AA toxic culture

[On Your Six]

Bottom line- seniority is severely detrimental to the pilots career.

Flamer OY6- did you "choose" poorly at United?

It's been said, but no other profession is so entirely married to their company as a professional pilot. None. No one is as stuck once any amount of seniority has been attained and no other profession as harshly punished by switching companies (povert wages, bottom of the list, after a severely rigorous interview process)than airline pilot. Add to it our strict seniority system has been used extremely effectively against us for a decade and it's by far the stupidest thing we do as pilots. Every mgmt knows that pilots will cut off one of their own nuts before they'd let their company go out of business and start over. They know it and use it as leverage until we are the one's who bail them out.

It's dumb- and we all hate it. We give over control of our lives to a flipping number! We will live in cities we have no desire to, or make commutes that reduce QOL- cross crossing each other in the sky- as one company loses market share and another picks it up.

Pilots are so regimented and uncreative- any thought to fixing this is stomped down by US- the one's who it hampers the most.

I'd say most every pilot in the country is flying BELOW their market wage solely bc of the leverage we give mgmt with our archaic seniority system

At the time I got on, it was the best airline out there. SWA Captains were leaving to become FEs at UAL. Not anymore, and things can change overnight. That's something a lot of you Corndogs should think about, btw. Don't get cocky!


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

I am certain without a doubt that airline managers love the seniority system far more than we will ever know... it's by far their biggest stick in getting what they want out of pilots.... the fear of being that 20 year captain losing his job and starting back over at some 2nd rate outfit is enough to get even the most hardened airline captain to give back 40% in concessions...

Conversely, management doesn't like the seniority system because as pilots get older, and presumably more senior, they start to cost more, with sick time, more vacation, higher rates each year via longevity, etc. Short duration employment contracts would be management's wet dream. Even new LCCs suddenly turn more costly as they get older. Even SWA has a bunch of senior FA's in their DAL base, and that isn't cheap after awhile. Seniority lists are hard to break unless there is a death, and unions or a threat of a union keep them intact.



Godspeed!


OYS

 

[waveflyer]

Believe me, Ive got more than twice the airlines you do under my belt- I know it every day. And fight every day bc of it.
That's not really the point of this thread though is it dick?

You got the best job in the industry and it turned on you- now I FO and it could turn on me- some of that is capitalistic life- the inability to bail on companies who's leaders take advantage of them is something way more diabolical-
No way UAL could hold on to the quality of pilots they have if we had more freedom in our careers. Not one of those high character pilots would stay and work for those piece's of sh/t if it weren't for seniority

 

[waveflyer]

See OY6- that is true- but you can't get past your own assumptions of how it would work- as if what anyone's proposing is becoming non-union and cease collective bargaining-

Again, I never thought such a vast majority of people intelligent enough to fly an airplane would be so uncreative and unable to think outside the box we created in the 40's-
For godsake- please realize that our 1940's union model is not working and make some changes-
There are plenty of union jobs that face the same challenges and aren't as dumb and unimaginative as we are

 

[HalinTexas]

Conversely, management doesn't like the seniority system because as pilots get older, and presumably more senior, they start to cost more, with sick time, more vacation, higher rates each year via longevity, etc. Short duration employment contracts would be management's wet dream. Even new LCCs suddenly turn more costly as they get older. Even SWA has a bunch of senior FA's in their DAL base, and that isn't cheap after awhile. Seniority lists are hard to break unless there is a death, and unions or a threat of a union keep them intact.



Godspeed!


OYS

Conversely......

It's a tradeoff. Mgt. likes seniority because it keeps costs predictable, except when they need to hire a lot. It would be cheaper to hire directly into the seat as conditions are needed. Think of the AMR B777 pilots retiring recently. If they could use "free agency" they could hire directly into the seat and probably pay them less than APA seniority/longevity rules dictate, not to mention the multiple training cycles required vs. the single cycle. They dislike seniority systems because it brings on organized labor and the resultant costs and inflexibility of labor contracts. If there were a free agency system, they might lose pilots should a competitor offer a greater package. Overall, I think they'd give up the seniority system if they had the choice.

Unions LOVE, LOVE, LOVE seniority because it make the membership beholden to them. Pilots really have few choices to improve their condition under the present system, since they can't negotiate on their own.

 

[AC560]

Conversely, management doesn't like the seniority system because as pilots get older, and presumably more senior, they start to cost more, with sick time, more vacation, higher rates each year via longevity, etc.

This is true in non-union shops as well.

HalinTexas is correct the seniority system essentially makes workers into indentured servants. I am a management professional that earns equivalent to a captain at the better paying airlines. Not only do I have the option of going to work for a different company should my company disintegrate but I regularly get solicited for positions with competing companies. Both options are available to me generally with same or better benefits. I have been in my current position for about 3yrs; I get 6 weeks of vacation as an example.

In a non-union environment the company negotiates with each worker. When you are talking about specialty skilled positions the employee almost always has the upper hand. Companies spend a lot of money, time, and effort in ensuring top performers stay and grow in the organization. If a company isn't the most competitive company out there for the work force then its workforce shifts to the competition. Companies also work aggressively to shed poor performers out of the organization.

