737 pays $100/hr for an FO and $170 for a Capt. Industry standard. Companies can go as far above this rate with raises or benefits but not below. If you are a 777 captain with United and wanted to go to Delta, you move laterally at the industry rate. If you want to stay at Alaska, get the 737 type rating as an FO and apply to move up otherwise stay an FO. You could also apply to another carrier who is looking for 737 Capt newhires or a different domicile you would like to live in. You may have to pay for your type rating but look at it as a investment in yourself. Just like higher education (MBAs) for business folks. Retirements, growth and other vacancies would keep movement going forward. This would take care of portability; shiny new jet syndrome; new carrier entrants who cannot afford to do business without subsidies from employees. Companies would like this because it would reduce training costs in hard times and also create a known cost with our wages.

 

[HalinTexas]

I'm trying to fathom what kind of fantasy world you guys are living in? What other industry would honor your longevity from another company when your skills, at face value (notwithstanding a few weeks of OJT), have nothing more to offer than those of anyone else with similar certificates?

Have you interviewed for a flying job lately? They don't really care if you can fly, they just want you to play well with others.

 

[HA25]

Like a 30 year Great Lakes 1900 capt could become a FedEx 777 captain because Great Lakes went under? (For example)

Still trying to figure out how this national DOH seniority list would work out in real life. IMHO, its a pipe dream thought up by pilots that have either been unlucky or have made bad career decisions, (which often includes bad luck) and will not happen in my lifetime.

if he held a 777 type rating with 500 hours or something, and was current, I imagine yes...


In reality, the 777 guy would be a 30 year AA or CAL guy... ?

 

[Flyby1206]

Never. Going. To. Happen.

 

[HA25]

Never. Going. To. Happen.

Never. Said. It. Would.

 

[waveflyer]

Never. Going. To. Happen.

Then what's YOUR solution dbag?

You and the multitudes of pilots who think like you are why we have such a lack of career freedom-- and continue to get taken advantage of.

Newsflash- our system worked before deregulation bc you could expect your airline to last your career- now? Can ANY of us truly expect our airline to last 30 years?

 

[HA25]

Newsflash- our system worked before deregulation bc you could expect your airline to last your career- now? Can ANY of us truly expect our airline to last 30 years?

And that's just it... most of these idiots have no idea that this is the case... they see their airline as an empire, going no where.. and expect to retire rich from it... reality is, based on the history since 1977, they'll unlikely do so and there's an evil part of me that wishes they experience the same fate as those who ended their days at Eastern, Pan Am or more recently ATA... just so they can get a taste of the real world... but I'm sure they will.. I'd bank on it as a matter of fact.

 

[chase]

Pilots complaining about a "seniority system" is like a lifeguard complaining that they don't like to get wet.

Please, can we put it to rest and move on to topics that has some point?

Thinking outside the box is fine but one must also deal with reality and understand what the term futile means.

Seniority is good for some, bad for others; how is that different than anything else. Different airlines operate with different business models and to expect to force upon them an employment protocol of having to hire pilots from a national seniority list is nonsense.

The topic of the thread is "AA Toxic Culture" not "why the seniority system is bad".

I have many friends at AA and they are great folks. I understand their frustration.

They as a company (management and employees) are doing something however that is one of the finest things that is occurring in the industry and that is supporting a non-profit, Snowball Express, from Dec 8-13 in Dallas, TX.

Their pilots, flight attendants are working for free; management is working with the volunteers to bring over 1700 widows and children of military fallen heroes to Dallas, TX for 5 days, 4 nights, all expenses paid to be with other children of those military members who have died while serving since 9/11. It is the largest airlift of its kind by any airline...a very noble cause by some great airline employees.

Thanks to all of the AA employees and other vols who are helping out....for those few days they are working toward a common goal and it is a wonderful thing to see firsthand.

Sorry for the diversion from the fantasy of a national seniority list to the reality of an airline and its employees doings something truly remarkable that changes the lives of thousands in a positive way.

 

[Kalifornia]

There's not a chance a national seniority lists will ever work. There are a thousand variables with the most important one being the egos of each pilot hiring division. It's taken forever just to get United and Continental pilots figured out and they are similar carriers. The much better solution is to encourage airlines to have higher pay and work conditions especially for new hires so no one pilot is scraping buy trying to commute to New York. Which also means discouraging pilots for working for bottom of the barrel carriers. The quality of life should be divided better within a carrier like a good corporate pilot job.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Like a 30 year Great Lakes 1900 capt could become a FedEx 777 captain because Great Lakes went under? (For example)

Are there any 30 year Great Lakes CAs? So this example is ridiculous on its face.

Still trying to figure out how this national DOH seniority list would work out in real life..

Here's how it would be valuable: In the case of a merger, SLIs would be straight DoH. Additionally, if an airline went belly up, there could be a central pool of available pilots ranked by NSL DoH where employers could go for interviewees.

However, if you voluntarily leave your employer for greener pastures, you would go to the bottom of the new seniority list while maintaining your NSL DoH number for future reference.

 

[BrickTop]

hey at least it's a way to keep some movement going while they wait for age 65 to catch up

One of the most IMMATURE and distasteful comments I have ever read on these boards.

By the looks of your avatar I'm going to venture you are another mid 20s arrogant momma's boy with an over inflated sense of self-worth and a wasted investment by your employer who only justified your hiring through mandated workforce "diversity." On a personal note, If you are ever in MSP and would like a lesson on how to save your teeth and self embarrassment from public humiliation, send me a PM and we can arrange to teach you some manners. GROW UP.

