AA toxic culture

[On Your Six]

Bottom line- seniority is severely detrimental to the pilots career.

Flamer OY6- did you "choose" poorly at United?

It's been said, but no other profession is so entirely married to their company as a professional pilot. None. No one is as stuck once any amount of seniority has been attained and no other profession as harshly punished by switching companies (povert wages, bottom of the list, after a severely rigorous interview process)than airline pilot. Add to it our strict seniority system has been used extremely effectively against us for a decade and it's by far the stupidest thing we do as pilots. Every mgmt knows that pilots will cut off one of their own nuts before they'd let their company go out of business and start over. They know it and use it as leverage until we are the one's who bail them out.

It's dumb- and we all hate it. We give over control of our lives to a flipping number! We will live in cities we have no desire to, or make commutes that reduce QOL- cross crossing each other in the sky- as one company loses market share and another picks it up.

Pilots are so regimented and uncreative- any thought to fixing this is stomped down by US- the one's who it hampers the most.

I'd say most every pilot in the country is flying BELOW their market wage solely bc of the leverage we give mgmt with our archaic seniority system

At the time I got on, it was the best airline out there. SWA Captains were leaving to become FEs at UAL. Not anymore, and things can change overnight. That's something a lot of you Corndogs should think about, btw. Don't get cocky!


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

I am certain without a doubt that airline managers love the seniority system far more than we will ever know... it's by far their biggest stick in getting what they want out of pilots.... the fear of being that 20 year captain losing his job and starting back over at some 2nd rate outfit is enough to get even the most hardened airline captain to give back 40% in concessions...

Conversely, management doesn't like the seniority system because as pilots get older, and presumably more senior, they start to cost more, with sick time, more vacation, higher rates each year via longevity, etc. Short duration employment contracts would be management's wet dream. Even new LCCs suddenly turn more costly as they get older. Even SWA has a bunch of senior FA's in their DAL base, and that isn't cheap after awhile. Seniority lists are hard to break unless there is a death, and unions or a threat of a union keep them intact.



Godspeed!


OYS

 

[waveflyer]

Believe me, Ive got more than twice the airlines you do under my belt- I know it every day. And fight every day bc of it.
That's not really the point of this thread though is it dick?

You got the best job in the industry and it turned on you- now I FO and it could turn on me- some of that is capitalistic life- the inability to bail on companies who's leaders take advantage of them is something way more diabolical-
No way UAL could hold on to the quality of pilots they have if we had more freedom in our careers. Not one of those high character pilots would stay and work for those piece's of sh/t if it weren't for seniority

 

[waveflyer]

See OY6- that is true- but you can't get past your own assumptions of how it would work- as if what anyone's proposing is becoming non-union and cease collective bargaining-

Again, I never thought such a vast majority of people intelligent enough to fly an airplane would be so uncreative and unable to think outside the box we created in the 40's-
For godsake- please realize that our 1940's union model is not working and make some changes-
There are plenty of union jobs that face the same challenges and aren't as dumb and unimaginative as we are

 

[HalinTexas]

Conversely, management doesn't like the seniority system because as pilots get older, and presumably more senior, they start to cost more, with sick time, more vacation, higher rates each year via longevity, etc. Short duration employment contracts would be management's wet dream. Even new LCCs suddenly turn more costly as they get older. Even SWA has a bunch of senior FA's in their DAL base, and that isn't cheap after awhile. Seniority lists are hard to break unless there is a death, and unions or a threat of a union keep them intact.



Godspeed!


OYS

Conversely......

It's a tradeoff. Mgt. likes seniority because it keeps costs predictable, except when they need to hire a lot. It would be cheaper to hire directly into the seat as conditions are needed. Think of the AMR B777 pilots retiring recently. If they could use "free agency" they could hire directly into the seat and probably pay them less than APA seniority/longevity rules dictate, not to mention the multiple training cycles required vs. the single cycle. They dislike seniority systems because it brings on organized labor and the resultant costs and inflexibility of labor contracts. If there were a free agency system, they might lose pilots should a competitor offer a greater package. Overall, I think they'd give up the seniority system if they had the choice.

Unions LOVE, LOVE, LOVE seniority because it make the membership beholden to them. Pilots really have few choices to improve their condition under the present system, since they can't negotiate on their own.

 

[AC560]

Conversely, management doesn't like the seniority system because as pilots get older, and presumably more senior, they start to cost more, with sick time, more vacation, higher rates each year via longevity, etc.