Many here will say people are unfairly targeted and fired by management when it comes to the poor performer topic. That maybe true in some cases but in 90% of the cases people get fired because they are anti-social, unproductive, and unintelligent miscreants. About 30% of this forum couldn't hold work at McDonald's which is why we have unions, so the 70% can protect the 30% who in prehistoric times would have been thrown off a cliff at birth. It is also always important to note that the 30% will always end up in union leadership positions; not the 70%.

When I managed in union environments it was actually a bit easier. The quality of the work force is roughly equal. The union work force does provide greater stability as the seniority number means you don't have people leaving because they cannot get like paying positions. It is key to ensure you hire the right people because it can be hard to fire union workers. In terms of pay negotiations it was always better/easier then non-union following two simple steps.

One make the union think you are going to scorch the earth which after enough time they always begin to believe. When you have 30yrs invested and can potentially lose everything even a little seed of doubt grows like wild fire.

Two once everyone was sufficiently freaked out you offer the existing work force a small bone in exchange for a B scales and work rule changes for any new hires. Union work forces are about the most self centered groups (see discussion on national seniority list) so the concept of get for me and screw those who come next is a natural thought. When coupled with the bone of a 2% pay raise which when you consider the work force was so freaked they were going to get locked out six weeks ago they are now doing cart wheels and gladly sign the deal. Union leadership is quick to point out that 2% is better then anyone else would get. Of course during same time the non-union office staff was getting 5-30% bonuses and 3-10% base pay increases.

This is how you lose scope, work rules, etc. This works out great for the company as we tend to negotiate over decades to improve the bottom line but unions negotiate over short term contracts. Quite honestly unions have become the best and quickest way to get savings out of an organization. You see it repeated here in every negotiation thread:

1.) Company and union get into death spiral of negotations
2.) 30yr Captain realizes he could be flying a CRJ for $15K a year
3.) Company offers $1.00 raise and 2 bags of peanuts every flight to crew in exchange for 50% wage cut to new hires and outsourcing of any plane under 250 seats.
4.) 30yr Captain gladly signs on the dotted line and ensures he always stores 1 bag of the peanuts under a tree to save in case age 70 doesn't pass.

The only thing that makes this possible is a seniority list which binds you to an organization (indentured servant). You think Microsoft, Google, IBM, etc. could as easily slash costs out of their entire work force? Somebody told a programmer at Google all he was getting was a bag of peanuts he would be out the door for Microsoft or the next hot start up in thirty seconds or less.

 

[HA25]

Conversely, management doesn't like the seniority system because as pilots get older, and presumably more senior, they start to cost more, with sick time, more vacation, higher rates each year via longevity, etc. Short duration employment contracts would be management's wet dream. Even new LCCs suddenly turn more costly as they get older. Even SWA has a bunch of senior FA's in their DAL base, and that isn't cheap after awhile. Seniority lists are hard to break unless there is a death, and unions or a threat of a union keep them intact.



Godspeed!


OYS

Na, I'd say on balance they prefer it to any other method...... the ability (as best explained a post above mine) to hold a 30 year CA by the balls and negotiate based on fear of him winding up on the street is priceless...

On the other hand, if that 30 year captain had a national seniority number that could get him into the left seat with some "seniority" at another carrier, he'd be competitive and when they hired a new captain, he'd be out of that predicament.

 

[slaquer5]

At the time I got on, it was the best airline out there. SWA Captains were leaving to become FEs at UAL. Not anymore, and things can change overnight. That's something a lot of you Corndogs should think about, btw. Don't get cocky!


Godspeed!


OYS

That is an urabn legend Jack azz . I am sure you believe in unicorns also

 

[xrated]

On the other hand, if that 30 year captain had a national seniority number that could get him into the left seat with some "seniority" at another carrier, he'd be competitive and when they hired a new captain, he'd be out of that predicament.

Like a 30 year Great Lakes 1900 capt could become a FedEx 777 captain because Great Lakes went under? (For example)

Still trying to figure out how this national DOH seniority list would work out in real life. IMHO, its a pipe dream thought up by pilots that have either been unlucky or have made bad career decisions, (which often includes bad luck) and will not happen in my lifetime.

 

[HalinTexas]

Like a 30 year Great Lakes 1900 capt could become a FedEx 777 captain because Great Lakes went under? (For example)

Still trying to figure out how this national DOH seniority list would work out in real life. IMHO, its a pipe dream thought up by pilots that have either been unlucky or have made bad career decisions, (which often includes bad luck) and will not happen in my lifetime.

It wouldn't happen in that scenario, however, when 30 yr. 777 CA leaves for whatever reason, he would be compensated at the "30 year" level at the hiring carrier. This doesn't work either, as there are a glut of pilots in this country willing to work for 1st year wages, many for GL wages just to get started. However, I'd never hire anyone that had been at any regional for more than 10 years. There's something wrong there.

If 10,000 pilots disappeared overnight, we'd still have plenty of qualified pilots in this country. IMHO. May not be as many small airplanes, under 100 seat, flying around, but there would still be enough.

However, I could be wrong. I very senior CA on an E145, for example, with the average training program could fly a 777 in this country. With 5000TT I went from a BA4100 CA to an L1011 FO flying around the world. It didn't take any longer than average, but I did have some excellent instructors that forgot more stuff than I know. God bless 'em, I think they're all gone now.