AA toxic culture

[sbav8r]

If you take the time to read the full proposed legislation, you will see that someone is already trying to make this pay scale happen. It's worth your time to read the text.


4-7 of 8

operationorange.org
2. Minimum hourly rates of pay for payable hours in section 4.F shall be:

a. $300.00 per hour for widebody aircraft PIC/Captain,
b. $225.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft PIC/Captain,
c. $200.00 per hour for widebody aircraft SIC/First Officer,
Fair Treatment of Experienced Pilots Act - Part 2
d. $150.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft SIC/First Officer.

 

[flythere]

This profession is like lots of other jobs; labor, factory, retail to name a few! If a clerk leaves their job at walmart for target does that person
get to negotiate a salery at Target? I would think not! When the line worker at the GM plant gets tired of working there and wants to go over
to Toyota, does he get to keep his senority because he worked the line at GM?

What about WaMu, remember when they went out of business
a couple of years ago? So should all of those tellers and bankers go over to B of A and demand they be hired with their senority from WaMu?
Stepping ahead of all those B of A employees, some whom have been there over 30 yrs??

We are special, but not that special, we are not top flight doctors or attorneys or corporate managers with unique skills, we are pilots working for airlines. We as individuals cannot walk into another airline and negotiate a higher salery or want to keep our relative senority because I worked at XYZ airline for 20 years.

We chose the companies we work for and for some of us, we were the target of mergers or acquisitons. For those folks I feel bad when thing's
go south, but for the rest of us we chose our companies, maybe we chose wisely maybe not! When you were first hired at United or American or Frontier maybe thing's were going good, profits were up or maybe thing's were looking up. At any rate, now that times are bad and your
companies are faltering you want to rewrite the script!

If you went back and asked any United or American pilot if they had a choice between their current airline or Southwest or Alaska when they were originally hired, which would they choose??

I've heard the stories of guys/gals getting hired at Southwest or Alaska pre 9/11, then getting the call from UA, American etc, jump ship during training to get that better job! Ask those same guys/gals now where would they rather be today?

So you want to have the govt or the union dictate to a private or publicly held company how much they should pay their employees and when they should get raises?? Remember a guy named Stalin, what about Mao, Moe whatever his name?? Communism/marxism is not the answer, it has failed around the world, I don't care what your liberal professor has told you!

Is there corruption in corporate america? Sure, is there corruption in the government? you bet! Look at the story that broke last week about members of congress purchasing stocks with inside information about the companies and how they and their collegues would vote on legislation affecting those companies! Free market would be allowing businesses to close if they can't survive in the market-place!

Would a pilot at Southwest, Alaska, FedEx, UPS or Delta want to change the system? So you want to walk into UPS, take a sim ride and jump
ahead of 3,000 pilots? Am I afraid of competition? No, ask those that went to work for SkyBus a few years ago, remember them?

Is our system perfect? No, can we improve it, sure. But to blow the whole system up because a few are unhappy is ridiculous. Like I said there is nobody holding a gun to your head, pull the trigger and change professions, become an engineer, then you can set your own price, become a doctor, then you can negotiate a salery and other perks!

Good Luck in your future endeavors!

 

[livin'thesim]

Rescaling the longevity-based system front-loads a pilot's income.

A company that becomes much more profitable can hire away experienced talent by offering those experienced pilots a living wage.

The best part about this method is that it rewards pilots evenly according to the productivity of a unit of pilot labor.

An FO on a 737 earning 119/hr is not more productive than an FO on the same aircraft earning 74/hr.

True, a probationary pilot may be less productive than a fully qualified pilot, and therefore a probationary scale for the first year or two is something that most pilots could endure. (You do have some savings, right?)

Rescaling the longevity pay gives the high-time guys portability. It gives the new guys a living wage.

A good airline could steal talented pilots away from a bad airline.

Nowhere is it written in stone that unionization, seniority, and longevity pay must ALWAYS be deployed in the ways we used them in the past.


The BIGGEST benefit is that it works against management gutting of contracts by scaring those with lots of longevity. It allows pilot groups to call management's bluff.

"Screw with me, I will quit. I will take 20% cut to switch carriers." No longer do you have to drop from over $100k to $35k.

This method also means that when an airline folds, you can hire the qualified pilots at a wage that does not insult their professional status, instead of hiring low-timers who are willing to work for peanuts.