This is true in non-union shops as well.

HalinTexas is correct the seniority system essentially makes workers into indentured servants. I am a management professional that earns equivalent to a captain at the better paying airlines. Not only do I have the option of going to work for a different company should my company disintegrate but I regularly get solicited for positions with competing companies. Both options are available to me generally with same or better benefits. I have been in my current position for about 3yrs; I get 6 weeks of vacation as an example.

In a non-union environment the company negotiates with each worker. When you are talking about specialty skilled positions the employee almost always has the upper hand. Companies spend a lot of money, time, and effort in ensuring top performers stay and grow in the organization. If a company isn't the most competitive company out there for the work force then its workforce shifts to the competition. Companies also work aggressively to shed poor performers out of the organization.

Many here will say people are unfairly targeted and fired by management when it comes to the poor performer topic. That maybe true in some cases but in 90% of the cases people get fired because they are anti-social, unproductive, and unintelligent miscreants. About 30% of this forum couldn't hold work at McDonald's which is why we have unions, so the 70% can protect the 30% who in prehistoric times would have been thrown off a cliff at birth. It is also always important to note that the 30% will always end up in union leadership positions; not the 70%.

When I managed in union environments it was actually a bit easier. The quality of the work force is roughly equal. The union work force does provide greater stability as the seniority number means you don't have people leaving because they cannot get like paying positions. It is key to ensure you hire the right people because it can be hard to fire union workers. In terms of pay negotiations it was always better/easier then non-union following two simple steps.

One make the union think you are going to scorch the earth which after enough time they always begin to believe. When you have 30yrs invested and can potentially lose everything even a little seed of doubt grows like wild fire.

Two once everyone was sufficiently freaked out you offer the existing work force a small bone in exchange for a B scales and work rule changes for any new hires. Union work forces are about the most self centered groups (see discussion on national seniority list) so the concept of get for me and screw those who come next is a natural thought. When coupled with the bone of a 2% pay raise which when you consider the work force was so freaked they were going to get locked out six weeks ago they are now doing cart wheels and gladly sign the deal. Union leadership is quick to point out that 2% is better then anyone else would get. Of course during same time the non-union office staff was getting 5-30% bonuses and 3-10% base pay increases.

This is how you lose scope, work rules, etc. This works out great for the company as we tend to negotiate over decades to improve the bottom line but unions negotiate over short term contracts. Quite honestly unions have become the best and quickest way to get savings out of an organization. You see it repeated here in every negotiation thread:

1.) Company and union get into death spiral of negotations
2.) 30yr Captain realizes he could be flying a CRJ for $15K a year
3.) Company offers $1.00 raise and 2 bags of peanuts every flight to crew in exchange for 50% wage cut to new hires and outsourcing of any plane under 250 seats.
4.) 30yr Captain gladly signs on the dotted line and ensures he always stores 1 bag of the peanuts under a tree to save in case age 70 doesn't pass.

The only thing that makes this possible is a seniority list which binds you to an organization (indentured servant). You think Microsoft, Google, IBM, etc. could as easily slash costs out of their entire work force? Somebody told a programmer at Google all he was getting was a bag of peanuts he would be out the door for Microsoft or the next hot start up in thirty seconds or less.

 

[HA25]

Conversely, management doesn't like the seniority system because as pilots get older, and presumably more senior, they start to cost more, with sick time, more vacation, higher rates each year via longevity, etc. Short duration employment contracts would be management's wet dream. Even new LCCs suddenly turn more costly as they get older. Even SWA has a bunch of senior FA's in their DAL base, and that isn't cheap after awhile. Seniority lists are hard to break unless there is a death, and unions or a threat of a union keep them intact.



Godspeed!


OYS

Na, I'd say on balance they prefer it to any other method...... the ability (as best explained a post above mine) to hold a 30 year CA by the balls and negotiate based on fear of him winding up on the street is priceless...

On the other hand, if that 30 year captain had a national seniority number that could get him into the left seat with some "seniority" at another carrier, he'd be competitive and when they hired a new captain, he'd be out of that predicament.

 

[slaquer5]

At the time I got on, it was the best airline out there. SWA Captains were leaving to become FEs at UAL. Not anymore, and things can change overnight. That's something a lot of you Corndogs should think about, btw. Don't get cocky!


Godspeed!