 

[scoreboardII]

Pilots complaining about a "seniority system" is like a lifeguard complaining that they don't like to get wet.

Please, can we put it to rest and move on to topics that has some point?

Thinking outside the box is fine but one must also deal with reality and understand what the term futile means.

Seniority is good for some, bad for others; how is that different than anything else. Different airlines operate with different business models and to expect to force upon them an employment protocol of having to hire pilots from a national seniority list is nonsense.

The topic of the thread is "AA Toxic Culture" not "why the seniority system is bad".

I have many friends at AA and they are great folks. I understand their frustration.

They as a company (management and employees) are doing something however that is one of the finest things that is occurring in the industry and that is supporting a non-profit, Snowball Express, from Dec 8-13 in Dallas, TX.

Their pilots, flight attendants are working for free; management is working with the volunteers to bring over 1700 widows and children of military fallen heroes to Dallas, TX for 5 days, 4 nights, all expenses paid to be with other children of those military members who have died while serving since 9/11. It is the largest airlift of its kind by any airline...a very noble cause by some great airline employees.

Thanks to all of the AA employees and other vols who are helping out....for those few days they are working toward a common goal and it is a wonderful thing to see firsthand.

Sorry for the diversion from the fantasy of a national seniority list to the reality of an airline and its employees doings something truly remarkable that changes the lives of thousands in a positive way.

Wow, thats a new low in low class thread hijacking and cheap plugging of a good cause.

 

[scoreboardII]

We are check out clerks.

If after 20 years of working as a clerk at Walmart you quit and go to Target, you start at entry level wage for a Target checkout clerk. You don't start as mid-level management.

Stop dreaming of an industry wide seniority list, it won't happen because the companies won't let it happen.

 

[RT8VA]

You guys are all looking at the seniority system as the penalty of a lifetime because you look at the lateral success stories and you cringe that we cant move laterally. The truth is for every one of those there are workers that spent years at a company and because they were deemed less productive then their replacement worker or not up with whatever the company needed or simply not a friend with the guy making the choice that were put out on the street with a few months severance pay and a good luck. The job market in all jobs is pretty dry right now and the more senior we get the more we cost the company and the less production we have to put out for the same or more compensation. Seniority has it's penalties but it also has it's relaxing parts too, we don't have to worry about whether it is our turn on the chopping block and then end of every quarter once we reach a certain level of seniority. Every one here thinks it is easy to leave aviation and work in the free market, if you have friends that do things other then fly you know that isn't always the truth and never with out hard work.

The origianal thing about this thread was about AA pilots who are feeling the pressure good luck to you guys I hope it all works out you deserve it. Just remember the office doesn't change and the guys and girls you are flying with will be the same before and after a contract try to enjoy what you love about the job forget about management posturing that you cant control and enjoy your families or friends.

Peace

 

[IBNAV8R]

The ironic thing is that AA is the poster-child for the want of a national seniority list.

 

[flythere]

if it wasnt for this seniority system, pilots would be free to move/leave AA for other carriers. Maybe its time to revisit the system.

Sounds like one of those OWS protesters! Let me guess, you just finished college/flight school with a mountain of debt. The prospects of starting at Skywest or one of the other regionals making $20.00 an hour is just not fair! So YOU, want to jump right to the left seat of a wide-body so YOU can make decent wages right?!?!

Screw all the rest of us who have worked at these crummy wages, sacrificed years of our lives and who were aware of these things when we jumped into the profession!!

WELL, I've got a news flash for you,,,,,, If you don't like the system get out!! This is america, at last check a free country! Nobody is forcing you to stay in this line of work!!!!! If you don't like it, go become a politician or a doctor.

You sound like one of those whinners out there demanding that the govt forgive your student loans, force those with money to pay for those without!

If this county, this system is sooo screwed up, then riddle me this, why do people from all over this planet come here to get ahead?? If this county, this system is so screwed up that a small minority want to fundamentally change our system, why are people literally killing themselves trying to get here?? They stow away in the gear wells of airliners, they shove themselves dozens at a time into shipping containers, float in overloaded boats and walk dozens of miles across the desert to get here!!

If it's that bad, why are they still trying to get here???????????????????

Why don't you whinners shut up, take a bath and get a job!!!! You may have to work two or three jobs until you make it, but atleast you have that opportunity!!!!! NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE!!!!!

I'm done ranting, next!!!!!

 

[Flopgut]

Old pilot mantra: "Who told you punks life was fair?! Tough luck, pay your dues" Blah, blah, blah... Then they go out and have one of their old guy cronies write the Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots ACT so they can stay longer. Amending the Constitution wasn't too much effort to make certain they were being treated fair. Everyone else? Well, not so much.

We see the same type behavior right now in this thread. Guys like Fubijaker-off with the DOH battlecry. Fubi wants DOH cause he knows he's working at a place that is probably going to get bought! SWA guys getting all puffed up cause they happen to be at the top right now.

At some point we are going to have to rededicate ourselves to being ethical. We have a seniority ethics crisis going on right now. ALPA is the worst offender, but I think the problem might be primarily generational. The babyboomer generation is delusional. Especially the pilots. 65 was done wrong, merchandising DOH is wrong, PBS is right up there too (perfecting schedules for super senior types to the extent that the bottom pilots fly only total sh!t schedules), it's all been done wrong.

 

[sbav8r]

May not ever happen, but I commend them for doing something to fix the problems.

http://www.operationorange.org/

 

[Amish RakeFight]

May not ever happen, but I commend them for doing something to fix the problems.

http://www.operationorange.org/

Hey man, the politicans are in on it too. Change will not happen.