This allows talented pilots who have paid their dues to remain in their chosen profession.

 

[livin'thesim]

The problem with mandated minimum pay rates is that it is will probably allow good carriers to push wages down to the minimum with no probability of upward gains.

It also creates a one-size-fits-all approach to private industry. Wage and price controls usually end up having the opposite of the intended effect. No one ever seems to learn this lesson.

Ending steeply scaled longevity pay variance is something that each pilot group can enforce individually. It DOES NOT require industry consensus. It does not required all airlines to adopt it for it to BEGIN working.

It is not that radical of an idea, really. The position of pilot has become a labor commodity, with no notable specialization within the profession.

A single company paying widely varying rates of pay to two equally productive employees is illogical.

For all those who think that pay-for-productivity means that a 757 CA should make more than a DC9 CA, well then why should two equally productive DC9 CAs make widely differing wages?

 

[livin'thesim]

By the way, my method also is more "free-market" - it is the labor group freely deciding to change how pay is apportioned over one's career.

The minimum-wage-scale folks, while well-intentioned, are pushing for a more socialist, government-control method.

My method requires no agreement from legislators at all. It only requires one pilot group to see the benefits of the method and to act on it.

 

[HA25]

If you take the time to read the full proposed legislation, you will see that someone is already trying to make this pay scale happen. It's worth your time to read the text.


4-7 of 8

operationorange.org
2. Minimum hourly rates of pay for payable hours in section 4.F shall be:

a. $300.00 per hour for widebody aircraft PIC/Captain,
b. $225.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft PIC/Captain,
c. $200.00 per hour for widebody aircraft SIC/First Officer,
Fair Treatment of Experienced Pilots Act - Part 2
d. $150.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft SIC/First Officer.

I tellya, if we had a proper trade union like many professions in the world that worked together rather than this BS corportized ALPA mess we're stuck with and it ran like the European Guilds... they set a minimum pay for anything and everything.. none of this negotiation between an MEC and an airline.... the pay rate would be set at the national level and crammed down the throat of every carrier that wants to play "I can run an airline"

 

[waveflyer]

Flythere- I am a southwest pilot and would like to change the system. You're not even reading livinthesim's post- just going off on some far-right rant tangents. You just sound dumb.
Read what livinthesim is writing and tell me why we dont implement that gradually at WN?

Btw- where do you work?

 

[dragontamer]

Flythere -- you're about the only one making sense the last couple of pages. For all the communists -- How about individual companies decide how much and who they hire. I'll say it right here--if my company goes under, I will look elsewhere and when hired, would never expect to be placed above folks that were already there. What a bunch of entitled BS! We all take our chances but if we get knocked down in this very tough industry, we pick ourselves up, dust off and continue on or search for work in another industry. Or, I guess, some lie in the dirt and cry that life is not fair. There have been a lot of folks that had to start over for lower payer at a lower level in a separate company during this recession--it sucks but it's life.

For the American folks, please do not read the above as directed at you in any way. I feel for you and your families and hope the future turns out OK.

BTW - I'm a SWA guy also--obviously not in sync w/ Waveflyer.

 

[waveflyer]

Few are dragon tamer- but I'll still buy you a round-
That said, you also haven't read what livinthesim wrote- he didn't say any of what you countered with- so how about countering livinthesim's very capitalistic proposal.(?)

And be careful swa guys- it's a long career and Like everyone, we're a few greedy, hostile MBAs away from not being a winner- wanting change of our pay system is about putting yourself in your possible future and seeing if the end loaded pay disparities are really all that wise -
Oh- and you do work for the one airline run by democrats- and the ethos of the democratic capitalist are 99% why WN is such a great place to work- be careful when you equate liberal to commies- you piss on Herb when you do.

 

[HA25]

Flythere -- you're about the only one making sense the last couple of pages. For all the communists -- How about individual companies decide how much and who they hire. I'll say it right here--if my company goes under, I will look elsewhere and when hired, would never expect to be placed above folks that were already there. What a bunch of entitled BS! We all take our chances but if we get knocked down in this very tough industry, we pick ourselves up, dust off and continue on or search for work in another industry. Or, I guess, some lie in the dirt and cry that life is not fair. There have been a lot of folks that had to start over for lower payer at a lower level in a separate company during this recession--it sucks but it's life.