OYS

That is an urabn legend Jack azz . I am sure you believe in unicorns also

 

[xrated]

On the other hand, if that 30 year captain had a national seniority number that could get him into the left seat with some "seniority" at another carrier, he'd be competitive and when they hired a new captain, he'd be out of that predicament.

Like a 30 year Great Lakes 1900 capt could become a FedEx 777 captain because Great Lakes went under? (For example)

Still trying to figure out how this national DOH seniority list would work out in real life. IMHO, its a pipe dream thought up by pilots that have either been unlucky or have made bad career decisions, (which often includes bad luck) and will not happen in my lifetime.

 

[HalinTexas]

Like a 30 year Great Lakes 1900 capt could become a FedEx 777 captain because Great Lakes went under? (For example)

Still trying to figure out how this national DOH seniority list would work out in real life. IMHO, its a pipe dream thought up by pilots that have either been unlucky or have made bad career decisions, (which often includes bad luck) and will not happen in my lifetime.

It wouldn't happen in that scenario, however, when 30 yr. 777 CA leaves for whatever reason, he would be compensated at the "30 year" level at the hiring carrier. This doesn't work either, as there are a glut of pilots in this country willing to work for 1st year wages, many for GL wages just to get started. However, I'd never hire anyone that had been at any regional for more than 10 years. There's something wrong there.

If 10,000 pilots disappeared overnight, we'd still have plenty of qualified pilots in this country. IMHO. May not be as many small airplanes, under 100 seat, flying around, but there would still be enough.

However, I could be wrong. I very senior CA on an E145, for example, with the average training program could fly a 777 in this country. With 5000TT I went from a BA4100 CA to an L1011 FO flying around the world. It didn't take any longer than average, but I did have some excellent instructors that forgot more stuff than I know. God bless 'em, I think they're all gone now.

 

[IBNAV8R]

I'm trying to fathom what kind of fantasy world you guys are living in? What other industry would honor your longevity from another company when your skills, at face value (notwithstanding a few weeks of OJT), have nothing more to offer than those of anyone else with similar certificates?

 

[Mamma]

My opinion, a common pay-rate per type of equipment would work better than a seniority system. For example, a 737 pays $100/hr for an FO and $170 for a Capt. Industry standard. Companies can go as far above this rate with raises or benefits but not below. If you are a 777 captain with United and wanted to go to Delta, you move laterally at the industry rate. If you want to stay at Alaska, get the 737 type rating as an FO and apply to move up otherwise stay an FO. You could also apply to another carrier who is looking for 737 Capt newhires or a different domicile you would like to live in. You may have to pay for your type rating but look at it as a investment in yourself. Just like higher education (MBAs) for business folks. Retirements, growth and other vacancies would keep movement going forward. This would take care of portability; shiny new jet syndrome; new carrier entrants who cannot afford to do business without subsidies from employees. Companies would like this because it would reduce training costs in hard times and also create a known cost with our wages.

 

[HalinTexas]

I'm trying to fathom what kind of fantasy world you guys are living in? What other industry would honor your longevity from another company when your skills, at face value (notwithstanding a few weeks of OJT), have nothing more to offer than those of anyone else with similar certificates?

Have you interviewed for a flying job lately? They don't really care if you can fly, they just want you to play well with others.

 

[HA25]

Like a 30 year Great Lakes 1900 capt could become a FedEx 777 captain because Great Lakes went under? (For example)

Still trying to figure out how this national DOH seniority list would work out in real life. IMHO, its a pipe dream thought up by pilots that have either been unlucky or have made bad career decisions, (which often includes bad luck) and will not happen in my lifetime.

if he held a 777 type rating with 500 hours or something, and was current, I imagine yes...


In reality, the 777 guy would be a 30 year AA or CAL guy... ?

 

[Flyby1206]

Never. Going. To. Happen.

 

[HA25]

Never. Going. To. Happen.

Never. Said. It. Would.

 

[waveflyer]

Never. Going. To. Happen.

Then what's YOUR solution dbag?

You and the multitudes of pilots who think like you are why we have such a lack of career freedom-- and continue to get taken advantage of.

Newsflash- our system worked before deregulation bc you could expect your airline to last your career- now? Can ANY of us truly expect our airline to last 30 years?

 

[HA25]

Newsflash- our system worked before deregulation bc you could expect your airline to last your career- now? Can ANY of us truly expect our airline to last 30 years?

And that's just it... most of these idiots have no idea that this is the case... they see their airline as an empire, going no where.. and expect to retire rich from it... reality is, based on the history since 1977, they'll unlikely do so and there's an evil part of me that wishes they experience the same fate as those who ended their days at Eastern, Pan Am or more recently ATA... just so they can get a taste of the real world... but I'm sure they will.. I'd bank on it as a matter of fact.

 

[chase]

Pilots complaining about a "seniority system" is like a lifeguard complaining that they don't like to get wet.

Please, can we put it to rest and move on to topics that has some point?

Thinking outside the box is fine but one must also deal with reality and understand what the term futile means.

Seniority is good for some, bad for others; how is that different than anything else. Different airlines operate with different business models and to expect to force upon them an employment protocol of having to hire pilots from a national seniority list is nonsense.

The topic of the thread is "AA Toxic Culture" not "why the seniority system is bad".

I have many friends at AA and they are great folks. I understand their frustration.

They as a company (management and employees) are doing something however that is one of the finest things that is occurring in the industry and that is supporting a non-profit, Snowball Express, from Dec 8-13 in Dallas, TX.

Their pilots, flight attendants are working for free; management is working with the volunteers to bring over 1700 widows and children of military fallen heroes to Dallas, TX for 5 days, 4 nights, all expenses paid to be with other children of those military members who have died while serving since 9/11. It is the largest airlift of its kind by any airline...a very noble cause by some great airline employees.

Thanks to all of the AA employees and other vols who are helping out....for those few days they are working toward a common goal and it is a wonderful thing to see firsthand.

Sorry for the diversion from the fantasy of a national seniority list to the reality of an airline and its employees doings something truly remarkable that changes the lives of thousands in a positive way.

 

[Kalifornia]

There's not a chance a national seniority lists will ever work. There are a thousand variables with the most important one being the egos of each pilot hiring division. It's taken forever just to get United and Continental pilots figured out and they are similar carriers. The much better solution is to encourage airlines to have higher pay and work conditions especially for new hires so no one pilot is scraping buy trying to commute to New York. Which also means discouraging pilots for working for bottom of the barrel carriers. The quality of life should be divided better within a carrier like a good corporate pilot job.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Like a 30 year Great Lakes 1900 capt could become a FedEx 777 captain because Great Lakes went under? (For example)

Are there any 30 year Great Lakes CAs? So this example is ridiculous on its face.

Still trying to figure out how this national DOH seniority list would work out in real life..

Here's how it would be valuable: In the case of a merger, SLIs would be straight DoH. Additionally, if an airline went belly up, there could be a central pool of available pilots ranked by NSL DoH where employers could go for interviewees.

However, if you voluntarily leave your employer for greener pastures, you would go to the bottom of the new seniority list while maintaining your NSL DoH number for future reference.

 

[BrickTop]

hey at least it's a way to keep some movement going while they wait for age 65 to catch up

One of the most IMMATURE and distasteful comments I have ever read on these boards.

By the looks of your avatar I'm going to venture you are another mid 20s arrogant momma's boy with an over inflated sense of self-worth and a wasted investment by your employer who only justified your hiring through mandated workforce "diversity." On a personal note, If you are ever in MSP and would like a lesson on how to save your teeth and self embarrassment from public humiliation, send me a PM and we can arrange to teach you some manners. GROW UP.

 

[scoreboardII]

Pilots complaining about a "seniority system" is like a lifeguard complaining that they don't like to get wet.

Please, can we put it to rest and move on to topics that has some point?

Thinking outside the box is fine but one must also deal with reality and understand what the term futile means.

Seniority is good for some, bad for others; how is that different than anything else. Different airlines operate with different business models and to expect to force upon them an employment protocol of having to hire pilots from a national seniority list is nonsense.

The topic of the thread is "AA Toxic Culture" not "why the seniority system is bad".

I have many friends at AA and they are great folks. I understand their frustration.

They as a company (management and employees) are doing something however that is one of the finest things that is occurring in the industry and that is supporting a non-profit, Snowball Express, from Dec 8-13 in Dallas, TX.

Their pilots, flight attendants are working for free; management is working with the volunteers to bring over 1700 widows and children of military fallen heroes to Dallas, TX for 5 days, 4 nights, all expenses paid to be with other children of those military members who have died while serving since 9/11. It is the largest airlift of its kind by any airline...a very noble cause by some great airline employees.

Thanks to all of the AA employees and other vols who are helping out....for those few days they are working toward a common goal and it is a wonderful thing to see firsthand.