For the American folks, please do not read the above as directed at you in any way. I feel for you and your families and hope the future turns out OK.

BTW - I'm a SWA guy also--obviously not in sync w/ Waveflyer.

spoken just like a "I've got mine, you get yours" ladder puller....

Hope WN keeps on making it work and doesn't go the way of every other airline over history and you don't find yourself that high time, well paid and OUT OF WORK pilot looking to take care of his family on $40/hr at a 4th rate airline..

Life's good... thank God for it, cause your skill had nothing to do with it, trust me.

 

[flythere]

CAUTION:

Many pilots are financially illiterate and will think that such a system would be "screwing" them out of high pay later in life. These people are unfamiliar with a concept called "the time value of money".

The more that pay is front-loaded, the more of your total career pay is in your own hands and control earlier for investing, paying off student loans, whatever.

And if your company goes bankrupt, you are better off since you earned more of your career long-term earnings before the bankruptcy.

The huge scale difference between bottom and top is stupid and irrational.

So with that logic then you want to restructure the entire western pay and benefit system?? Tell me what job a person starts out making equal wages as a person whom as been at that same job for 20 yrs?? Does a police officer or a firefighter start out making top scale wages? Does a school teacher start out making top scale wages?? Does the auto mechanic at the toyota dealer start out making top scale or mid range salery?? No, they start out at entry level pay at the company they choose to work for.

So by your logic then a guy who flew -8's for Mesa for 6 yrs should walk into Southwest or FedEx and make the same as an F/O who's been there for 9 yrs??

Certain workers in specialized fields or pro athelets can demad or negotiate pay based on skills or performance, unfortunatley we can't! As long as you get airlines that want to come into a market and under cut the competition, to run them out, we'll have this system. By forcing all airlines to pay the same, based on a national scale, would be like saying all quarterbacks in the nfl can only be payed $XX.XX

If an airline wants to pay it's employees a lower wage, but give then other perks, then so be it! Let it be between that company, that labor group and ultimatley the people who pay for that service! Not some govt agency or some union back east!

Again, I hope nobody is forcing you guys to stay in this terrible profession or live in this screwed up country! I hear airlines in India, China and other parts of the world are hiring, and they like to hire american pilots, maybe some of you should consider looking into these great job opportunities!!!


http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Se...Openings-Pilot-Jobs-By-Region/8/International

http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/jobs/pilots_jobs/

http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/browse/pilot.htm

http://www.flightwork.com/pilot-jobs.html


This BK filing that AMR just announced will be interesting. I wish them the best and hope cool heads and rational solutions will prevail!!!!

 

[sbav8r]

Rational solutions will not prevail. Execs will prevail, and subsequently bail with billions.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for capitalism and the free market; however, we don't work in anything resembling a free market. Have you read the RLA? None of the other trade groups you mentioned have the constraints that have been forced upon us. The current system, designed by corporate executives, is failing this profession and needs fixing. You're a professional aviator, and you deserve to be compensated for the valuable skill that you posses, and you should not be artificially fused to a company that falters due to poor management and corporate raiders. The executives have created a system that greatly benefits them, and there is nothing wrong with us as a profession demanding the same securities and benefits.

 

[livin'thesim]

Flythere-

I would try to explain to you what you are misunderstanding about my proposal, but the truth is that you have already decided that you are against whatever it is, even though I can tell that you don't understand the proposal.

You seem to suffer from "opposite-man" syndrome. You're here for a fight. I won't give you one.

You are spouting blunt-instrument platitudes, and I will not dull the fine edge of reason against the granite slab of reactionary "thought".

 

[HA25]

Flythere-

I would try to explain to you what you are misunderstanding about my proposal, but the truth is that you have already decided that you are against whatever it is, even though I can tell that you don't understand the proposal.

You seem to suffer from "opposite-man" syndrome. You're here for a fight. I won't give you one.

You are spouting blunt-instrument platitudes, and I will not dull the fine edge of reason against the granite slab of reactionary "thought".

You nailed it... he's either set in his ways or a Chief Pilot / DO or higher..

 

[flythere]

You nailed it... he's either set in his ways or a Chief Pilot / DO or higher..

you can say I'm set in my ways!! Been around a long time, seen enough over the years to form my own opinion! Just expressing my opinion, that's still allowed isn't it?!?!