Sorry for the diversion from the fantasy of a national seniority list to the reality of an airline and its employees doings something truly remarkable that changes the lives of thousands in a positive way.

Wow, thats a new low in low class thread hijacking and cheap plugging of a good cause.

 

[scoreboardII]

We are check out clerks.

If after 20 years of working as a clerk at Walmart you quit and go to Target, you start at entry level wage for a Target checkout clerk. You don't start as mid-level management.

Stop dreaming of an industry wide seniority list, it won't happen because the companies won't let it happen.

 

[RT8VA]

You guys are all looking at the seniority system as the penalty of a lifetime because you look at the lateral success stories and you cringe that we cant move laterally. The truth is for every one of those there are workers that spent years at a company and because they were deemed less productive then their replacement worker or not up with whatever the company needed or simply not a friend with the guy making the choice that were put out on the street with a few months severance pay and a good luck. The job market in all jobs is pretty dry right now and the more senior we get the more we cost the company and the less production we have to put out for the same or more compensation. Seniority has it's penalties but it also has it's relaxing parts too, we don't have to worry about whether it is our turn on the chopping block and then end of every quarter once we reach a certain level of seniority. Every one here thinks it is easy to leave aviation and work in the free market, if you have friends that do things other then fly you know that isn't always the truth and never with out hard work.

The origianal thing about this thread was about AA pilots who are feeling the pressure good luck to you guys I hope it all works out you deserve it. Just remember the office doesn't change and the guys and girls you are flying with will be the same before and after a contract try to enjoy what you love about the job forget about management posturing that you cant control and enjoy your families or friends.

Peace

 

[IBNAV8R]

The ironic thing is that AA is the poster-child for the want of a national seniority list.

 

[flythere]

if it wasnt for this seniority system, pilots would be free to move/leave AA for other carriers. Maybe its time to revisit the system.

Sounds like one of those OWS protesters! Let me guess, you just finished college/flight school with a mountain of debt. The prospects of starting at Skywest or one of the other regionals making $20.00 an hour is just not fair! So YOU, want to jump right to the left seat of a wide-body so YOU can make decent wages right?!?!

Screw all the rest of us who have worked at these crummy wages, sacrificed years of our lives and who were aware of these things when we jumped into the profession!!

WELL, I've got a news flash for you,,,,,, If you don't like the system get out!! This is america, at last check a free country! Nobody is forcing you to stay in this line of work!!!!! If you don't like it, go become a politician or a doctor.

You sound like one of those whinners out there demanding that the govt forgive your student loans, force those with money to pay for those without!

If this county, this system is sooo screwed up, then riddle me this, why do people from all over this planet come here to get ahead?? If this county, this system is so screwed up that a small minority want to fundamentally change our system, why are people literally killing themselves trying to get here?? They stow away in the gear wells of airliners, they shove themselves dozens at a time into shipping containers, float in overloaded boats and walk dozens of miles across the desert to get here!!

If it's that bad, why are they still trying to get here???????????????????

Why don't you whinners shut up, take a bath and get a job!!!! You may have to work two or three jobs until you make it, but atleast you have that opportunity!!!!! NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE!!!!!

I'm done ranting, next!!!!!

 

[Flopgut]

Old pilot mantra: "Who told you punks life was fair?! Tough luck, pay your dues" Blah, blah, blah... Then they go out and have one of their old guy cronies write the Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots ACT so they can stay longer. Amending the Constitution wasn't too much effort to make certain they were being treated fair. Everyone else? Well, not so much.

We see the same type behavior right now in this thread. Guys like Fubijaker-off with the DOH battlecry. Fubi wants DOH cause he knows he's working at a place that is probably going to get bought! SWA guys getting all puffed up cause they happen to be at the top right now.

At some point we are going to have to rededicate ourselves to being ethical. We have a seniority ethics crisis going on right now. ALPA is the worst offender, but I think the problem might be primarily generational. The babyboomer generation is delusional. Especially the pilots. 65 was done wrong, merchandising DOH is wrong, PBS is right up there too (perfecting schedules for super senior types to the extent that the bottom pilots fly only total sh!t schedules), it's all been done wrong.

 

[sbav8r]

May not ever happen, but I commend them for doing something to fix the problems.

http://www.operationorange.org/

 

[Amish RakeFight]

May not ever happen, but I commend them for doing something to fix the problems.

http://www.operationorange.org/

Hey man, the politicans are in on it too. Change will not happen.